Pros & Cons American vs. German made HK45s

[gtmtnbiker98]

Seeking opinions from the more experienced HK owners regarding their opinions of the HK 45s that are made here in the US and those that are made in Germany. I'm a bit concerned, since Sig also performs this practice and since moving their slide manufacturing and assembly to the US, QC has went down hill faster than the economy.

Thanks

[Carrots]

I think that it is a little to early to tell. By my understanding they are only just on the shelves let alone out and about with sufficient rounds down the pipe to be able to form a reasonable (and informed) opinion. That said I won't be buying one.....

[fno]

I am curious also. Has anyone other than a dealer seen one to compare?

[Carrots]

http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=101447&highlight=hk45+made

http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=100743&highlight=hk45+made

[NiceHK]

There shouldn't be a difference besides markings. I expect nothing less from HK.

[Sobriquet]

There shouldn't be a difference besides markings. I expect nothing less from HK.

I'd imagine someone said something very similar about Sig and the P220 a few years back. Hopefully there won't be a problem, but I'm glad mine's German.

[AWD]

Why exactly are they being made here instead?

[Sobriquet]

Why exactly are they being made here instead?

From what others here have said, .45acp is primarily an American cartridge. We're the ones buying HK45s, so I guess it makes sense to make them here.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Thanks for the replies.

[CPshooter]

Another reason they are probably being made here is because that way they can use more of their production capacity in Germany to make all the P30s and their other 9mm handguns that have a higher demand from police all over Europe. It just makes sense I guess... don't know for sure what the reasoning was.

As long as the quality doesn't go down I don't see why it matters. I don't think H&K would risk their reputation or their "no comprimise" slogan by making some of their guns here in the U.S. Some people are just obsessed with owning a piece of "German engineering," but in the end a good product is a good product. Who cares where it was made? If anything, we as Americans should be proud of any decent product that was made here on our own soil.

[HKslinger]

There shouldn't be a difference besides markings. I expect nothing less from HK.

I agree 100%

[DanielW]

They might have also moved production to the USA in anticipation of receiving any contracts that would have stipulations requiring the firearms to be made on American soil.

[GARY1911A1]

I was surprised when Sig's quality slipped so I hope I won't be surprised again. If it would lower cost I wouldn't mind HK making the P7s' here, but that is just a dream.

[AGG]

Other than quality (i.e., fit and finish--- probably not function)--- absolutely nothing!!! :D

Tony

[Shakey]

If HK does it like some other German companies have you'll be looking at German tooling and German management. Even without German management I think you'll find the American built HK to be just fine. A good reason to build here is that they won't be forced to use German Union labor and the Euro is higher than the dollar... for the time being. Part if Sigs problem IMHO is volume. The more you attempt to crank out the more apt your QC and product will suffer. HK isn't nearly the volume manufacturer as say Glock, or Sig. I think that will work in their favor as well. America does posses some excellent gun smiths, machinists and a skilled labor force despite what we're fed day in and day out in the press.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Thanks for the reply, I'm now a proud owner of an HK45 with an HKU serial prefix. One thing does puzzle me, though. With availability next to nothing and the US made units just now surfacing, I find it hard to believe that mine was manufactured in 9/08. By the way, fit and finish are outstanding and is every bit as nice as my P30. I'm really becoming addicted to these after being a long time Sigaholic. Hope to get out and shoot it tomorrow.

[RyuNoKai]

hopefully, they do a good job of making them. Until I hear otherwise, I'll assume that it is just another well-made american product, unlike our cars. . .

[Talon66]

I believe the reason is that their Germans are better than our Germans. In all seriousness, I will await the feedback from owners of both German made and American made H&Ks. Same reason I won't buy a snowmobile made in Mexico, a motorcycle made in Tiawan or a Croation made pistol. But that's just me....

[SloaneRanger]

They made the decision to move production here because there was a real chance that they would win the JCP program which was what the HK45 was designed for. They had come close before but had been passed over. HK makes the best combat .45ACP pistol out there currently in the HK45 and large branches within the US military, if not the US Mil itself, had/have been/are still flirting with the idea of going to a .45ACP sidearm ...They didn't want to miss the party because they can't fulfill the 'manufactured in the US' part of the US Mil's contract stips and the HK45 would be a strong contender to win any future JCP type program.

Of course the JCP program was axed and it now looks like the US Mil have reserved the option to extend production orders of the Beretta M9's by up to another 350,000 .... not good news for HK ...Some of the top brass in the US Mil must have some nice Villas in Tuscany or get some nice boxed sets of double rifles or 687 EEL Silver Pigeons or something...

I got one of the last few German made HK45s from CDNN last month..

[Jenkem]

Now that production is in the USA I hope that maybe we can get some Tritium sights for these things from H&K...

[Rican Havoc]

From what others here have said, .45acp is primarily an American cartridge. We're the ones buying HK45s, so I guess it makes sense to make them here.

I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with this. The .40 S&W is also of little interest to the rest of the world, but HK didn't push production to the US for any of the .40S&W firearms, even after attaining approval/contracts by the DHS. Somehow, 9mm service handguns are just fine for the rest of the world, but we need something more here in the US. Perhaps it's our mid-sectional girth here in the states that makes the other calibers less effective, but that's another topic entirely. :rolleyes:

From everything I've been told from HK reps & read in articles, the US made HK45s are part and parcel of the agreement between HK and Wilcox Industries for stateside production of HK firearms, which includes the MR series. It has become apparent that there is not a price difference between US and German made models, and I would speculate that profit margins are higher for HK on the domestically produced guns. I say this because of the weakness of the American dollar, as well as the importation fees & tariffs surrounding German made firearms. Now, we must acknowledge that the gear-up for Wilcox is undoubtedly costly, but in the long term, I believe the profit margins will be higher since the price point is remaining the same.

[Talon66]

I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with this. The .40 S&W is also of little interest to the rest of the world, but HK didn't push production to the US for any of the .40S&W firearms, even after attaining approval/contracts by the DHS. Somehow, 9mm service handguns are just fine for the rest of the world, but we need something more here in the US. Perhaps it's our mid-sectional girth here in the states that makes the other calibers less effective, but that's another topic entirely. :rolleyes:

From everything I've been told from HK reps & read in articles, the US made HK45s are part and parcel of the agreement between HK and Wilcox Industries for stateside production of HK firearms, which includes the MR series. It has become apparent that there is not a price difference between US and German made models, and I would speculate that profit margins are higher for HK on the domestically produced guns. I say this because of the weakness of the American dollar, as well as the importation fees & tariffs surrounding German made firearms. Now, we must acknowledge that the gear-up for Wilcox is undoubtedly costly, but in the long term, I believe the profit margins will be higher since the price point is remaining the same.

This is very helpful and enlightening information. Thanks for sharing it with us. :cool:

[NiceHK]

I'd imagine someone said something very similar about Sig and the P220 a few years back. Hopefully there won't be a problem, but I'm glad mine's German.

Yes but this is not the first time that HK has set up a satellite manufacturing facility. Pretty standard bus. practice for them. Should be bus. as usual.

[G3Kurz]

All good points RH but at the moment the most expensive parts to the US assembled HK45 pistols come from Germany and one of the least expensive parts (molded frame) is produced here. They will have to make many of the other parts here or outside Germany before the cost and price could be noticably reduced. And that can be tricky, to find and buy quality parts that met German specs and then assemble the whole pistol at Oberndorf quality levels. Can be done for sure but Murphy will be involved at every turn.

Contrary to other posts on this thread US assembly was not set up because HK expected to win JCP. Initially assembly here was set up to support the DHS contract for P2000's of which DHS has now purchased @ 60,000 units. JCP was a distant after thought at that time.

Word is there is a JCID's approved requirement for a new joint services semi-auto pistol that will hit the street in 1-1.5 years with the Army as lead. No caliber yet mentioned but rumor is it will be performance based (not caliber specific). They had better be at least considering calibers with some AP capability such at the FN 5.7/Five Seven, HK 4.6/P46 (if it can ever be completed) or the very interesting 9x21 Russian Gyrza to deal with the body armor issue that keeps coming up as body armor floods the world market from our red friends. While .45 ACP or .40 S&W would be great for unarmored targets that is no longer the world we operate in. We better be ready.

G3Kurz

[jeffrey]

I wish they would put tritium sights on the US HK45s.

[RyuNoKai]

doesn't sig do that?

[Rican Havoc]

All good points RH but at the moment the most expensive parts to the US assembled HK45 pistols come from Germany and one of the least expensive parts (molded frame) is produced here. They will have to make many of the other parts here or outside Germany before the cost and price could be noticably reduced. And that can be tricky, to find and buy quality parts that met German specs and then assemble the whole pistol at Oberndorf quality levels. Can be done for sure but Murphy will be involved at every turn.

Good point. I guess we'll have to wait and see if they eventually reduce the price as more manufacturing steps are done stateside. I'm willing to bet that we won't see any change in price whatsoever. The current price will likely be seen as "what the market will bear" and if HK/Wilcox sees US made HK45s selling well at $900, will they be so willing to lower the wholesale costs, and ultimately the street price? Of course, we're being hypothetical here. I just hope we don't see a parallel with SIGArms 2004 - present.

[GARY1911A1]

All good points RH but at the moment the most expensive parts to the US assembled HK45 pistols come from Germany and one of the least expensive parts (molded frame) is produced here. They will have to make many of the other parts here or outside Germany before the cost and price could be noticably reduced. And that can be tricky, to find and buy quality parts that met German specs and then assemble the whole pistol at Oberndorf quality levels. Can be done for sure but Murphy will be involved at every turn.

Contrary to other posts on this thread US assembly was not set up because HK expected to win JCP. Initially assembly here was set up to support the DHS contract for P2000's of which DHS has now purchased @ 60,000 units. JCP was a distant after thought at that time.

Word is there is a JCID's approved requirement for a new joint services semi-auto pistol that will hit the street in 1-1.5 years with the Army as lead. No caliber yet mentioned but rumor is it will be performance based (not caliber specific). They had better be at least considering calibers with some AP capability such at the FN 5.7/Five Seven, HK 4.6/P46 (if it can ever be completed) or the very interesting 9x21 Russian Gyrza to deal with the body armor issue that keeps coming up as body armor floods the world market from our red friends. While .45 ACP or .40 S&W would be great for unarmored targets that is no longer the world we operate in. We better be ready.

G3Kurz

Thanks for the post. Very informative and thoughtful.