Who would want a metal USP Frame?

[svddragunov]

I remember a few years ago having LarryCCF asking what kind of metal USP frames we'd like to see, and if there was interest. It looks like he ended up making metal Glock frames.

http://www.ccfraceframes.com/

Who would like to see a metal USP frame, and what would be some advantages to it? Would you go with aluminum or stainless? Rumor has it that there will be a Titanium frame also...what about one of those? Take a look and tell me what you think.

[svddragunov]

Original post.

http://hkpro.websolv.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=41058&page=&view=&sb=5&o= &fpart=2&vc=1

[HKArch]

I'd like a titanium USP frame. But what about the internal components? Would I have to take them out of the polymer frame and put them in the metal one?

And not to sound like a killjoy, but what about the serial number? That has to be on the frame of handguns, does it not?

I'd like to see this happen, but I want to know everything that's involved with it.

[Big Bore]

Guess I am an old fuddy-duddy but I like the USP frames the way they are. I thought the whole point of going to a polymer frame in the first place was to make the guns lighter and safer in the event of a KB. And we have seen over and over again that the polymer frame blows in such a way to prevent serious injury to the shooter. Why is there a move to go backwards? It is not like the polymer frames are not lasting long enough or any other short-coming so I really don't see the point.

[choochboost]

I'm happy with the polymer.

[Haizum]

It looks like some of the GLOCK frames have a 1911 grip angle. Am I just seeing things?

A GLOCK with a traditional grip angle seems attractive.

[F22_RaptoR]

I would love a titanium frame for my Mark23. it would have to be the same shape though.... i dont know how it would respond to the inserts, you can't exactly take them out of the frame and transfer them (dont know how they would respond to the different metals rubbing during cycles). Plus, again, you would need serial numbers etc...

[Scooter]

Big Bore, that's not entirely true. A plastic frame does not handle KB better than a steel frame. Some KB will blow up the barrel and the slide, plastic frame won't help it any. Ones where the cartridge detonates partly out of battery where the pressure is vented downward, on a plastic frame, typically the mag will get blown down and the frame will crack sending the rest of the energy into your hand. If you have a steel frame, the steel frame won't crack, the mag will get blown down. If you have openings on the frame and wood grips, the wood will splinter into your hand. If the openings weren't there, your hands won't feel a thing. Even with the openings, you aren't any worse than having a plastic gun.

There's only a few reasons to make a gun out of plastic in the end users' perspective, one is weight. Plastic is lighter than metal. The other is the frame will flex making the recoil impulse longer which will feel softer to the shooter.

There are plenty of reasons for a manufactures to make guns out of plastic and that's MONEY. Plastic guns are cheap to make. You do have a high initial start up fee. You need to have dies made to make the steel inserts that go in the frame. Once the die is made, you can crank them out in the millions. Also a mold for the frame is needed, which will cost over $100K for a good one. But after the mold is made, you can crank out frames like crazy. Let say you have 6 frames per mold, most injection molding cycles will run less than 1 minute. That's 6 frames per minute. Times 60 minutes/hr, 24hr/day, well you get the idea.

On the other hand, let's take a metal frame. No one makes one out of billet because doing it that way is very expensive and not cost effective, and also does not result in a better part. Frames are usually made from castings and sometimes from forgings. So now you need to have plugs made for making the casting molds or dies made for forging. So that just gets you the raw frame. Next you have to go through many machining processes. Essentially each side of the gun will require a separate step and will require a separate fixture to mount the frame to machine. This all takes time and time is money. Robots cut down on a lot of the time, but it still takes time. After all that is done, it will need to go through heat treatment which can take several hours up to a day or two. Then it goes through the finishing process which can take several hours. So even if you have everyone ready to go to make 1 frame as fast as possible, you are talking about a few days worth of work to get one frame, vs. a few minutes to make a plastic frame.

If you look at the sheet metal receivers in HK rifles like the MP5. From start to finish where it begins as a flat sheet and ends up an unfinished receiver takes an entire day and that's just for one. It's no wonder why HK won't make any more metal frame guns, unless you pay them to.

Don't even get me started on the plastic mags costing $40.

Titanium is actually a really poor material to use if you have moving parts. It has a tendency to gall.

The frames Larry is selling are new frames with it's own manufacture and serial number. They are not replacements for your own frame. It is treated like a new gun purchase.

[Talon66]

Color me polymer. I'm more than happy with the feel of the polyamide frames. And the whole weight issue is important to me. My USP is the best handgun I've ever owned and the best I've ever shot /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[svddragunov]

I have nothing against the polymer. In fact, I like it. But, I think a metal frame is nice too. It would be nice to have all of the same options as Glocks have...if not more.

[Talon66]

[ QUOTE ]
It would be nice to have all of the same options as Glocks have...if not more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? I'm not trying to be argumentative. Glocks are great handguns but why do we need to have the same options as them? IMO I think H&K's are a cut above. It seems every manufacturer is jumping on the bandwagon to produce a polymer framed gun. H&K came out with a polymer frame pistol before Glock or any other manufacturer did, if my memory serves me right.

[Scooter]

HK might have come out with the first one, but you don't see anyone here rushing to buy one. I bet HK doesn't even come close to the number of plastic guns built by Glock, which is at 2.5 million.

[Capp325]

Personally, I think that a cast alloy frame would be a step backwards. As far as I know, all reputable gun maker that offers alloy-framed guns (i.e. Sig and Beretta) use forged barstock. Cast aluminum alloy does not have the tensile strength of the polyamide used by HK.

[Talon66]

[ QUOTE ]
HK might have come out with the first one, but you don't see anyone here rushing to buy one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying that H&K made the best plastic pistol. I'm simply stating that they were innovative in pursuing that venture and because of their desire to do that, other manufacturers followed suit. Why are we concerned with how many pistols Glock produces anyway? And as far as "rushing out to buy one", although that specific model left little to be desired, there is a great desire to own USPs, P2000s, P3000s, and UMPs. Just my 2 cents.

To answer the original post: "No"

[Scooter]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as I know, all reputable gun maker that offers alloy-framed guns (i.e. Sig and Beretta) use forged barstock. Cast aluminum alloy does not have the tensile strength of the polyamide used by HK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forged and barstock are two different things. You will not find a high volume manufacturer machining frames from barstock unless the price of the gun is really high. Essentially you are throwing away 90% of the raw material costs. Plus making a frame from barstock is weaker than a forged frame. Most frames are forged or cast. Ruger is one of the best companies at doing castings which is why they supply a lot of manufactures with cast frames.

The tensile strength of the best plastic that is fiber filled is only coming close to the yield strength of cast aluminum used in making frames.

[Scooter]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm simply stating that they were innovative in pursuing that venture and because of their desire to do that, other manufacturers followed suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I decided to look up their patent on the VP70. Sure enough, their main reasoning in the patent for a plastic gun was as I stated above, MONEY. It is more economical to build a plastic gun than a steel gun.

[Capp325]

[ QUOTE ]
Forged and barstock are two different things. You will not find a high volume manufacturer machining frames from barstock unless the price of the gun is really high.

[/ QUOTE ]
According to Smith & Wesson, all of their handguns save for the new el cheapo .22 are milled from barstock (that was posted by a S&W manager on the S&W board). This is just one example.

[ QUOTE ]
Plus making a frame from barstock is weaker than a forged frame.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure why a frame made from barstock would be weaker than a frame made from some other forged shape. A barstock is simply a solid chunk of forged steel. The term forged is used to refer to both, parts that have been milled from a solid forged form like barstock or billet (i.e. slides, slide stops, hammers, etc.) and parts that have been actually hammer or machine-forged to shape (i.e. hammer forged barrels).

A properly forged piece of steel or alloy will always be stronger than a properly cast piece of the same grade steel or alloy. That's why you never see cast barrels.

[ QUOTE ]
The tensile strength of the best plastic that is fiber filled is only coming close to the yield strength of cast aluminum used in making frames.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, injection molded polyamide used by HK has a higher tensile strength than aluminum.

Link (http://remtek.com/arms/hk/civ/usp/usp.htm)

[xplate]

Would any body like one made out of cast iron? If we are going retro, let's go all the way back.

I'll stick with plastic. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Scooter]

Barstock is forged, but a forged frame is not made from barstock. Machining a frame from barstock has the grain oriented in one direction. Imagine carving a gun out of a 2x4. If you lay out a L shape, one side of the L will be really strong while the other weaker. A forged frame will take a piece of metal and force it into the general shape before it goes through the machining process.

Even the strongest plastic out there that is reinforced with 60% carbon fiber has a UTS around 37ksi, glass filled is around 30 ksi. 356 aluminum for casting used in firearms starts at 30 ksi. If you look at 6061-T6, the UTS is 45 ksi. Aircraft grade 2024-T6 is over 62 ksi.

[F22_RaptoR]

and aluminum has the added benifit of having a higher heat capacity. although it is a conductor meaning the frame will heat up faster, it will be able to take much more heat and wont warp or distort. remember that aluminum is the same volume in solid as it is in liquid form.

[Austinkroe]

I would definatly buy one in steel. I like my guns heavy and to me the USPf is poorly balanced.

[PILMAN]

I would prefer a steel frame, but any chance they are still making these frames?

[harbinger_j]

No thanks.

But it might be cool if you had a stainless slide to have a stainless frame too?

[NonConformist]

Guess I am an old fuddy-duddy but I like the USP frames the way they are. I thought the whole point of going to a polymer frame in the first place was to make the guns lighter and safer in the event of a KB. And we have seen over and over again that the polymer frame blows in such a way to prevent serious injury to the shooter. Why is there a move to go backwards? It is not like the polymer frames are not lasting long enough or any other short-coming so I really don't see the point.

+1 I dont see the point. Im perfectly content with 'em the way they are

[e-man930]

A stainless frame + stainless slide = bliss.
my 2 cents.
I would only buy one if it was almost exactly like the original.
Hmmm, I wonder how much it would be to have a machine shop prototype one?

[LCSO264]

It looks like some of the GLOCK frames have a 1911 grip angle. Am I just seeing things?

A GLOCK with a traditional grip angle seems attractive.

not your imagination, that is one of the things they FIXED when they made the metal frames for the Glocks.... the grip angle is really the only think I absolutely don't like about Glocks.....

[H&K-Guy]

Let's not forget H&K made a Scope Mount for the USP. The Scope Mount functioned perfectly, except for one flaw. The plastic frame of the USP did not allow for a consistent hold on the mount. This made it impossible to keep a scope zeroed.

An alloy/steel frame would allow us to build a USP with a match length barrel and a rock solid mounting surface. Such a tack driver would be my next purchase if available.

H&K-Guy

[svddragunov]

Wow, blast from the past!

[ParChaser]

Titanium would be my vote! Other wise I would stick with the polymer.

[Torquem]

I'd buy one just becuase lol

[Kost]

I would buy one in blue carbon steel - IF it was ever made

[Cobra64]

[ QUOTE ]
Forged and barstock are two different things. You will not find a high volume manufacturer machining frames from barstock unless the price of the gun is really high.

[/ QUOTE ]
According to Smith & Wesson, all of their handguns save for the new el cheapo .22 are milled from barstock (that was posted by a S&W manager on the S&W board). This is just one example.

[ QUOTE ]
Plus making a frame from barstock is weaker than a forged frame.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure why a frame made from barstock would be weaker than a frame made from some other forged shape. A barstock is simply a solid chunk of forged steel. The term forged is used to refer to both, parts that have been milled from a solid forged form like barstock or billet (i.e. slides, slide stops, hammers, etc.) and parts that have been actually hammer or machine-forged to shape (i.e. hammer forged barrels).

A properly forged piece of steel or alloy will always be stronger than a properly cast piece of the same grade steel or alloy. That's why you never see cast barrels.

[ QUOTE ]
The tensile strength of the best plastic that is fiber filled is only coming close to the yield strength of cast aluminum used in making frames.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, injection molded polyamide used by HK has a higher tensile strength than aluminum.

Link (http://remtek.com/arms/hk/civ/usp/usp.htm)

Capp you apparently know very little about steel making, castings, forgings, rolled bars, heat treating, stress relieving, tensil, yield, elongation, eleasticity, hardness, machining, production manufacturing, scrap factor, time & material...

I've been in the steel business since 1970 and was a QC guy for over 12 twelve years.

Suggest you do your homework and then advise gun manufacturers on how to design and manufacture their guns.

Just my $.02.

[Cobra64]

Barstock is forged, but a forged frame is not made from barstock. Machining a frame from barstock has the grain oriented in one direction. Imagine carving a gun out of a 2x4. If you lay out a L shape, one side of the L will be really strong while the other weaker. A forged frame will take a piece of metal and force it into the general shape before it goes through the machining process.

Even the strongest plastic out there that is reinforced with 60% carbon fiber has a UTS around 37ksi, glass filled is around 30 ksi. 356 aluminum for casting used in firearms starts at 30 ksi. If you look at 6061-T6, the UTS is 45 ksi. Aircraft grade 2024-T6 is over 62 ksi.Barstock is not necessarily forged. Cold drawn bars are drawn from hot rolled bars which are are acid pickled or shot blasted to remove the scale and then drawn into a finished bar through progressive dies. The physical characteristics are changed immensely. I buy about 16,000 tons of steel a year from hot rolled mills and cold rolled mills. We pre-procees and sell to equipment manufacturers. The steel business is very prolific in the markets it serves.

[EVILjbf]

it's funny you mention CCF, I just read an aritcle about them today. It showcased some of their frames for Glocks

[F22_RaptoR]

I'd still get a steel frame for the mark23.

I doubt they'll make them for the USP though. Just not enough interest, sadly :(

[Tecumseh]

Guess I am an old fuddy-duddy but I like the USP frames the way they are. I thought the whole point of going to a polymer frame in the first place was to make the guns lighter and safer in the event of a KB. And we have seen over and over again that the polymer frame blows in such a way to prevent serious injury to the shooter. Why is there a move to go backwards? It is not like the polymer frames are not lasting long enough or any other short-coming so I really don't see the point.
+1

If I wanted a metal frame I would get myself a Sig.:14000000:

[l.b.]

I would LOVE one for my USP .45........

l.b.

[BostonLager]

I love my USP Tactical's frame, I think the grip surface on the side is about the best ive every felt. Seems pretty strong. I love how it will never rust or the finish will never wear off.

I really belive that Heckler & Koch dosn't compromise, if metal was better they would use it. :49:

[G36gunner]

For durability, alloy frame ranks below polymer and steel, because aluminum doesn't flex well and every recoil impulse adds abit more stress to the alloy frame, until one day it fails completely. The engineers designs alloy guns with this consideration, so it takes considerable amount of firing to truly stress out alloy guns, but break they will

As for polymer frame, it ranks low when you are looking at natural deterioration due to sunlight and environment factors. Modern polymer has a lot of additives to reduce its vulnerability, but it still can't beat alloy or steel for ultimate long term durability. Polymer structures start to breakdown as soon as it's out of the laboratory, though it'd take a lifetime or more to become brittle. For most firearm, that's more than enough of a timeframe.

Carbon steel is the best gun material in terms of strength. The firearm is a combustion process tool. That's why you see all critical gun parts made with steel. Of course it also has greatest mass, and oxidate/rust when not properly cared for. Stainless steel resists corrosion better but you trade it off in terms of durability.

I think it really comes down to what you want with gun. If you want one that you shoot and enjoy, polymer has come on top in terms of overall performance. If you want a gun that you can keep for years and years and pass down the generations (assuming Jr or III doesn't pawn it), steel will deteriorate the least as long as properly cared for. Alloy is really in between, and is a "gap filler" between WWII's steel and Modern Polymer gun industry.

[HaloMann213]

I WOULD TOTALLY HAVE MY EYES JUMP OUT OF MY HEAD IF THEY MADE A TITANIUM FRAME!!

That is probably one of the best proposals I've read in this forum, and I would totally be down for one :D

[leibstandarte10]

I'm happy with the polymer.

Same here. It's extremely light and tough enough for me.

[F22_RaptoR]

Titanium is okay, but it pits fairly easily. So they would have to make steel re-guide parts in order for it to last.

Steel would be the best, but it would add a lot of weight.

[PILMAN]

I wouldn't mind extra weight if it helps it last forever :)

[Chris Sanchez]

I go for the steel frames for USP's if the only purpose is to make the pistol less top-heavy.

Some purist may shy away once they got hold of a USP because of its top-heaviness and unusual balance.

Also, if the new steel frames have better grip contour and adequate grip length, I'll go for it double-time!

[F22_RaptoR]

With a steel grip, you could reduce the grip circumfrence, but only so much, as its a double stack magazine, which is big to begin with.

[Would]

great idea!

[g95]

if HK designed and manufactured an all steel USP without a light rail i would definitely buy one but in my opinion you're asking for trouble for no good reason if it's from an after-market manufacturer.

[Addison]

I'd consider a P2000 in 357SiG with a stainless steel frame, but that's about it.

My USP .45 Tactical would prolly weigh 50 pounds with a steel frame... lol

[SEH95B]

Im not trading my polymer H and K for anything!!!

[captaincrm]

Im not trading my polymer H and K for anything!!!

I'm with you!:D

[Scooter]

Obviously you guys don't own P7's or P9's.

[qwqwqw]

I would love a metal or alloy frame. I love the feel and the balance of a metal frame.

[mmissile]

I'll stick with the plastic pistol.

[Cobra64]

Big Bore, that's not entirely true. A plastic frame does not handle KB better than a steel frame. Some KB will blow up the barrel and the slide, plastic frame won't help it any. Ones where the cartridge detonates partly out of battery where the pressure is vented downward, on a plastic frame, typically the mag will get blown down and the frame will crack sending the rest of the energy into your hand. If you have a steel frame, the steel frame won't crack, the mag will get blown down. If you have openings on the frame and wood grips, the wood will splinter into your hand. If the openings weren't there, your hands won't feel a thing. Even with the openings, you aren't any worse than having a plastic gun.

There's only a few reasons to make a gun out of plastic in the end users' perspective, one is weight. Plastic is lighter than metal. The other is the frame will flex making the recoil impulse longer which will feel softer to the shooter.

There are plenty of reasons for a manufactures to make guns out of plastic and that's MONEY. Plastic guns are cheap to make. You do have a high initial start up fee. You need to have dies made to make the steel inserts that go in the frame. Once the die is made, you can crank them out in the millions. Also a mold for the frame is needed, which will cost over $100K for a good one. But after the mold is made, you can crank out frames like crazy. Let say you have 6 frames per mold, most injection molding cycles will run less than 1 minute. That's 6 frames per minute. Times 60 minutes/hr, 24hr/day, well you get the idea.

On the other hand, let's take a metal frame. No one makes one out of billet because doing it that way is very expensive and not cost effective, and also does not result in a better part. Frames are usually made from castings and sometimes from forgings. So now you need to have plugs made for making the casting molds or dies made for forging. So that just gets you the raw frame. Next you have to go through many machining processes. Essentially each side of the gun will require a separate step and will require a separate fixture to mount the frame to machine. This all takes time and time is money. Robots cut down on a lot of the time, but it still takes time. After all that is done, it will need to go through heat treatment which can take several hours up to a day or two. Then it goes through the finishing process which can take several hours. So even if you have everyone ready to go to make 1 frame as fast as possible, you are talking about a few days worth of work to get one frame, vs. a few minutes to make a plastic frame.

If you look at the sheet metal receivers in HK rifles like the MP5. From start to finish where it begins as a flat sheet and ends up an unfinished receiver takes an entire day and that's just for one. It's no wonder why HK won't make any more metal frame guns, unless you pay them to.

Don't even get me started on the plastic mags costing $40.

Titanium is actually a really poor material to use if you have moving parts. It has a tendency to gall.

The frames Larry is selling are new frames with it's own manufacture and serial number. They are not replacements for your own frame. It is treated like a new gun purchase.

Frame of a Sig frame P225:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/SIGP250-1.jpg

[elcarne]

I would like a USP frame out of metal, but only if I can get a slide made out of plastic!

[dcondiff]

I would like a USP frame out of metal, but only if I can get a slide made out of plastic!

hahaha too funny

[sfguard]

I think that I like them just the way they are.

[AviatorDave]

A stainless frame + stainless slide = bliss.
my 2 cents.
I would only buy one if it was almost exactly like the original.
Hmmm, I wonder how much it would be to have a machine shop prototype one?

Ok, I know this is a kinda old post but -

A stainless frame + stainless slide = locked up slide.

You cannot run stainless against stainless - it galls up very quickly under high speed. You could make the parts out of stainless, but the actual contact surfaces between the two parts must be something other than stainless on stainless.

[finalcut]

A steel/alloy frome for an H&K seems like a solution to a non-existant problem.

I ccw daily IWB. DOn't want any extra weight.

[Big Bore]

SS frame and slide do not mean a locked up pistol. I have a totally stainless Para Ordnance P12 .45, North American Arms Guardian .32 NAA, and use to have a S&W 645 .45, al which have a stainless slide, barrel, and frame, not to mention over a dozen stainless steel revolvers and other pistols which are totally stainless. I've never had a galling problem with any of them. There are many grades of stainless. Use a good grade of stainless and there will be no problem.

And I'll still take a frame that splits, dumps the mag out the bottom and directs the forces down and away from the hand over a frame that does not split and blows the grip panels out the side through my hands. I've seen the pictures of what happens to the grip panels in an open sided steel frame 1911 KB and I sure as hell would not want my hand around them. YMMV.

[Kost]

Galling in stainless guns was cured in the 1970's by heat treating the slide and frame to 2 different Rockwell C Hardnesses. Galling only occurs when the mating parts are of the same Rockwell C Hardness - Galling in stainless guns has been an urban myth for a very long time!

[AviatorDave]

Galling in stainless guns was cured in the 1970's by heat treating the slide and frame to 2 different Rockwell C Hardnesses. Galling only occurs when the mating parts are of the same Rockwell C Hardness - Galling in stainless guns has been an urban myth for a very long time!

It also depends on the alloy. 304 stainless galls at just 2000 psi, 440C at 11,000 psi. But I wasn't repeating any urban myth I'd heard, just experience with machine building with lots of stainless parts - we have to use beryllium copper any time there's a metal to metal interface. Even with very little pressure, I've seen stainless-stainless parts seize.

But thanks, that's good to know that it's ok for all stainless firearms. Learn something new every day!

[larryccf]

with the hks in metal except to maybe offer a 1911 grip angle

the glocks have a lot of issues that are flex related, that the HK's do not (HK used a much higher grade of polymer, fiberglass reinforced).

on the issue of KBs and HKs - can report from a customer who sent in his MK23 that he had had a Kaboom in - nothing HK's fault - as he was finishing up at the range, he found a loose round on the ground, decided to drop it in and run it thru the pistol - big mistake as it must have been a reload that someone had overcharged.

next thing he knew, it sounded like a M16 had just fired with the muzzle next to his ear, pistol had jumped over his head, and he was seeing stars for a second or so

when he was able to refocus, the magazine was on the gound, follower, spring and floorplate were all scattered around, and he felt his hand hurting. A small triangular pc had broken out on the side by the decocker lever as well.

The Grip had split down the center from the beavertail to the bottom, and it was pinching the skin on the palm of his hand, but no major injury.

He sent the frame in to me, as it was one of the MK23s i had brought in, to see if i could get the frame replaced with one with the identical serial number.

Took some pix, emailed them to my contact at HK Oberndord on a sunday evening,
called him early monday morning to ask about the replacement, and first thing he said - we can replace, but there is no warranty, that was overpressure round (insert heavy german accent). I asked how he knew - his response: "That is how it is supposed to do, to send energy down thru magwell so it cannot harm user"

so obviously HK had over-engineered it anticipating some idiot moves

fortunately for us, glock didn't

[svddragunov]

Wow...my thread from 2 years ago STILL pops up!

Thanks Larry!

[kilo-11]

I would like to have the option.

The problems are easily fixed,

Serial Number: Just like buying another AR lower, it is like buying a whole new gun.

Internal Parts: This could be an option from the manufacturer. Pay extra for internal parts already installed, pay extra for all internal parts not installed, pay lowest price and take the parts from your frame.


I like the idea of having the option...

And HK is genius to anticipate its users being idiots and using over-loaded re-loads...and then to make it so that it will be safe when the pistol KBs...