Bruce Gray vs. Bill Springfield

[loki_pittman]

This is not meant to start any type of feud or flaming. I am only interested in hearing from some one who has had work done on a USP by both Gray and Springfield. It would have to be on two separate USP's of course. I am looking for a comparison b/w the trigger jobs they offer. I have read here on this forum that both do great work. The major difference being 1. Price 2. That Gray refinishes the internal parts. The USP's that I own where all purchased second hand and I have no qualms about the internal parts not being refinished unless this leads to other issues such as corrosion or functionality issues. If leaving the parts unfinished does cause issues, what are they? Thanks in advance for yalls help.

[smfoushee]

I won't get into comparisons since I've only had my gun worked on by Bill, but I'd email him and ask that question, he's pretty good at responding to any of your questions.

[ptechjpjr]

I had trigger work done on my USP by a well known gunsmith (to be fair it was neither one of the guys you are asking about), and he did not refinish the parts and I had nothing but problems as corrosion started to set in. Before everyone says that I didn't take care of my pistol, I clean my pistols every time I shoot them and I have no corrosion problems with any of my other pistols.

After my experience, I would never have work done on my HK's that would leave the internals without the coating. To solve my pistols problem, I sent it in to Travis at HK and had him convert it to the "Combat Competiton" trigger setup and had him replace any part that was altered in any way. My trigger is awesome now and shows no signs of going downhill like it did before.

Just my 2 cents.

[P7rancher]

I am also curious about this comparison.

Has no one had Gray do any trigger work on their HK's?

P7

[Cylinder Head]

I had trigger work done on my USP by a well known gunsmith (to be fair it was neither one of the guys you are asking about), and he did not refinish the parts and I had nothing but problems as corrosion started to set in. Before everyone says that I didn't take care of my pistol, I clean my pistols every time I shoot them and I have no corrosion problems with any of my other pistols.

After my experience, I would never have work done on my HK's that would leave the internals without the coating. To solve my pistols problem, I sent it in to Travis at HK and had him convert it to the "Combat Competiton" trigger setup and had him replace any part that was altered in any way. My trigger is awesome now and shows no signs of going downhill like it did before.

Just my 2 cents.

How long until the corrosion issues became apparent?

[Sidewinder6]

Bill does outstanding trigger work in a day or two.
Gray is a Custom Racegun guy with a longer turn around on work to be completed.

Not fair to compare the two because of the vast differences in the scope of work performed.

[Germanic]

Bill does outstanding trigger work in a day or two.
Gray is a Custom Racegun guy with a longer turn around on work to be completed.

Not fair to compare the two because of the vast differences in the scope of work performed.

FALSE...

Bruce and his team also does defense/carry action work. I can't comment on the turn around, but GGI certainly has a solid reputation for his action work on duty pistols as well as competition guns.

[D-Man]

I've had Grayguns work on my Sig P226, and they do an awesome job.

I think what Sidewinder6 was trying to say that Grayguns tends to be a full-service shop where most people probably send guns to have multiple things done to it, whereas most looking at Bill Springfield end up only getting the trigger worked on.

[ptechjpjr]

How long until the corrosion issues became apparent?

Trigger felt great in single action and pretty nice in double action when I got it back. After a few months or so, the double action started to get sticky and then just got progressively worse as more time went on.

I'll state it again. I would never get any trigger work done on any HK again unless the parts were going to be refinished with corrosion protection.

[AWD]

Screw that... shouldn't some sort of refinishing work on the "modified" parts come with the trigger job?

[Sidewinder6]

I've had Grayguns work on my Sig P226, and they do an awesome job.

I think what Sidewinder6 was trying to say that Grayguns tends to be a full-service shop where most people probably send guns to have multiple things done to it, whereas most looking at Bill Springfield end up only getting the trigger worked on.

Thank You!

[rivers]

I've had light LEM conversions done to two USPf .45, one by HK and the other by Bruce Gray. Can't tell the difference, they are both excellent. But these were really just parts installations. I have met Bruce and taken a couple of 3-day courses from him. That said, I would have complete confidence in his ability to tune any pistol to my specs. His shooting courses are excellent too!

I remember that the only delay with Bruce doing the LEM install was the scarcity of the kit. Once he had that, it was quick. I know he is regarded just slightly lower than a deity among SIG owners. Since Bruce shot for HK before SIG picked him up, he is very knowledgeable on USP, P2000, and probably the new HK45 and P30 as well.

[Peter Venkman]

I have a USPc 45 at GGI currently for the Carry Action Service and Heine straight eight QWIK night sights.

I asked them if they could make the trigger break a little more crisp. They said it would add about 1/2# to the SA pull but it would break clean.

We'll see when it gets here.

[mustang400]

Getting the pot boiling sometimes never hurts! Lets talk about it. What about converting trigger to SAO with Grayguns and just forgeting about all the drama about DA/SA trigger issues with our full size guns.

They say the they can confert our guns to a almost 1911 trigger. Wouldn't this eleminate half of all our posts on this web site?

[Kost]

A Colt 1911 single action type trigger really isnt possible in a DA/SA H&K USP. Any one who owns or has shot a true tuned Colt 1911 trigger can attest to that.

Im sure Springfield and Gray BOTH can do a very good trigger job on an H&K to improve the trigger and make the pistol more of a joy to shoot and improve accuracy over a factory H&K trigger setup.

Choose the smith who will give you what you want, and within your acceptable time frame, and go with him, both these smiths are world class and have a clientel to prove it.

[bspring]

I basically optimize a HK pistols to its full "stock" potential at a reasonable price and turn around time. Bruce Gray does great work as well for those who want to customize their pistols to the next step on up. I stone/polish the contact areas that would normally wear thru the factory finish during normal use. I can't figure why these areas would rust if proper maintenance and lubrication was performed, unless there were some other mitigating circumstances. These contact areas do need polishing, one would be surprised at the micro fractures underneath the bluing left from the die stamp process from a parts manufacture

I own 3 USP's, that work perfectly, work was done on these about a year ago. I have performed 200+ trigger jobs on USP's, HK45's, P-30's and P2000's and the like with no reports of any issues. If there were I would have certainly heard about them.

my $.02,
Bill

[Cole]

Bill,

What does your trigger job do to say a HK p2000SK DA/SA due to travel, reset, and pull weight?

[Scooter]

A Colt 1911 single action type trigger really isnt possible in a DA/SA H&K USP. Any one who owns or has shot a true tuned Colt 1911 trigger can attest to that.

Actually Bruce Gray's competition SAO trigger job comes about 95% to a 1911 trigger. The only thing is there is slightly more initial take up. With the wider trigger face on the USP trigger, it actually feels lighter than what is measured due to less pressure on your finger.

[mustang400]

At range today, shot my new P7 SAO back to back against my Expert 9mm. I'm sending the Expert to Greyguns next week to have it converted to SAO. For a 21 year old gun that SAO P7 shot pretty good against the Expert. If Bruce can get within 5% of what a 1911 SAO trigger can shoot, i'm in. I now rank my P7 and Kimber[5 in. barrel] equal, the Expert a long shot third!

[bspring]

For the P2000, pull weight in DA is about 9lbs, SA actual sear creep is reduced up to 85%+, SA pull weight is 3.5 to 4lbs. This holds true for USP, HK-45, P-30 and variants.

Bill

[Kost]

Actually Bruce Gray's competition SAO trigger job comes about 95% to a 1911 trigger. The only thing is there is slightly more initial take up. With the wider trigger face on the USP trigger, it actually feels lighter than what is measured due to less pressure on your finger.Thats impressive. Competition SAO trigger...is that a conversion done to a USP? Whats required and how much? Bill, do you ever do these conversions to SAO to a 4.5 pound carry trigger? Im interested! :)

[razerface]

For the P2000, pull weight in DA is about 9lbs, SA actual sear creep is reduced up to 85%+, SA pull weight is 3.5 to 4lbs. This holds true for USP, HK-45, P-30 and variants.

Bill

Bill, thanks for the info. If only stock parts gets to those numbers,,,what would the average pulls be with the lighter springs combined with your trigger work?

[bspring]

With a 10lbs hammer spring, knock another 1.5lbs or so off the DA pull and ..3 to .5 off the SA pull. I would relegate this configuration to range use, not carry.

Bill

[EmanP]

A freind of mine just had his P30's trigger worked out and a short reset added by Bruce and his people. He's going to get it in a few days, we'll see what he has to say about it. I know that the reset was long enough that he was held up in his splits and wasn't able to keep up with us when working on those excersises. He was constantly waiting on the reset and maxed out what he could do with the system. He finally handed it over to them with the confidence that they could work it out. 4 months later, they figured it out. They just posted something on the SigForum where they can do shortened resets now on LEM's and P30's. His is the P30 that they've completed. I don't think a link is allowed or else I would post it.

As far as the refinish on the parts, 3 years ago I had my Sig 226 worked over by him. When I got it back I noticed that there were parts where the finish was removed on contact surfaces. Although the trigger was remarkable, I was pissed. Living in the PacNW I need all the finish I can get cause things like to rust. I got on the phone and talked to him about it and he said that if I wanted, he would refinish them at any time. He made it clear that he would do whatever it was that would make me hapy. Whether I wanted it now or later, he would oblige since his worked was guaranteed for life.

But after talking to him I got the unshakable comfidence that I would be suprised in that it would not rust or exhibit any problems like I thougth it would. Just to see cause I'm curious about stuff like that and I figured I have nothing to lose since I could always send it back, I decided to keep it as is. 3 years later of carry and several dozen matches a year in all conditions including snow and rain, there is no hint of any rust or discoloration. The trigger is just as good now as it was then. In fact, I've worn out the gun to include the trigger bar and the barrel, and 29,001 rounds later as of last Sunday, those areas are still unfinished and still like when I first got it back. They got the gun around 5K or so. Now I don't actually want any finish on there. Anything that is going to take away from my smooth pull, I don't want on there although I know they've modded thier work to include refinishing because of guys like me and my strong opinions. Even if they were changed 3 years later. ;)

[kennywiz]

Bill did my P30L

1000% happy with his work. Quality work, fast replies and turn around.
GREAT Price.

[Kahrnage]

A freind of mine just had his P30's trigger worked out and a short reset added by Bruce and his people. He's going to get it in a few days, we'll see what he has to say about it. I know that the reset was long enough that he was held up in his splits and wasn't able to keep up with us when working on those excersises. He was constantly waiting on the reset and maxed out what he could do with the system. He finally handed it over to them with the confidence that they could work it out. 4 months later, they figured it out. They just posted something on the SigForum where they can do shortened resets now on LEM's and P30's. His is the P30 that they've completed. I don't think a link is allowed or else I would post it... ;)

See my comments here http://www.hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84162&page=4

[threefeathers]

I gave a pre-LFI session to a fellow today and let hm pull the trigger of my P2K LEM that Bill did, he just about had an orgasim. Gail Pepin, one of Mas Ayoob's instructors fell in love with the same pistol.
After shooting a 290/300 with it at LFI this handgun almost never leaves my side.
I'm about to send Bill another P2K, a Glock 19, and a HBAR issue trigger.

[EmanP]

I've shot a 299 with a stock 226 at double speed, collected my dollar and seen Canadian mounties shoot 12 pound DA pulls using Berrettas. It's not so much about the gun rather the user behind it. ;)

[jsdkms]

My advice is that before you spend big dollars, let Bill Springfield do your trigger work - You will not be dissapointed!

[tpafire5]

is there a way to add the sa/da with the decocker to an lem variant on p2000sk?

[usp9c]

tpafire5.
Not really. You could swap to Var3 but it's certainly not LEM.

[ToyCollector]

I sent a USP Expert .45 to Bruce for the full on trigger work. It is glass smooth, communication was excellent, at the time he was behind in work but always communicated. Did some sight work too for me. My only complaint is he fired the gun a bunch and shipped it not as clean as I like it. He fired his own work however! I give him an A+ for what he did, I would not hesitate to use him again, and this was about 2-3 years ago when he was already SIG focused. It is the most fantastic gun I own next to the Mk 23 for accuracy. It is the most accurate thing I own, given my skills.

I hate threads like this, as they influence a lot of decision making, but for those that are looking, go back a few years, and you will see a consistent pattern in acclaim for Bruce which is why I chose him. I live in GA, and have never met Bruce, and he couldn't pick me out in a line up either. It sounds like picking the most best to me, instead of a usual election in this country of least worst.

[dangerous1]

So trigger work is not recommended for carry pieces? Also, I shot my friend's USP45 with match trigger. How would my USP fullsize 9 compare with Mr. Springfield's trigger job?