SOCOM and a new pistol.

[Sidewinder6]

Reading an article in the recent magazine Special Operations Technology, I was floored to read an article titled By My Side regarding a new selection process taking place to replace the 9mm handgun in the military arsenal with a .45acp variant.

The article featured the manufacturers who were participating and their current offerings. Beretta (the incumbant), Sig, FN and HK.

The HK spokesman, Hilmar Rein went over the P30 and USP variants.Then the SOCOM Mk23 and USP Tactical and did not even mention the HK45!

This gun is supposedly an improvement on the USP models FOR SOCOM. I know this from learning the story behind the design by the consultants HK used and even their own web page.

So the question begs to be asked, Why wouldn't HK promote this pistol instead of discussing their P46 in 4.6x30mm? Something that does not have a customer and they are quoted as saying they probably wont produce it.

Sometimes things like this make you wonder.

[richark1]

Sounded like an interesting article, so I had to look for it. Here's the link

http://www.special-operations-technology.com/sotech-archives/146-sotech-2009-volume-7-issue-4/1281-by-my-side.html

[bshizzle]

Sounded like an interesting article, so I had to look for it. Here's the link

http://www.special-operations-technology.com/sotech-archives/146-sotech-2009-volume-7-issue-4/1281-by-my-side.html

Interesting

[G3Kurz]

Reading an article in the recent magazine Special Operations Technology, I was floored to read an article titled By My Side regarding a new selection process taking place to replace the 9mm handgun in the military arsenal with a .45acp variant.

The article featured the manufacturers who were participating and their current offerings. Beretta (the incumbant), Sig, FN and HK.

The HK spokesman, Hilmar Rein went over the P30 and USP variants.Then the SOCOM Mk23 and USP Tactical and did not even mention the HK45!

This gun is supposedly an improvement on the USP models FOR SOCOM. I know this from learning the story behind the design by the consultants HK used and even their own web page.

So the question begs to be asked, Why wouldn't HK promote this pistol instead of discussing their P46 in 4.6x30mm? Something that does not have a customer and they are quoted as saying they probably wont produce it.

Sometimes things like this make you wonder.

Sidewinder6:

First of all you have a spokesman who may not accurately understand the US DoD pistol market, the perceived importance of the .45 ACP round in the US or the history of the related OHWS/MK23 MOD 0/MK23 MOD 1/SCP/CP/MHS and final failed US Air Force effort to find and field a new US service handgun. He talked up those pistols he knew well - those that have fared well in German government testing and fielding - P30, USP, etc. The P46 will likely never happen - last reports were HK could not get the weight into the range the German MOD wanted and effectively the P46 development is/was on hold as a result. Shame - very capable piece! (Don't compare the 5.7mm FN FiveSeven pistol BTW, clever though it is, with the 4.6mm P46 - operationally they are VERY different due to the vast differences in the rounds they fire and how those rounds operate the pistols).

Depending on when this "interview" was actually conducted and how it was "edited" the spokesman may not have considered or wanted to reveal, or known about, a recent and yet to be announced success of the HK45 as a new military handgun - the end user country I cannot reveal at this time. As an HK45 fan you’ll be pleased when it goes public.

The Army formally announced recently, as alluded to in the article, that they are completing a JCID's approved CDD (requirements document) for a new Service Pistol to replace the 9mm M9. Likely it will be out in @ 1-1.5 years after the Next Carbine effort is well underway. It is capabilities based and does not specify caliber - just "superior to" 9x19mm Ball (what isn't!). If the CDD does not in the end limit submissions to current NATO or US DoD calibers one can only imagine how many different samples they will receive for consideration/test - could be hundreds (in .357 SIG, 9x21, .40 S&W, .45 GAP, .45 ACP, 4.6x30mm, etc.). My money is on .40 S&W as it is already DoD type-classified (for the Coast Guard and a select few special units, plus DHS, etc.) and offers the best compromise in stowed rounds, size/weight, recoil, cost and terminal ballistics over .45 ACP.

Fact is they need to look at pistols and pistol ammo that can defeat modern Level III body armor like the Russian GS-18 and Gyurza, and the HK P46 or FiveSeven, due to the ever increasing discovery of modern soft and hard body armor around the world in unfriendly hands. If not we will end up with a new handgun that performs no better against a protected target than does the M9, or any other 9mm for that matter - ZERO penetration of this body armor at 0 meters. The 9x21mm Russian exposed core penetrator round for the Gyurza pistol will do that at 100m's! "It's the bullet stupid", not just the launch platform.

The educated opinion of just one man. Consider it carefully.

G3Kurz

PS: And yes, the current HK45 started life as a purpose-built candidate to win the SOCOM Combat Pistol (SCP) program (and later Army Combat Pistol program when they went joint with SOCOM on the effort) almost 2 years before the rest of the industry even knew about it. When the earlier HK effort failed to get the USP45CT into a SOCOM command as "MK23 MOD 1" (a follow-on to the MK23 MOD 0 using basically the same specs) we convinced HK GmbH (WAS NOT easy mind you!) to create the HK45 and HK45C that addressed all the user issues with the USP45CT (poor grip ergonomics, no Picatinny rail, 8-rd only magazine, poor operating controls, etc.). Seems that may have recently paid off for HK.

[Sidewinder6]

G3K- Many thanks. Your response is well taken and helps me understand the process and the context of the article. I do know the development process internally was challenging and also feel the product is an outstanding result which, is why I was surprised in reading that piece.

I did see the EU influence in the perspective but was not certain (as an outsider) whether this was the new thought process at HK here.

All that said, good luck.

[ToddG]

The unit that basically spawned development of the HK45 ended up selecting a different brand in a different caliber. Ironically, though, the HK45 went on to be the undeclared front-runner for SOCOM/JCP. As G3Kurz points out, the rest of the industry found out when SOCOM announced it ... while HK had been working with key units for literally years.

Eight gun companies (and one accessory company) were invited to present to a committee in Dec'04. I went as part of the SIG contingent.

At that time, only one company had a gun that met or exceeded most of what SOCOM was looking for: HK with the still-prototypical HK45. SIG took a two-pronged approach, offering the P220 while at the same time trying desperately to change the committee's mind about caliber. This came to a head a couple years later during a hilarious if uncomfortable exchange between the President of SIG (Ron Cohen) and one of the lead engineers from Picatinny. Cohen, after arguing with the Picatinny crew about the caliber issue, opined that "if I shot one prairie dog with a .40 and one with a .45, you couldn't tell the difference." To which the Picatinny lead replied, "We'll keep that in mind if the U.S. is ever invaded by prairie dogs."

The M&P45, XD45, and other similar guns weren't even on drawing boards. Literally, some of the SOCOM folks told us off the record that the P220 was the next best choice after the HK45.

Then the SOCOM guys made a mistake. They tried to turn their medium-sized procurement into the biggest thing since M9, and in the process brought down the wrath of consultants and lawyers from all the other companies. SIG, Smith, and others spent thousands upon thousands of dollars trying to influence Congress to halt JCP long enough for everyone else to catch up to HK's lead. And it worked. In Dec'04 we were told SOCOM wanted to be fielding new pistols by Dec'05. Well ... it hasn't happened yet (at least not SOCOM-wide).

[ToddG]

For those who might be interested, here is the original draft spec released in Jan'05. At SIG, we joked at the time that the only thing missing was a requirement that the letters "HK" followed by the numbers "45" be engraved on the slide ...


3.0 REQUIREMENTS

NOTE: Thresholds and Objectives. Section 3, designates threshold requirements and objectives. All Threshold requirements are earmarked with a (T). All “shalls” designate a threshold requirement. All Objectives are earmarked with a (O). All “shoulds” designate an objective.

3.1 SOF Combat Pistol System Definition. The Combat Pistol system shall include a caliber .45 pistol, 2 standard magazines, 4 high-capacity magazines, holster, cleaning kit, operator manual, and illuminator module (T). Available system accessories shall also include a threaded barrel for suppressor attachment, (T), suppressor (T), and a Laser Aiming Module (LAM) (O). The Combat Pistol should have a force-on-force training module that uses a non-lethal marking ammunition round that does not significantly or permanently injure operators when fired during force-on-force training (O).

3.2 Performance Requirements:

3.2.1 Reliability. The Combat Pistol shall have a Mean Rounds Between Stoppage (MRBS) of 2000 rounds (T) and 5000 rounds (O) firing A475, A483, and AA18 ammunition (T). The Combat Pistol shall have a MRBS of 500 rounds (T) 1000 rounds (O) with suppressor attached, firing A475, A483, and AA18 ammunition (T). The Combat Pistol shall have a Mean Rounds Between Failure (MRBF) of 5000 rounds (T) and 10,000 rounds (O) firing 95% A475 and A483 ammunition and 5% AA18 ammunition (T). The Combat Pistol shall have a Mean Rounds Between Failure (MRBF) of 1000 rounds (T), 2,000 rounds (O), with suppressor attached, firing 95% A475 and A483 ammunition and 5% AA18 ammunition (T). The weapon shall maintain the reliability standard when operated in extreme environments such as Over the Beach (OTB), jungle, and desert (sand and dust) (T).

3.2.2 Accuracy: The Combat Pistol when firing a 5-round group of A475 .45 ACP Ball ammunition shall be accurate to 4.5-inch extreme spread at a range of 25 meters fired from a machine rest (T), less than 4.5-inch extreme spread at a range of 25 meters (O). Accuracy requirement shall be met unsuppressed and suppressed (T). Point of impact shift unsuppressed to suppressed shall be consistent and shall be 3 inches or less at 25m (T).

3.2.3 Service Life. The Combat Pistol shall have a service life of 20,000 rounds, (T) greater than 20,000 rounds (O) using A475 .45 ACP Ball and A483 .45 ACP match ammunition (T). The Combat Pistol should be capable of maintaining these service life goals when firing 5% AA18 .45 +P ammunition (O). The firing schedule will be as follows: The weapons will be fired 125 rounds of A475 or A483, then the suppressor will be installed and the weapon fired with 25 rounds of AA18, then fired 100 rounds of A475 or A483. The weapon will be cooled and suppressor removed. Then it will be fired another 250 rounds of A475 or A483. The weapon will be cooled and cleaned per manufacturer’s instructions. The rate of fire for this cycle will be 10-30 rounds per minute. The cycle will be continued until the usable service life of the pistol is determined, or the round count of 20,000 rounds is reached, whichever comes first. If the weapon reaches the 20,000 round thresholds, the weapon, at the Navy’s decision, may be tested further to attain its actual service life. During cycles, test data sheets will be used to record rounds, failures, parts replacement, stoppages, and cleaning schedule. The weapons will be visually inspected at every cleaning cycle. The receiver, barrel, slide, etc… will be Magnetic Particle Inspected using NDI methods every 5000 rounds to check for metal fatigue.




3.3 Physical description.

3.3.1 Weight. The Combat Pistol without magazine or attached accessories shall weigh less than 39ounces (T), 26 ounces (O).

3.3.2 Length: The Combat Pistol length with standard barrel shall be less than 8.75 inches (T) less than 7.5 inches (O) measured along the axis of the bore.

3.3.3 Width: The Combat Pistol width shall be less than 1.5 inches (T), 1.28 inches (O).

3.3.4 Height: The Combat Pistol height shall be less than 5.5 inches (T) 5.3 inches (O).

3.3.5 Magazine Capacity. The Combat Pistol shall have a standard magazine capacity of no less than 8 rounds (T), greater than 8 rounds (O) of .45 ACP ammunition. The Combat Pistol shall also have a high-capacity magazine of no less than 10 rounds that will not create a snag hazard when inserted in the magazine well (T).

3.3.6 Accessory Rail: The Combat Pistol shall have an integral MIL-STD-1913 rail(s) for the attachment of accessories. (T) The rail shall be located forward of the trigger guard on the lower portion of the frame. (T)

3.3.7 Surface Finish. The Combat Pistol surface finish shall be non-reflective, resistant to peeling, flaking, and chipping, and require a minimum of operator preventative maintenance (T). Internal coatings should be lubricious/low friction mitigating the use of lubricants (O). Non-metallic components shall be fungus and battlefield chemical resistant (T).

3.3.8 Color: The Combat Pistol and accessories shall be delivered in Color #30118 (Flat, Dark Earth), per FED-STD-595B (O).

3.4 Weapon controls.

3.4.1 Action: The Combat Pistol shall function in double-action only (DAO), double action/single action (DA/SA), or single-action only (SAO) (T). The Combat Pistol should have a modular action mechanism that allows reconfiguration at the unit level without modification to the weapon’s major assemblies (O).

3.4.2 Trigger Pull: The Combat Pistol shall have a consistent trigger pull with a minimum trigger pull of 5 - 8 pounds (T), 3.5 - 8 pounds (O). The trigger pull shall be consistent within 1 pound from the first round fired to each subsequent shot (T). The Combat Pistol trigger shall reset after being released, even if the pistol is not fired (T). The operator shall be capable of pulling the trigger, without moving the firing grip (T).

Note: Definition of firing grip: A grip in which the trigger finger does not touch the stock or the frame of the pistol and is capable of a straight pull to the rear without interference; the force of recoil of the pistol should be transmitted straight to the rear into the shooting arm.

3.4.3 Magazine Release / Tactical Reload: The Combat Pistol shall allow the magazine, empty or with any number of rounds loaded, to drop free of the magazine well when the magazine release is activated (T). The magazine shall fall free when the pistol grip is held at any angle from 0 degrees vertical to 45 degrees from vertical (T). The magazine shall also be capable of manual extraction within 2 seconds when held at any angle (T). The pistol shall be capable of firing with a chambered round and without a magazine in the magazine well to allow for target engagement during reload (T). The magazine catch shall positively capture and hold a fully loaded magazine with the slide forward and the pistol shall reliably fire a fully loaded magazine when inserted with the slide fully forward (tactical reload) (T). The operator shall be capable of operating the magazine release with the firing hand (T). The operator should be capable of operating the magazine release without shifting the firing grip (O).

3.4.4 Ergonomic Enhancements: The Combat Pistol should incorporate a modular grip adjustment system to provide enhanced ergonomics for a wide range of operators (O).

3.4.5 Sights: The Combat Pistol sights shall provide rapid target acquisition and shall be optimized for snag-resistant rapid deployment and use without sound suppressor attached (T). The Combat Pistol sights shall be replaceable at the organizational level and shall be available in heights that are optimized for use with sound suppressor attached (T). The Combat Pistol sights shall have illumination for low light situations (T).

3.4.6 Safety: The Combat Pistol shall have an internal safety mechanism that prevents the loaded cartridge from firing if the pistol is dropped or struck and mechanically prevents the firing pin from contacting the cartridge primer unless the trigger is pulled (T). The Combat Pistol should be capable of manual safety configuration change without modification to the pistol’s major assemblies. Configurations should include as a minimum a DAO configuration with manual safety and a DAO configuration with no manual safety (O). When configured with a manual safety, the operator shall be capable of activating and deactivating the manual safety with the firing hand (T), and should be capable of activating and deactivating the manual safety without shifting the firing grip (O). The weapon shall not create a hazard to the operator or others in close proximity during normal handling, transport, and use (T).

3.4.7 Slide Lock. The Combat Pistol shall incorporate a slide lock that will lock the slide to the rear after firing and ejection of the last round from the magazine (T). The operator shall be capable of operating the slide lock with the firing hand (T).

[ToddG]

(cont'd)

3.5 Design requirements.

3.5.1 Caliber and Chamber. The Combat Pistol shall be chambered to safely fire all .45 caliber ACP cartridges referenced in paragraph 2.2.1 of this performance specification (T). Each Combat Pistol shall be capable of withstanding the firing of a M1 Cartridge, .45 ACP High Pressure test detailed in MIL-C-60163, and marked accordingly (T). The pistol shall have proper headspace for .45 ACP cartridges. (Headspace will be checked per section 4.5.1 test methods.) (T)

3.5.2 Field stripping. The Combat Pistol shall be capable of quick and easy field stripping without the use of tools for normal care and cleaning in the field (T). The weapon shall be incapable of improper assembly at the fieldstrip level to the detriment of safety (T). Field-strippable takedown pins shall be captive (O). Field stripping of the Combat Pistol shall be compatible with combat clothing (including MOPP IV and cold weather gear, both day and night) (T).

3.5.3 Parts interchangeability. All component parts or inseparable subassemblies shall be 100% interchangeable between pistols without hand or machine fitting (T). Interchange of parts of like condition shall be seamless and not adversely affect functioning, reliability or accuracy of the pistol (T).

3.5.4 Corrosion control. Combat Pistol materials and coatings shall protect the Combat Pistol from degradation in all SOF climatic environments and weather conditions experienced in all climates and geographical areas including maritime, coastal, desert, tropical jungle, arctic, urban areas, and mountain environments (T). The materials and coatings shall minimize the attraction of dust and contamination (T). The Combat Pistol and its component parts and accessories shall be corrosion resistant (T) corrosion proof (O). The Combat Pistol shall exhibit no functional degradation after a salt fog exposure of 4-days (T), 10-days (O). The pistol configuration during this test will be: Pistol loaded, round in chamber, full magazine fully seated in magazine well, and an additional two magazines fully loaded.

3.5.5 Non-catastrophic failure. The Combat Pistol shall not fail in a catastrophic manner when subjected to extremes in operational and environmental employment, or due to over stressing system during high operational use and extended round counts (T). “Catastrophic manner” is defined as the Combat Pistol failing in such a manner as to become a hazard to the operator or friendly force in the immediate vicinity. Failure inducing conditions may include but are not limited to: bore obstruction (including water) and environmental extremes.

3.5.6 Lubrication. The Combat Pistol shall not create any new lubrication requirements over existing systems (T); the Combat Pistol should not require the application of grease or lubricants (O).

3.5.7 Rough handling. The Combat Pistol shall be capable of withstanding the impact, when dropped from a minimum height of 1.5 meters (5 feet), as described in TOP 3-2-045 and ITOP 4-2-602 without firing a primed empty cartridge (T) and without causing any structural or functional damage that prevents operation of the pistol or any controls (O). The Combat Pistol shall withstand vibration and rough-handling requirements as defined by MIL-STD-810F, Method 514.4 (T). The Combat Pistol shall be tested with and without a sound suppressor attached.

3.6 Operational environmental requirements.

3.6.1 Environmental requirements. The Combat Pistol shall operate effectively, without damage or degradation of performance, in all climates and geographical areas that include sand, swamp, tundra, grasslands, forest, jungle, urban areas, maritime, riverine, and alpine / mountainous environments (T). The Combat Pistol shall operate at high and low temperature extremes (-40 °F to 140 °F) as well as other hostile (ice/rain/sand/dust/dirt/mud/surf/salt fog) environmental conditions (T).

3.6.2 Saltwater immersion. The Combat Pistol shall be capable of being submerged in salt and fresh water to a depth of 66ft. for a minimum of 2 hours without operational degradation (T), 8 hours without operational degradation (O).

3.6.3 Operational suitability/effectiveness. Operator acceptance of the Combat Pistol system shall be based on the ability of the Combat Pistol system to meet all stated threshold and expressed objective requirements as well as Operators’ (subjective and objective) determination of operational suitability, effectiveness and ergonomic acceptability. Factors include but are not limited to live-fire hit scores, live-fire engagement times, speed/accuracy of engagement and function, controllability, handling qualities, ease of operation, weight, and snag free operation. The Combat Pistol shall be highly portable, durable, and easily maintainable in the field (T). It shall be usable by right or left-handed operators (T). The pistol shall be operable by personnel wearing anti-contact protection (cold weather, scuba, or Chemical, Biological, Radiological gloves) (T). The pistol shall not present any sharp edges or pinch points that could damage the clothing or protective equipment of the soldier or injure the soldier (T). The Combat Pistol design shall allow the Operator to immediately clear a malfunction without the use of special tools (T). Once cleared, the pistol shall resume operation without the use of special tools and without exposing the Operator to increased risk during a combat engagement (T).

3.7 Ancillary equipment.

3.7.1 Holster. The Combat Pistol shall have a holster system that allows rapid withdrawal and secure holstering of the pistol with the illuminator module attached (T). The Combat Pistol holster shall allow mounting on the thigh, hip, Load Bearing Vest (LBV), and body armor (T). The Combat Pistol should also have a modular holster system that allows the pistol to be holstered with all accessories attached (LAM and suppressor) and enables rapid withdrawal and holstering (O). The pistol system should also have a holster that is optimized for concealed carry (O).

3.7.2 Sound Suppressor. The Combat Pistol shall have a sound suppressor that is less than 7 inches in length and less than 1.4 inches in height and width (T). The Combat Pistol suppressor shall weigh less than .98 lbs (T). When firing A475 and A483 .45 Auto ammunition, decibel reduction with suppressor “dry” shall be 17dB (T), or more (O); decibel reduction with suppressor “wet” shall be 28dB (T), or more (O). The suppressor, when wet, should eliminate flash (unaided vision) for at least 10 rounds fired (O).

3.7.3 Visual Augmentation System (VAS). The Combat Pistol shall have an illuminator module that attaches to a MIL-STD-1913 rail (T) and incorporates an integrated visible laser designator (O). The illuminator module shall provide the capability for facial recognition at 25 meters with a minimum 60-lumen output (T). The Combat Pistol should include a Laser Aiming Module (LAM) that attaches to a MILSTD 1913 rail and incorporates a visible light illuminator, visible laser designator, IR laser designator, and an IR illuminator (O). All visible and IR laser designators should be capable of being seen against both light and dark backgrounds at a distance of 25 meters (O). All active aiming functions should be capable of single point adjustment for windage and single point adjustment for elevation (O). Visual augmentation systems shall be capable of activation with the firing hand (does not require two-hands on pistol to activate) (T). Visual augmentation systems’ performance shall not be degraded when used in conjunction with the sound suppressor (T). Visual augmentation systems that incorporate aiming designators such as visible or IR lasers should allow battery replacement without removing the module from the pistol (O).

3.7.4 Cleaning kit. The Combat Pistol shall be equipped with a compact cleaning kit for general field maintenance and cleaning (T).

3.8 Workmanship. Workmanship and finish shall be in accordance with the best commercial practice (T). Finished pistols and parts shall not exhibit poor material and processing such as seams, laps, laminations, cracks, visible steps, sharp edges, nicks, scratches, burrs, deformations and missing operations which may affect serviceability, functioning, operation, appearance or safety (T). Flashing or other extraneous metal shall be removed from cast or forged parts (T).

3.9 Identification markings. The Combat Pistol shall display identification markings addressing weapon nomenclature and caliber, manufacturer, and serial number (T). In addition to standard marking requirements detailed in 27CFR478.92 (T), the Combat Pistol shall be Uniquely Identified (UID) pursuant to the Defense Federal Acquisition Regulation Supplemental (DFARS) clause 252.211.7003 (T). Identification should be accessible without removing the weapon from its rack (O). The UID should be capable of limited data storage such as cumulative round count (O). Data storage should be through an easy process such as input from a Personal Data Assistant device (PDA) through a scanner (O). Identification markings shall be engraved, cast, or stamped (impressed) on the receiver in a manner easy to read and identify, not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed (T). In the case of polymer weapons, this data shall be placed on a permanent metal surface (e.g., onto a metal plate inserted in the receiver during the molding procedure (T).

[99999]

Wow, thank you both for all of your input and shared information.

[notoriousbfj]

Great information guys. Thanks.

Joe

[G3Kurz]

Todd G:
Both "sides of the coin" - great post Todd.
I remember seeing the text of those specs before! ;)

WARCOM was in fact the lead for start of the HK45 development, NOT another unit as some have said. They got in later. I know, I was there through it all. WARCOM pushed the stick at HK for a better, optimized USP45.

Let's hope one day the guys do in fact get something better. Been a long time coming.

G3Kurz

[Sidewinder6]

Todd- Thanks for adding your perspective to the background from Kurz. I have to imagine the process will be more contentious this go around and it will be interesting to sit back and watch the show. (TV stinks these days anyway, this is a good substitute)

SW

[dobe]

Yep, thanks to both of you for the education. I have and like my HK45.

[BigDonny521]

Thanks for the info ToddG & Kurz! As always your wealth of knowledge and willingness to share it is greatly appreciated. Whenever I read threads like this, I get a warm fuzzy feeling all over knowing that I carry the BEST combat pistol in the world (IMHO) everyday on the streets. It just chaps my @$$ that the front line ground-pounders cannot get this pistol due to endless maniacal squabbling and corporate B$ between manufacturers who “didn’t have enough preparation” to create a prototype…

Whatever happened to the “you snooze you lose” approach??? I would have LOVED to have had someone with the brass, and the balls, to say “You know, these guys are years ahead of you and already made what we want… So, we’re gonna go with them. Thanks.” Instead, we have to coddle and reward companies that stagnate by “sticking with what they got cause it saves on R&D and still brings in the $$$,” and lack the foresight to improve or compensate for changing needs and environments. We are so worried about lawyers and lawsuits that we can’t take a dump without getting signed written approval with triplicate copies of which TP to use… I say drop one of these pricks in bad-guy land with an Hk45 and whatever-else in front of him, and see which one he grabs to help him keep his head attached to his shoulders.

I HATED carrying worthless 9mm NATO ball downrange when I know HP ammo is so much more effective. I lost a friend in the box when he engaged a tango that charged him with a knife, and stabbed him in the side of the neck during a building sweep. Both he and the tango apparently shot out their primary weapons, at the same time his shadow’s M4 ran dry & he started to reload. We later found his M4 double fed after a round punched a hole in the bottom of his magazine & warped the spring. He transitioned to his 92F and started to zipper the BG…

The tango took 7 rounds point blank to the vital triangle, without dropping, and still had enough momentum to tackle him and get the knife in. Tango got issued a contact head shot with a 12ga while still on top of him & that seemed to work. It looked like a scene straight out of Resident Evil, trying to pump rounds into a Zombie with no effect… My friend died about a minute later due to high volume blood loss after we couldn’t stop the bleeding from his cut jugular. I would have given my left nut to carry an Operator’s sidearm like the Hk45 years ago when it first was developed, he gave his life…

[ToddG]

WARCOM was in fact the lead for start of the HK45 development, NOT another unit as some have said.

Didn't know that! Thanks.

BigDonny, one of the truisms of government procurement is that the procurement regulations are written first and foremost for the accountants, and second for the vendors. End-users come in somewhere near the bottom.

"Fair and open competition" is the driving force, and to be honest there are as many reasons to support that as there are to question it. I'm currently a consultant to ATF on its new pistol procurement and "fair & open" is the cornerstone of every single thing we do and write.

For a different perspective on the "late to the game" comment: how do you know the warfighter is getting the best equipment if only one company is allowed at the table during development? How do you know that the decision-makers are basing their choices on what's best for the warfighter rather than some personal benefit (e.g., the house cleaning at NSWC Crane a couple years back)?

Was HK way out ahead with the nascent HK45 in early '05? Absolutely.

Would other companies have been farther along the development of their new high-capacity polymer .45's if they'd been told what was going on? Absolutely.

Which isn't to bad-mouth HK or WARCOM. As I said earlier, the real problem started when a few guys decided this project should go from small (and easily controlled) to monumentally paradigm-shifting within the entire U.S. military ... At that point, quiet partnerships between special units and proven vendors have to give way to Federal Acquisition Rules and all the legal-cum-political anarchy that goes with it.