P7M7

[ToddG]

Apologies in advance for the quality. I didn't have the kind of gear with me that you'd use for this kind of photography.

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/HKGray-M7.jpg

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/HKGray-M7muzzle.jpg

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/HKGray-M7port.jpg

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/HKGray-M7butt.jpg

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/HKGray-M7mag.jpg

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/HKGray-M7grip.jpg

[sig-x]

Thats a nice piece I wish HK would of mass produced them. Where did you take those pics?

[ToddG]

I got to spend some time in the Gray Room (http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106412) this past Thursday.

[HKUSP84]

Very Nice pics, thanks for sharing!

[Colt45ws]

Whats a P7M7? I know what an M8, M13, and M10 is.... Is it a different caliber?

[beta]

Colt
Look over here http://www.hkpro.com/p7m7.htm

Beta

[Colt45ws]

Ooooooo. I didnt see that. Sorry. Thats neat. It seems to me the .45 might have been a better cartridge for that design than .40, being its a lower pressure cartridge.. And it looks better than the M10.

[MarcDW]

I don't understand why HK never produced this gun?
Where there function problems??
I mean a P7 in .45 ACP would sell no question here in the US!

[cueist]

I don't understand why HK never produced this gun?
Where there function problems??
I mean a P7 in .45 ACP would sell no question here in the US!


It did not use the same gas system. Instead it used a hydrolic system that never functioned reliably enough to go into production. That coupled with it's small magazine capacity (seven rounds), and to the fact that the US is the only country with a love affiar of the .45acp round led to HK management having serious doubts about it's ability to sell it.

[RMA]

I love that pistol. I fell in love with it a few years back when I first heard of it. I wish there was a way to obtain one (realizing it would probably cost $8-10k I imagine). Thanx for posting those up close pics. Where's the "Grey room' BTW?

[cueist]

I love that pistol. I fell in love with it a few years back when I first heard of it. I wish there was a way to obtain one (realizing it would probably cost $8-10k I imagine). Thanx for posting those up close pics. Where's the "Grey room' BTW?


The Grey Room resides in HK Inc's Govt & Military facility in Ashburn, VA.

Also HK owns all of the P7M7 prototypes. There is no chance in one of them getting out.

[P7M8]

I got to hold that M7 when in the Gray Room during an EP class back in 2001. I have a pic somewhere.

[Colt45ws]

Pssh. 7+1 is what your standard 1911 carries. It is not that small of a mag capacity.

[AviatorDave]

Wow, the recoil retarding system was hydraulic and not gas? Did not know that.

But Todd - any idea WTH happened to the top of the slide on that one? Something chewed that one up pretty good.

[G3Kurz]

Wow, the recoil retarding system was hydraulic and not gas? Did not know that.

But Todd - any idea WTH happened to the top of the slide on that one? Something chewed that one up pretty good.

Careful AD. A few years back some of the past so-called "management" there actually considered selling off part or all of the US Gray Room collection - mostly to their buddies. That surely would have included the lone P7M7 in the US. They're gone - the collection is still intact. My fear is when the old timers there move on who knows. Many do not see the value in the cost of maintaining such a reference collection and would be happy to see it converted to dollars and off the inventory. This same thing was once suggested with some or all of the incredible pattern room collection in Oberndorf. The subject comes up each time there is new ownership and/or with certain senior new managers who could care less about "old HK guns".

There were less than 6 prototype P7M7's produced. All in stainless steel. All that I handled had missing hydraulic buffers so I never did shoot one. HK Inc. had two samples at one time. The "normal" one in Todd’s photos above (with the botched slide - no one recalls how that occurred though it looks like the result of botched machining) and one with a longer slide for the show "Miami Vice." (longer to look meaner - really!) It was going to be the handgun for the lead actor but a dispute between the show's producer and the prop house rep killed that and Don Johnson carried the Bren Ten instead, at least initially.

The P7M7 died the death of other US-unique prototypes - too few forecasted for sale thus a high production and unit cost. HK estimated no more than 2000 units would be sold which would cost > $2000 each TO MAKE as I recall. In the 1980's that was A LOT of money for a handgun. Had the gun shown up on Miami Vice, that all could have been different as surely the sales numbers would have increased. (When the Beretta M9 was used in the first "Lethal Weapon" movie word was Beretta sold more commercially as a result then it did to Uncle Sam - the power of the media!)

Technical issues with the P7M7 buffer were also problematic much like the case with the .40 S&W P7M10. It is such a small, low-profile lightweight slide on a 9mm P7 that the recoil imparted by the heavy .45 ACP and .40 S&W rounds makes buffering that recoil difficult, especially after 1000 rounds or more, as the gun beats itself to death.

G3Kurz

[ToddG]

But Todd - any idea WTH happened to the top of the slide on that one? Something chewed that one up pretty good.

Negative. But that's why I took pictures of that area.

It may not be clear from the photo, but that's actually extra material, not a ding in the slide.

[chayse]

Todd,
The pictures look good. Thanks for sharing.

[AviatorDave]

Negative. But that's why I took pictures of that area.

It may not be clear from the photo, but that's actually extra material, not a ding in the slide.

It's extra material? It looks like a scalloped cut, but made on a very irregular tool path. When you said it's extra, I can see how it could also be like a vertical fin, but it doesn't look like that in the other pic from the side.

Anyways, thanks for the great pics Todd, and as always, thanks G3Kurz for your unique insider's perspective.

[ToddG]

(When the Beretta M9 was used in the first "Lethal Weapon" movie word was Beretta sold more commercially as a result then it did to Uncle Sam - the power of the media!)

While I worked at Beretta, the marketing department hired a company to survey first-time Beretta pistol buyers. One of the questions was basically, "Why did you choose this Beretta pistol?"

The #1 answer was because it is the standard sidearm of the United States military.

The #2 answer, very close behind, was "Lethal Weapon and/or Die Hard." I kid you not.

[AviatorDave]

While I worked at Beretta, the marketing department hired a company to survey first-time Beretta pistol buyers. One of the questions was basically, "Why did you choose this Beretta pistol?"

The #1 answer was because it is the standard sidearm of the United States military.

The #2 answer, very close behind, was "Lethal Weapon and/or Die Hard." I kid you not.

And sales of Walther PPKs used to spike dramatically after some of the James Bond movies were released, Omega watches as well. If UMPs were available, the last Bond dvd cover alone could have driven a bunch of UMP sales.

[MJCOL21]

Thanks for the great post G3K. Its funny to find out that if the P7M7 was used on Miami Vice we all would have one. I know it will never be produced but I would love to own one.

[Loptics]

If they could make the P7 work for a .45 I'd buy one. It'd just be too cool to pass up.

[SudS]

Careful AD. A few years back some of the past so-called "management" there actually considered selling off part or all of the US Gray Room collection - mostly to their buddies. That surely would have included the lone P7M7 in the US. They're gone - the collection is still intact. My fear is when the old timers there move on who knows. Many do not see the value in the cost of maintaining such a reference collection and would be happy to see it converted to dollars and off the inventory. This same thing was once suggested with some or all of the incredible pattern room collection in Oberndorf. The subject comes up each time there is new ownership and/or with certain senior new managers who could care less about "old HK guns".



I hate to see gun companies sell off their collections, but it does happen.

HOWEVER, doing so would put some of those weapons in the hands of private collectors (mostly Bo I presume :43:). Is that worse than never being able to ever see these guns except for pics on the web? I doubt I could ever afford a P7M7 if it were sold by HK, but, if HK never sells their holdings, then owning a P7M7 is not even a possibility. Considering HK hasn't offered me a private tour of their grey room (man, I even named my daughter after HK), then an eventual sell-off of the grey room would actually increase my chance of touching the P7M7 to something above 0%.

[Bo]

I hate to see gun companies sell off their collections, but it does happen.

HOWEVER, doing so would put some of those weapons in the hands of private collectors (mostly Bo I presume :43:). Is that worse than never being able to ever see these guns except for pics on the web? I doubt I could ever afford a P7M7 if it were sold by HK, but, if HK never sells their holdings, then owning a P7M7 is not even a possibility. Considering HK hasn't offered me a private tour of their grey room (man, I even named my daughter after HK), then an eventual sell-off of the grey room would actually increase my chance of touching the P7M7 to something above 0%.

I just got all tingly.

[smfoushee]

I'd love to own a P7M7. My brother does just fine with his 1991A and its 7+1 capacity, and besides, I'd rather have 7+1 in .45 than 8+1 in 9mm :D

Of course if it cost over $2000 forget it.

[lunde]

I had a chance to see the P7M7 in 2006, at the 2006 SHOT Show. HK had it on display, though behind glass. Here are the photos that I took:

http://lundestudio.com/photos/p7m7-1.jpg

http://lundestudio.com/photos/p7m7-2.jpg

http://lundestudio.com/photos/p7m7-3.jpg

http://lundestudio.com/photos/p7m7-4.jpg

http://lundestudio.com/photos/p7m7-5.jpg

It is the same one that Todd photographed, specifically that it is #002. It also has that nastiness on the top of the slide.

BTW, #006 is in a private collection. The father of someone I know owns it. So, someone at HK had a moment of weakness, and let it go.

[smfoushee]

BTW, #006 is in a private collection. The father of someone I know owns it. So, someone at HK had a moment of weakness, and let it go.

Does it function? And more importantly, has he ever taken it to the range?

[RMA]

I would gather the P7M7 would be the Holy Grail of all P7's ;)

[G3Kurz]

Would be interesting to see pictures of 006 - was it the "long slide" version made for Miami Vice? If it was "sold" it was sold without the knowledge of HK management and likely an individual pocketed the money. I would have to see the photos and HK invoice to believe it was sold legally. A collection such as that needs to be protected and not sold off piecemeal for the benefit of someone likely not with HK for many years.
G3Kurz

[RMA]

Is there any actual proof that the P7M7 was almost featured in a Miami Vice episode? I realize this topic has been brought up years ago but does anyone have any actual pics, footage, of which #'d epidode it was supposed to appear in???

[SudS]

A collection such as that needs to be protected and not sold off piecemeal for the benefit of someone likely not with HK for many years.
G3Kurz

I agree from a corporate perspective, these collections should remain with HK. However, rather than HK keeping them out of the public eye, I would prefer the collection go on loan to the NRA museum (a recreation of the "grey" room). Hk historically sold off lesser prototypes to its employees or others. Our gun shop transferred several prototypes for employees and a time later, a former manager offered to sell me a couple from his collection (like an SL7 with built-in bayonet lug). It really is just a matter of time before someone at HK looks at these guns as a funding source, not history.

(PS G3Kurz, if you have some time, I have a couple of background questions about the half moon rollers used on the 23E, perhaps open up a new thread on the NFA board?)

[G3Kurz]

I agree from a corporate perspective, these collections should remain with HK. However, rather than HK keeping them out of the public eye, I would prefer the collection go on loan to the NRA museum (a recreation of the "grey" room). Hk historically sold off lesser prototypes to its employees or others. Our gun shop transferred several prototypes for employees and a time later, a former manager offered to sell me a couple from his collection (like an SL7 with built-in bayonet lug). It really is just a matter of time before someone at HK looks at these guns as a funding source, not history.

(PS G3Kurz, if you have some time, I have a couple of background questions about the half moon rollers used on the 23E, perhaps open up a new thread on the NFA board?)

"Half moon" locking rollers are BAD! A failed Lindenhopf experiment (like the HK23 overall!). Because the don't rotate in the bolt head they tend to wear heavily on the two sides. Thus HK had to specially harden them at great cost - still didn't work well, especially in a high round count belt-fed machine gun. The purpose was to improve the consistancy of locking function of the weapon but they should have left well enough alone. Wasn't needed on the HK21E or any other HK (was tried on the 5.56mm G41).
G3Kurz

[SudS]

G3Kurz,

Well, that's not what I expected you to say, but that's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.

I always thought the purpose was to lock up tight, but the half moons seemed to wear very quickly, even with the titanium plating. And, as expensive and frequent as those parts are to replace, hardly seemed a practical approach to a battle weapon.

I also wondered why the 23E and not the 21E, yet the half moons are used in the semi auto PSG1 (perhaps the consistent lockup results in better accuracy?)?

If given the choice, would the older 23E boltheads with round rollers be a better choice for the 23E?

Do I also get the impression you are not too fond of the 23E? Is that from the functioning perspective, or is it fielding that weapon in the 223 caliber (vs. 308)?

[SudS]

Bump for G3Kurz (questions above).