MK23 vs. USP .45 Tactical

[n90guy]

I looked in the FAQ section but did not see the info I seeked. I am relatively new to HKs and wanted to know if:

The MK23 is still made?
Is the USP Tactical a mk 23 replacement?
What is the difference between the 2?

Thanks!!

[Hired Gun]

Greetings!
Just use the search function and type in: mk 23

You will get tons of info

Here is one thread...http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103056&highlight=mk+23

there are hundreds or perhaps thousands of threads with info

http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=96836&highlight=mk+23
I would buy a Tactical and then if I just had to have one...get the MK23 also.

Hired Gun

[snick97]

i would buy an MK23

and i say that having both, but to each his own! either way you can't lose! <3 welcome to the club

[benderx4]

I've owned, handled, and shot both. Here's the one I still have:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3535/3314109414_abdd2f6f54.jpg?v=0

[Kost]

...
What is the difference between the 2?Thanks!!Here is the main differences - quoted directly from the Heckler und Koch web site.

Enhanced versions of the USP, the USP Tactical models are designed for users who need the features found on the HK Mark 23, but in a more compact pistol. Both pistols approaches the precision found on the Mark 23 by adding an extended threaded barrel with a rubber O-ring, adjustable trigger, and adjustable target-type sights.


The .45 ACP model of the USP Tactical is constructed on the USP45 frame. The 9 mm and .40 S&W Tactical models are built on the USP 9mm/40 caliber frame. The 9 mm variant is also known as the USP9 SD.

I love my Tactical .45! =)

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/6383/tac1rt1.jpg

[apcorn]

Buy the Mark 23.

I bought the Tactical, thinking it was a suitable compromise. It's half the price and not only has all the same functionality, but is arguably better. The USP Tactical has a match trigger and adjustable sights - the Mark 23 has neither. The USP Tactical has a combined safety/decocker - the Mark 23 has separate levers for each function. The USP can be set to safe with the hammer down or cocked. The Mark 23 safety only works if the gun is cocked. The Tactical is also smaller and easier to carry concealed - the Mark 23 is really, really big.

Both guns can be fitted with a suppressor, and both can accept a laser/light. The USP series has tons of lasers and lights available - the Mark 23 has only two, and the cheapest is $1400 or so.

As I mentioned, I bought the USP Tactical, thinking it would be close enough to a Mark 23 to make me happy. It wasn't, and I now have one of each. I like the Mark 23 more. If you think there is a chance that you'll regret not buying the "real deal" just get the Mark 23 and save yourself the cost of a Tactical.

Or just buy both.

[orfeo]

Think of it this way:

The Mark 23 is a Humvee

The USP Tactical 45 is a Hummer

[apcorn]

Think of it this way:

The Mark 23 is a Humvee

The USP Tactical 45 is a Hummer

No, it's more like the Mark 23 is a Humvee, and the USP Tactical is a Jeep Wrangler.

[burp43]

No, it's more like the Mark 23 is a Humvee, and the USP Tactical is a Jeep Wrangler.

As long as it's a Rubicon, I'll take it over the Humvee! :)

[Lee123]

I'm pretty sure the Mark 23 is still being made since several stores Phoenix had them a couple months ago. If you buy one you won't be disappointed UNLESS you plan to mount a light on it. It was mentioned above, but can't be stressed stongly enough, there is no way to mount a normal light such as a TLR-1 on it. The only choice is a LAM with sells $1400 or more IF you can find one. A couple months ago I thought about buying one and couldn't find one. Just as well.

[benderx4]

No, it's more like the Mark 23 is a Humvee, and the USP Tactical is a Jeep Wrangler.

Sorry, but you can't get away with insulting my USP45T by comparing it with a Chrysler product. I'm thinking a better comparison would be the Mark 23 being a Mercedes G-class and the Tactical being a Porsche Cayenne S. Afterall, they are made in Germany.

[USMC91-99]

MK 23 are alive and well - they are still being produced by HK in Germany.

[faawrenchbndr]

Sorry, but you can't get away with insulting my USP45T by comparing it with a Chrysler product. I'm thinking a better comparison would be the Mark 23 being a Mercedes G-class and the Tactical being a Porsche Cayenne S. Afterall, they are made in Germany.


+1

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/faawrenchbndr/HKTacwithUTL.jpg

[G3Kurz]

I looked in the FAQ section but did not see the info I seeked. I am relatively new to HKs and wanted to know if:

The MK23 is still made?
Is the USP Tactical a mk 23 replacement?
What is the difference between the 2?

Thanks!!

Is the USP Tactical a mk 23 replacement?
No. USP45T began life as a smaller, less expensive alternative to the MK23 for a US Unit that at that time was looking for a suppressed and reliable .45 ACP pistol. First named in concept by the undersigned as the "USP45SD" it was developed from the full size HK45 with USP Match parts and threaded barrel added using a modified (modified recoil booster) for the KAC MK23 can. The gun had been selected as the new "service" pistol by the organization but only less then 2 weeks later to be rejected due to politics within the unit (M1911 politics).

What is the difference between the 2?
Size, cost, long term performance (durability), accuracy somewhat (from a rest), operating controls (too many on the MK23 - not modular) and accessory rail (solely unique) mostly. Had the then USSOCOM CG allowed a small schedule slippage to occur in the OHWS (MK23) program the eventual MK23 would have been closer to the USP45 in size (1-2" shorter), but that idea was rejected. For 95% of the average users the USP45T is a better choice, the HK45T an even better choice due to the improved ergonomics and MIL STD 1913 accessory mounting rail. Of course new offerings from other vendors, like the fine .45 ACP S&W M&P with manual safety, give it a very good run for its money due to improved trigger pull characteristics.

MK23 was developed to specs compiled by a joint user panel - ended up being very good at many things but simply too big and cumbersome for most user purposes. The MK23 was what SOCOM asked for. The USP45T was more what HK would have offered if the specs and program would have allowed it. Sadly it did not. A great gun (great BIG gun!) without a home.

G3Kurz

[snick97]

Is the USP Tactical a mk 23 replacement?
No. USP45T began life as a smaller, less expensive alternative to the MK23 for a US Unit that at that time was looking for a suppressed and reliable .45 ACP pistol. First named in concept by the undersigned as the "USP45SD" it was developed from the full size HK45 with USP Match parts and threaded barrel added using a modified (modified recoil booster) for the KAC MK23 can. The gun had been selected as the new "service" pistol by the organization but only less then 2 weeks later to be rejected due to politics within the unit (M1911 politics).

What is the difference between the 2?
Size, cost, long term performance (durability), accuracy somewhat (from a rest), operating controls (too many on the MK23 - not modular) and accessory rail (solely unique) mostly. Had the then USSOCOM CG allowed a small schedule slippage to occur in the OHWS (MK23) program the eventual MK23 would have been closer to the USP45 in size (1-2" shorter), but that idea was rejected. For 95% of the average users the USP45T is a better choice, the HK45T an even better choice due to the improved ergonomics and MIL STD 1913 accessory mounting rail. Of course new offerings from other vendors, like the fine .45 ACP S&W M&P with manual safety, give it a very good run for its money due to improved trigger pull characteristics.

MK23 was developed to specs compiled by a joint user panel - ended up being very good at many things but simply too big and cumbersome for most user purposes. The MK23 was what SOCOM asked for. The USP45T was more what HK would have offered if the specs and program would have allowed it. Sadly it did not. A great gun (great BIG gun!) without a home.

G3Kurz

which is still in production today, 18 years later ;)

with the law of supply and demand, I'd say I think it found a home ...

[G3Kurz]

True indeed - for collectors. I was referring to the original intended SOF users. Few used it though Crane did assemble 500 MK23's from the parts kits purchased with the weapons and issued them out for OIF/OEF for those who wanted a bit more than a 9mm M9.
G3Kurz

[Renegade]

I have/had both, and now I only have the Tactical.

http://www.texassmallarmsresearch.com/About/Toys/MK23USP.jpg

[Renegade]

Sorry, but you can't get away with insulting my USP45T by comparing it with a Chrysler product. I'm thinking a better comparison would be the Mark 23 being a Mercedes G-class and the Tactical being a Porsche Cayenne S. Afterall, they are made in Germany.

As G3Kurz implies, Mark 23 is what happens when you a let a committee design a gun, USPT is what happens when you let operators design a gun.

[I want a Mk23]

I posted this awhile ago...while I still had my Tactical...

http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86370

[n90guy]

Thanks for all the input!!!!!

[snick97]

Thanks for all the input!!!!!

so what did you decide? ;) there's huge threads of love/hate in the search forums on this topic.

i too was having this battle in the past. i now have and love both of them. i think if everyone was being honest, $ and practicality is the only reason not to have both. they both have a place in a shooter's armory.

[99999]

I have both and agree. I however would have to say that even the USP 45 Tactical is too big for me to use for anything but a home defense gun. So between the two, if i had to just choose one, it would be the Mark 23, as the size doesn't really matter anyway. But if I could just have one period, it may be the USP CT instead.

[n90guy]

I think I'm going with the USP for now as I would rather have more light options than a $1400 one at this point. I'm not opposed to owning both but will have to get one at a time.

[HKman1000]

I would say the biggest difference is in construction, while they are similar in appearance, function and over all design, everything on the Mark 23 is much more heavily built than on the USP45 line.

Here are a few photos I took showing the differences in size and construction between my MK23 and my USP45 Tactical, also notice the different 3 coat finish of the slide and the plated corrosion resistant pins and small parts of the MK23

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/Gixer1000/Handguns/Mark23vsUSP45Tactical01.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/Gixer1000/Handguns/Mark23vsUSP45Tactical02.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/Gixer1000/Handguns/Mark23vsUSP45Tactical03.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/Gixer1000/Handguns/Mark23vsUSP45Tactical04.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/Gixer1000/Handguns/Mark23vsUSP45Tactical05.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/Gixer1000/Handguns/Mark23vsUSP45Tactical06.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/Gixer1000/Handguns/Mark23vsUSP45Tactical07.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/Gixer1000/Handguns/Mark23vsUSP45Tactical08.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/Gixer1000/Handguns/Mark23vsUSP45Tactical09.jpg


Over All Length - Mark 23 = 1.01” longer
Mark 23 = 9.65”
45 Tactical = 8.64”

Over All Height = Same (in fact the Tactical is taller when using a mag with the extended floor plate)
Mark 23 = 5.90”
45 Tactical = 5.90”

Width Frame - Mark 23 = 0.03” wider
Mark 23 = 1.29”
45 Tactical = 1.26”

Width Slide – Mark 23 = 0.03” wider
Mark 23 = 1.16”
45 Tactical = 1.13”

Width Over All With Controls – Mark 23 = 0.02” wider
Mark 23 = 1.52”
45 Tactical = 1.50”

Barrel Length = Mark 23 = 0.78” longer
Mark 23 = 5.87”
45 Tactical = 5.09”

Weight = Mark 23 = 0.52 lb Heavier
Mark 23 = 2.42 lb
45 Tactical = 1.90 lb

[snick97]

awesome analysis, almost deserves its own thread.

I just got a Mark 23 and am looking for another in TAN. I love it.

I would say ... [SNIP] ...

[dlathem]

HKman you are the best! Thanks for all the great info on the Mk23. I have the Tactical, but someday I will have the big daddy!

...great photography by the way...not everyone can do that will with these shots...

[Red Cobra]

n90guy - Get the Mark 23. You won't regret it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/428SCJ/Picture007.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/428SCJ/MSARSTG-556003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/428SCJ/Picture002.jpg

[Lee123]

Red Cobra - What kind of light is that on your Mark 23? I like it better than others I've seen. Any idea if you can buy one new and if so where? Thanks.

[benderx4]

That's about some of the best HK porn I've ever seen! Sweet!

[dlathem]

Thursday morning Mk23 gun porn! It just keeps getting better.

I have the Tactical and I know where a NIB Mk23 sits for a good price. It is just a matter of money!

[Big Bore]

That is the Insight LAM unit. Link (http://www.insightlights.com/products-lam1000.htm)

[Red Cobra]

Red Cobra - What kind of light is that on your Mark 23? I like it better than others I've seen. Any idea if you can buy one new and if so where? Thanks.

Lee123 - It's the LAM (Laser Aiming Module) by Insight Tech Gear. They were contrated by SOCOM to produce the visible, IR, and white light aiming device for the Offensive Combat Handgun contract.

[396chevy]

I have/had both, and now I only have the Tactical.

http://www.texassmallarmsresearch.com/About/Toys/MK23USP.jpg

This may be a stupid question but how do you aim this with the can on?

[Carrots]

You use taller sights to be able to see over the can (not sure if the MK23 comes with those or not)

[Lee123]

Big Bore and Red Cobra - Thanks for the response regarding the Insight LAM!

It took some looking, but last night I came across a good deal on a slightly used one. It should be here in a few days. They seem impossible to find new.

[99999]

You use taller sights to be able to see over the can (not sure if the MK23 comes with those or not)

The Mark 23's sights although normal hight are sitting on elevated portions of the slide itself, this makes them tall enough to see over a can. HK would not have over looked that for a gun designed to be issued as a "weapon system" which included a suppressor. =)

I personally don't know what all the fuss is really about with the tall sights and can's. sure it is nice, but I wouldn't be target shooting with a can attached if I were using it in the military or some such thing. It isn't like the Can covers up the sights, you still see them like normal, and you just see a small bit of the Can in the way of your vision, but not enough to obsure the target by any means. If I were trying to shoot an Apple off a kids head (poor example, i know) I wouldn't want the Can there. but for combat accuracy, i don't think it makes any difference.

Plus, I would never have time to attach the suppressor in a defensive need that I would find my self were i lucky enough to have my tactical sitting next to me, and if I did, the courts and lawyers would have a hayday with it.

For those reasons, I would just assume have normal low rise sights. =) just my 2cents.

[G3Kurz]

You can't! That is way we spec'd out the USP45T with taller click adjustable sights that "looked" over the KAC can you have mounted in your photo. "Someone" swapped them out for the lower night sights and didn't tell you!
G3Kurz

[orfeo]

You can't! That is way we spec'd out the USP45T with taller click adjustable sights that "looked" over the KAC can you have mounted in your photo. "Someone" swapped them out for the lower night sights and didn't tell you!
G3Kurz

G3Kurz's answer is in response to 396chevy's question about the picture Renegade posted of his USP Tactical 45 with tactical light and suppressor on top of the map of Iraq. In the picture, notice that Renegade has Meprolight TruDot night-sights installed on his pistol instead of the taller, adjustables that originally came on it.

[Renegade]

G3Kurz's answer is in response to 396chevy's question about the picture Renegade posted of his USP Tactical 45 with tactical light and suppressor on top of the map of Iraq. In the picture, notice that Renegade has Meprolight TruDot night-sights installed on his pistol instead of the taller, adjustables that originally came on it.


Yes, I swapped out the factory sights for those Mepros. The sights just make it to the top of the can, so all is well. I also changed it to variant 5/6 if anyone noticed that as well.

[getback]

+1 tactical... part of the usp family, accurate, less expensive, more practical

[marshallwk]

Even if they were the same price the tactical is a better option. On the military side of things the Mk23 was way to big and cumbersome, the tactical was made for this reason.

[99999]

Even if they were the same price the tactical is a better option. On the military side of things the Mk23 was way to big and cumbersome, the tactical was made for this reason.

The Mark 23 had a purpose and it has a special history. If I could only have one handgun the rest of my life, it is the one that would last that long. if I knew an attack was pending and I could only have a handgun with me, it would be the Mark 23. Coppied below is a "history" of the gun as told by a Seal from another forum. Always liked this particular post. The USP Tactial is fantastic (I have 2 of them) but just isn't as unique as the Mark is. IMO


(Start of Frogman post)

You can’t really tell the Mk 23 story without telling parts of the Beretta and SIG story, as well. The Beretta 92F was largely the result of a specific SEAL Team urging Beretta to modify a few things with the standard 92 for the unit’s use. Things like moving the magazine release from the butt to the frame, re-shaping the trigger guard…etc. This particular SEAL Team had Beretta 92F’s before the U.S. military ever went to the “M9”. During the testing for the new U.S. standard issue sidearm SIG actually slightly outperformed the Beretta. I was told that it wasn’t chosen because Beretta slightly beat the price point over SIG. The real answer is probably a bit more complicated than that, but Beretta did eventually win . The trials lasted a long time during which life went on in the Teams…until Berettas starting failing in the SEAL Teams. I remember those days well. The Teams had a lot of loyalty to the pistol, but all of that ended when Beretta publicly accused the Teams of routinely firing “hot” ammo through the guns. Not a true statement. The Teams dropped the Beretta and were authorized to purchase an “interim” handgun to fill the bill until the ink was dry on the government standard sidearm contract. The Teams bought SIGs and began a loyalty o that system which persists even still.

It wasn’t too long before Army SOF began to sour on the Beretta. Their problem was that they already had M1911A1’s on their TOA&E. The military being what it is, you can only have one caliber of a particular type of like equipment. Army SOF began to work the issue by conceptualizing an “Offensive Handgun” different in definition and .45 ACP. This was just post Desert Storm. SEAL SIGs had been in inventory for 2-3 years and folks were starting to recall that the P226 was only an “interim” buy. Someone was caught using improper justification for a second purchase of SIGs by Congress. During the dust-up which followed Army SOF approached Navy SOF through Crane with the “Offensive Handgun” concept. The Navy could take the lead on the project and if it came off both the Army and Navy SOF would enjoy a new .45 cal handgun. The “Offensive Handgun” project felt the influences of many opinionated pistoleros. A long list of features was drawn up.

Eventually both Colt and HK submitted Phase One Prototypes for endurance testing. I was actually one of the SEALs who had to fire 30,000 rounds through a Colt and HK pistol over the course of a week in 1994 and document every failure. Not as fun as you might think.

We also took the revamped (Phase Two) prototypes to Rogers’ Shooting School for testing (that was fun) in early 1995. I and several other SEAL Team “bullet heads” went to the testing with malice in our hearts not only for the gun but the very concept of the gun. Our intent was to shoot it better than anyone else and then slam it in the critiques.

The gun grew on us haters. That simple. It was dead accurate, big- yes, but manageable. With a suppressor on it is unlike any other handgun.

It was finally issued around 1996 or so. I used it in winter warfare a lot, for over the beach work and diving. I preferred my SIG for assaults. Later in my career I did a lot more diving and over the beach work. The Mk 23 was awesome at that stuff. It is the best weapon to have in a hide site when lying up with a Team in a concealed position. You can bring it to bear day or night on anyone sneaking up on you. It is accurate even after blowing through your hide site material, the suppressor is pretty quiet and the LAM lets you get away with a lot. I used it and trained many other SEALs to use it very capably. The SEAL Teams that did not dive as much as, say, SDV Teams neglected their Mk 23’s. The Mk 23’s strengths were not as obvious to those guys who weren’t swimming and diving all the time. Last year a message came out to turn in all Mk 23’s to Crane. At least one SDV Team flatly refused. A few other Teams suddenly decided they should keep a “few”. So those at NAVSPECWARCOM who had sent the message in the first place restricted the expenditure of .45 ammo, instead. SDV Teams now have Mk 23s but no ammo allowance. They even ordered S&W 686’s from Crane to outfit their guys because a SIG will not survive a long dive very well. I know of a handful of guys who have taken their issue Mk 23’s overseas since the ammo cut-off because they know they can get the ammo there and have actually carried them in missions far from the water.

That’s the story in nutshell. What else would you like to know?

Frogman