HK Mark23 vs 45 Tactical - Head to Head Comparison

[G36gunner]

I've gone and done it! I've shot a friend's Mark23 before but now I finally got one of my own. I've read countless posts about Mark23 vs. Tactical threads here but there hasn't been any visual clues as to how they're different. I can tell you that Mark23 is not just a larger Tactical. The Tactical is an enhanced USP as it shares the same frame, slide and internals as standard USP, but the Mark23 is an entirely different beast. I didn't appreciate it before but now that I've joined the Mark23 owner's rank, I have to say it's the ultimate combat pistol.

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/9853/hkmark23tactical12gw.jpg
It is big, that's for sure! I don't have my Desert Eagle here right now to compare against so it's just Mark23 vs. Tactical. The size difference is immediate. Actually, for its size Mark23 is fairly light. It weights just about a steel 1911 and it's fairly balanced in terms of weight distribution and center of gravity. This is further enhanced by a fully loaded magazine.

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/5342/hkmark23tactical31cp.jpg
I never figured out why Tactical sights appeared taller than Mark23 sights, since both are designed for suppressor cans. Now you can see why. The Mark23 has a step up built into the slide's front/rear sight bases, therefore the actual sights don't have to be as tall. Also its' obvious that the Mark23 is more than length vs. Tactical. It's also beefier in terms of slide and frame. The front of frame has the open ended slotting for HK rail. In USP and Tactical they're closed.

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/6487/hkmark23tactical41sj.jpg
Another comparison of sizes. The trigger guard and grip are both thicker on the Mark23. That's the main reason that Mark23 feels less ergonomic vs. 45 Tactical. In an earlier post, the Mark23 grip was measured as 6" circumference, while the 45 Tactical has 5.75" circumference. I found that both are perfectly fine in single-action trigger reach, but DA trigger on Mark23 requires abit more extension of my trigger finger. Bottomline is that DA is not bad with a 2 handed grip, but shooting DA one handed wont be my first choice.

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/2586/hkmark23tactical54yc.jpg
This is a look at line of sight. Mark23 is geared toward combat type shooters, where as Tactical is specialized for bullseye shooting with its adjustable and notched rear sight. Also is another look at the width of the grip. The back serration is more extensive vs. Tactical. Both the slide and frame on Mark23 are also thicker.

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/6392/hkmark23tactical67qs.jpg
Visual comparison of slide and recoil springs. The key to Mark23's ability to take 30000rd of +P ammo is the combination of slide, frame and recoil spring. The slide appears to be much more massive vs. Tactical. That's why even though Mark23 is shorter than USP 45 Elite, it still outweights it. The same size increase can be said of the recoil spring. Not only is Mark23 recoil system longer, the springs are also wider. The Mark23's outer springs are nearly 30% thicker than USP, and the thicker inner buffer springs are about 50% thicker than USP. The wider spring coils also becomes the culprit in causing scratches barrel bottom's finish.

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/3676/hkmark23tactical76zz.jpg
Here's a look at the frame differences. Once again the Mark23 is built for ultra durability. There are more and larger steel inserts in the polymer frame to support the bigger slide. The Tactical has the standard USP type steel insert stubs which now appear really small. The Mark23 has bigger steel support areas in contact with slide, usually more than twice as large in terms of surface contact.

The final word is that Mark23 is one seriously designed combat handgun. I wouldn't doubt for a minute that it was the winner in SOCOM competition. The Tactical however is not slouch, and is the more ergonomic of the two. If the current US Army tests do not require SOCOM's 30000 +P rating, the Tactical should more than suffice as the new combat pistol. Is the Mark23 twice the gun that USP45 Tactial is? I dont' know, everyone's value system is different. I can say however that the Mark23 is the ultimate HK pistol!

[Haizum]

Nice work. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[HUKI365]

When you shoot them togehter, make sure you hit the range report section.

[Scooter]

How could it not win, Colt pulled out of the competition.

[Sinatra]

This needs to be stickied!

[F22_RaptoR]

YES! that was a very good comparison between the two! i've been looking for this for a long time, and you nailed it right on dude! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

(STICKIE to the max, this is very valuable insight, and there are a lot of people looking for this exact topic /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif)

[Chronos]

Nice work! I vote for a sticky too! Don't forget to compare how it does on paper!

[Syntax360]

Incredibly good review - nice work G36gunner! Another vote for sticky.

[Pyrobot]

That's a great comparison!

[pippin]

G36 - well done. Excellent side by side comparison. Had always heard that Mark 23 was bigger/beefier/heavier but in this case a couple of pictures really are worth a thousand words.

[2nd2none]

Now all we need is an accuracy comparison...

[ToyCollector]

Awesome pictorial. Thanks.

[specoperator]

Welcome to the "Crew Served Handgun" club!

[MP5_smg]

Very nice /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Big Bore]

Actually there is no need for an accuracy comparison unless you have a Ransom rest or some other similar device that will remove the human factor. Only then is any accuracy test between the Tac and the SOCOM going to be valid. I will flat-ass guarantee you that both will be more accurate than the shooter so shooting them, even from the bench, is only going to test the shooter's ability, not the pistol's inherent accuracy.

[G36gunner]

I haven't had a chance to shoot either for some time. Big Bore's right about the "human" limiting factor. I noticed that Tactical shot better than USP45, but I would attribute it to match trigger. The Mark23 have a match trigger feel too (not as light however) so I would expect Mark23 to shoot well too.

Here's another look at the frame differences. The thing that really caught my eyes was the massive recoil spring system. It really is pretty awe inspiring just seeing them. There are no other handgun that has such big and strong springs. Even the Desert Eagle uses a double coiled dual spring system, but their springs are much smaller. Next time I'll do a cmparison of Mark23 and DE. That'll make the video gamers drool. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/6514/hkmark23tactical85lh.jpg

[mefly2]

One word ... SUPERB !!

[F22_RaptoR]

one thing that always bothered me about the Tac, the ejector pin on the Mark23 is this big beefy solid looking chnunk of steel, the one on the tac however is a piece of thicker bent sheet metal /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I guess its not a big deal, or else they would beef it up, but its weird since i saw the mk23 field stripped first, before i ever saw a USP or Tac field stripped /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[MichaelVain]

That's a great comparison, very well done with excellent photos. There's alot of "meat" in these photos allowing us to see exact differences. When I clean my Mark23 and Tac, I never look at it that closely as I'm trying to hurry and clean. This let's me take a nice long look at them without having to take mine apart.

The quality of posts has always been good here, but this kind of effort and sharing brings it to a whole new level. Outstanding.

M

[JaxMustang50]

I thought the desert eagle uses a gas system to manage recoil? I'm not very familiar with it however.

Very nice little collection you have there. I have been wanting to get a tactical for some time now, and now I might hold out for a Mark 23.

[loupav]

Nice work. Looks like you had fun doing it all.

I love that piture of the two muzzles next to each other. very cool! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ronin_asano]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought the desert eagle uses a gas system to manage recoil? I'm not very familiar with it however.

Very nice little collection you have there. I have been wanting to get a tactical for some time now, and now I might hold out for a Mark 23.

[/ QUOTE ]

the de is a gas operated pistol. however, you still need a recoil spring to pull the slide back into battery.

[bunkerbuster]

Great comparison!

It would be a great sticky

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mark71]

Thanks for posting this great comparison it was long overdue. I can't wait to see the range report.
Another vote for making this a sticky

[SWATCOP]

I have medium sized hands (not small like carnies) so I fit to the Tactical like it was my ambilical cord. Don't get me wrong, I want to shoot (and own) a 23, but I feel so blessed as it is.

[Red Cobra]

Excellent comparison G36gunner!

[P7M8_P7M13]

Very nice. One thing I noticed though, missing a picture of two barrels side by side?

[G36gunner]

I just figure one of you guys would ask for this. I can't edit the original post but I put together a few more shots. Here's the barrel comparison. Essentially Mark23 just a longer barrel, except the Mark23 barrel is slightly thicker in the middle section. Mark23 also appears to be slightly taller from bottom lug to top of barrel hood. The other differences are well known, ie. Mark23 is chromelined from chamber to muzzle end, and the muzzle threads are in opposite directions.
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/920/hkmark23tactical70gy.jpg

[PackerFan]

G36gunner,

Incredible post! Thanks for putting the time and effort into it!

[Pilot]

Great report. I just ordered a Tac in .45, can't wait to get it. CCFA is out of thread protectors. Anywhere else to get them?

[lwk5150]

[ QUOTE ]
Great report. I just ordered a Tac in .45, can't wait to get it. CCFA is out of thread protectors. Anywhere else to get them?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've got one of Mark McWillis' (TROS) thread protectors - great product and a great guy to deal with.

[Pilot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Great report. I just ordered a Tac in .45, can't wait to get it. CCFA is out of thread protectors. Anywhere else to get them?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've got one of Mark McWillis' (TROS) thread protectors - great product and a great guy to deal with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you tell me how I get in touch with him? Thanks.

[lwk5150]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Great report. I just ordered a Tac in .45, can't wait to get it. CCFA is out of thread protectors. Anywhere else to get them?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've got one of Mark McWillis' (TROS) thread protectors - great product and a great guy to deal with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you tell me how I get in touch with him? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

His email: mmcwillis@comcast.net
His website: TROS USA (http://www.trosusa.com)

[JMolinar1]

Awsome post, thanks for you time to share with the rest of us.

[G36gunner]

Here's a final update to the Mark23 pictorial: a side by side of Desert Eagle 44magnum vs. Mark 23 45acp. Many have asked but I have not seen an actual photo, so here you go. The Mark 23 is actually nearly as big as a Desert Eagle. It's just as long if not for DE's rear tang. The Mark23 is not as thick, and definitely lighter than the all steel Desert Eagle. The DE grip does require a larger paw, partly due to the 44mag cartridge length. These two about unique in the handgun world, if you want "offensive" handguns, look no further. Also the impressive size and shape make them as excellent movie guns. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/8177/hkmark23vsdeserteagle12wc.jpg

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/9012/hkmark23vsdeserteagle221ag.jpg

[F22_RaptoR]

wow, its almost as big! i've handled both before, but it doesn't hit you untill you see them side-by-side /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

good shot man /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[trenace]

Actually, if comparing the weight of an alloy frame Desert Eagle in 357, 41, or 44 Magnum with the Mark 23, the difference is even less. Maybe eight ounces or so between them, as the alloy frame is 10 ounces lighter than the standard steel frame, though not quite so light as the Mark 23 frame.

Some significant quality/functional differences between the Mark 23 and the DE:

1) Reliability. I have experienced exactly one failure with the Mark 23 in 45 ACP, and that while using ammo not recommended for the gun, 185 grain standard pressure, AND using a steel flash suppressor whose weight on the barrel could have been the "last straw" so to speak. Even so, about 999 other rounds of the same ammo were fired successfully. No failures at all with 185 grain +P or 230 grain standard pressure.

My two DE's, however, are constant experiments, not as yet solved. Now, I found a 41 Magnum round that was flawless at least the 200 rounds that were fired, but it is very expensive stuff, over $1 per round (Buffalo Bore.) As of yet, several others have failed including Winchester Silvertip, and I've yet to find another that works, though there's some Lancer ammo that's just arrived that will be tested shortly. In 357 Magnum, while Winclean and Double Tap were reliable, I couldn't stand the flamethrowing, but have not yet found anything without the flamethrowing that works. Again, though, just got in some Lancer to try.

2) The safety. I can flick the Mark 23's safety off just as easy and fast as a 1911's. The Desert Eagle's safety is absurdly awkward and difficult to operate. I cannot do it one-handed and even two-handed is a deliberate and not that quick act. I am convinced the design intent is for the gun to be easy to make safe but to require considerable deliberation and effort to make ready to fire. You ain't gonna "flick off" this safety.

3) Maintenance intensiveness. The Mark 23 is no more maintenance intensive than a 1911. The Desert Eagle gets dirty very fast and MUST be cleaned very religiously. It's probably unrealistic to expect more than 200 rounds per operating session, and possibly less depending on the ammo, just as personal opinion.

4) Oddities. The Desert Eagle typically will fail if there's pressure on the magazine baseplate. The Mark 23 has no oddities.

5) Capacity. For the DE, nine rounds in 357 Magnum, eight rounds in 41 or 44 Magnum, don't know about 50 AE. Twelve rounds for the Mark 23. The Desert Eagle's magazines are more maintenance intensive, finicky and can be problematic; the Mark 23's magazines seem excellent.

6) Finally, one where the DE wins: the DE can achieve much higher velocities. While I haven't chronographed it, the Buffalo Bore is probably well over 1800 fps from the 6" Desert Eagle and even faster from the 10" barrel. At 100 or 200 yards I suppose the DE would clobber the Mark 23.

7) Grip. The Mark 23 stays in your hand. The DE wants to squirm out, unless you buy aftermarket Hogues with rubber frontstrap, or use a wrap such as Agrips. This probably is because the frontstrap is smooth metal. Ironically enough, it's about the only really smooth metal on the gun actually (if you have the standard finish.) No big deal as it's easily changed, but it can be a significant factor in operating the stock gun, whereas the Mark 23 is ready to go as is.

8) Durability. Not sure about the DE, aside from its needing spring replacements every 5000 rounds or so, but I don't believe it has overall the durability of the Mark 23 even aside from that. I could be wrong, maybe it's just a couple of parts that need more frequent replacement. But it's certainly not so well established.

Tossup category: trigger. My Mark 23's trigger beats one of my DE's, but -- despite the reputation of the DE for poor triggers -- the other one has the best trigger I've ever owned, beating out the Mark 23. However, that's "best" from a target or hunting perspective. For self-defense it would be considered too "hair-trigger," though it could be adjusted if I wanted to, whereas the Mark 23's trigger is an all-around one.

The DE is a great sport pistol but its upkeep and tuning is in the "art" and high-effort category and even then its reliability can't compare to the Mark 23 or at least usually does not. (I can't rule out that there may be an "artiste" out there who has managed to achieve it with some specific ammo and a very precise maintenance regime. To some degree I'm trying to do that myself, but do not expect to achieve it to the full extent.) It's a great sport pistol for those that understand it and are willing to accept its requirements but only a fanatic who wanted to put in way more effort than necessary, and accept more risk than necessary, would choose it for law enforcement or military use, and I don't think it would be wise as a primary self-defense choice.

Whereas, use recommended ammo types with the Mark 23, do any reasonably responsible job of maintenance, and one is all set.

[hkissippi]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a final update to the Mark23 pictorial: a side by side of Desert Eagle 44magnum vs. Mark 23 45acp. Many have asked but I have not seen an actual photo, so here you go. The Mark 23 is actually nearly as big as a Desert Eagle. It's just as long if not for DE's rear tang. The Mark23 is not as thick, and definitely lighter than the all steel Desert Eagle. The DE grip does require a larger paw, partly due to the 44mag cartridge length. These two about unique in the handgun world, if you want "offensive" handguns, look no further. Also the impressive size and shape make them as excellent movie guns. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. I've been looking for side by side pictures of these two guns for months now.

[PackerFan]

Very cool comparison!

[Cav]

G36gunner could you test the trigger of both. My Mark 23 and USP have about the same trigger pull, and its sloppy, has creep etc....IMHO not a match trigger by far. The Mark 23 does have a wide all metal trigger that feels a little better (not much), but the paly is the same on mine.

Now I dont have a Tacticle yet to compair all 3, but from what I recall my friends Tact was much smoother than both the 23 and USP in double action and single action.

My Mark 23 does not have a smooth break to it.

[F22_RaptoR]

The USP standard does NOT come with a match trigger. You can get a kit to install a match trigger (i wont call it a drop-in, as it wont work if thats all you do)

The USP Tac comes standard with a match trigger, and is similar to the mark23. The USP-standard trigger has no comparison versus the mark23, or USP Match-trigger kit.

[230GrainRemedy]

Great work and photos. I have heard the Mark 23 compared to the Desert Eagle, but as the saying goes... a picture(s) is worth 1000 words. I actually thought the Mk23 was a lot larger than the USP, but it does not appear as such in your pics. I am sure this thread will be referenced for some time to come, and it's about time. Thanks.

[F22_RaptoR]

It feels comparable to a desert eagle. slightly smaller, and MUCH lighter, but its overall length (besides the beaver tail on the DE) is similar. Grip circumfrence is a lot longer on the DE also. Its like holding a colt .44 anaconda versus the S&W 500.

[MISFIT]

i ve got both the tac and socom i got the tac first ant thought it was the bees's knees but then i got the gun of all guns and the tac hasent seen the light of day in some time. the olny reason i dont pack my socom every i go is beacuse it's way too big and i dont want everbody thinking i am happy to see them when i ccw so thats what the uspc 45 for. but hands down the socom is the nicest hand gun ive ever shot my step dad gave me a colt gold cup for a gift but i love the socom so much i just dont want to shoot any thing els. just my 2 cents

[Cav]

So my Mark 23 has a match trigger? Funny it does not feel like it. Is the there a reference page that lists the match trigger?

[ronin_asano]

G36gunner could you test the trigger of both. My Mark 23 and USP have about the same trigger pull, and its sloppy, has creep etc....IMHO not a match trigger by far. The Mark 23 does have a wide all metal trigger that feels a little better (not much), but the paly is the same on mine.

Now I dont have a Tacticle yet to compair all 3, but from what I recall my friends Tact was much smoother than both the 23 and USP in double action and single action.

My Mark 23 does not have a smooth break to it.

you might want to get your mark 23 looked at. i don't know if it has a 'match' trigger, but i can tell you my mark 23 has a much smoother and consistent pulll than my tac .45 does.

in da mode, the mark 23 has a higher pull weight (based on feel), but the trigger is much smoother, and has a crisper break.

in sa mode, the mark 23 feels about the same weight as the tac .45, but again, the break is more smooth.

[piebiter]

Awesome pics...thanks for a very enlightening post.

[Cooler]

Great info. Thanks. You should repackage it and submit it to various magizines as a freelance piece. It will get picked up by someone.

[Andrew_Dawson]

Nice job thanks for posting it never relized the diffrences.

[Jason R]

Thanks for the comparison!

[Cav]

you might want to get your mark 23 looked at. i don't know if it has a 'match' trigger, but i can tell you my mark 23 has a much smoother and consistent pulll than my tac .45 does.

in da mode, the mark 23 has a higher pull weight (based on feel), but the trigger is much smoother, and has a crisper break.

in sa mode, the mark 23 feels about the same weight as the tac .45, but again, the break is more smooth.

I might need to. I read all the H&K stuff and Mark 23 has no metion of a match trigger, only that the parts are fitted like a macth gun. My Mark 23 is assembled well and the fit is great, but when I slowly pull the trigger in DA its not as smooth as some custom type guns I have. Right before the hammer falls it has a hard spot, and my USP is about the same. In single action my Mark 23 trigger will pull back till it hits a tension spot, then from there there is some movement before it breaks, my USP is about the same (acutaly its better).

Now my 23 has only shot a few hundred rounds where the USP has a few thousand rounds. Granted the Mark 23 has larger parts and more metal.

Now if I just shoot combat style I dont notice this. But when my accuracy with the 23 was not as good as with some other guns I went to the bench. This is where I noticed it. When pulling slowly for well aimed shots. As the 23 is a large gun with a long sight distance I felt more care needed to be taken with my shots. I dont think the 23 can be adjusted like the Expert, Elite and Tacticle.

I guess I will go to my local gun store and check a few H&K's out VS the ones I own.

[Cav]

In one of my old H&K catalogs (2001-2003) it says its a match trigger in the 23, in the newer 2006 catalog it makes no mention. Wounder if they changed anything along the way. 2006 cat also says its a Martime finish not the HO.

[dcondiff]

Damn! This was nice.

[substratus]

I must congratulate you on your king-kong-sized hands... I'm jealous of anyone who can handle a Mark 23! :D

Great pistol... just couldn't get my hands around it... it's a true injustice...

[Cav]

I went and checked on a few H&K's from Elites, to Experts, to Tacticals, to USP's (could not find a Match or another Mark 23). The Elites, Experts, and Tacticals all had a defined match trigger.


I called H&K to ask about it and was told the Mark 23 does not have a true match trigger. They said it was built based off the Mk23 SOCOM specs and it was not a match trigger.

The Elite seems to be the best for accuracy.

I feel let down by the Mark 23.

If you own a Mark 23 you might want to compair it to a true match trigger.

[ronin_asano]

I might need to. I read all the H&K stuff and Mark 23 has no metion of a match trigger, only that the parts are fitted like a macth gun. My Mark 23 is assembled well and the fit is great, but when I slowly pull the trigger in DA its not as smooth as some custom type guns I have. Right before the hammer falls it has a hard spot, and my USP is about the same. In single action my Mark 23 trigger will pull back till it hits a tension spot, then from there there is some movement before it breaks, my USP is about the same (acutaly its better).

Now my 23 has only shot a few hundred rounds where the USP has a few thousand rounds. Granted the Mark 23 has larger parts and more metal.

Now if I just shoot combat style I dont notice this. But when my accuracy with the 23 was not as good as with some other guns I went to the bench. This is where I noticed it. When pulling slowly for well aimed shots. As the 23 is a large gun with a long sight distance I felt more care needed to be taken with my shots. I dont think the 23 can be adjusted like the Expert, Elite and Tacticle.

I guess I will go to my local gun store and check a few H&K's out VS the ones I own.

based on your comments above, i'm prompted to ask if you understand the purpose of the mark 23? i could be wrong, but i had always understood the mark 23 to be an elite combat pistol. ultra-reliable, super dependable, and more accurate than your standard production gun. however, i do not believe it was ever intended to have 'match' grade accuracy as a custom tricked out 1911 with a hair trigger that will fire from the pulse of your index finger might.

as far as shooting it, especially in double action, i don't think that pulling 'slowly' is the way to go even for well aimed shots. if i'm not mistaken, the mark 23 has an 11lb to maybe 14lb pull in da. if you pull that slowly, or i should say, if i pull that slowly, i find i have trouble firing shot and keeping it accurate. i do much better if i am smooth with the trigger, ie, once i get it moving, i keep it moving by applying continous and steady pressure all the way through the travel range.

i fire sa the same way, but of course there is less distance to cover.

i have probably 300-400 rounds through my mark 23, and i wouldn't change a thing about it.

[ronin_asano]

I went and checked on a few H&K's from Elites, to Experts, to Tacticals, to USP's (could not find a Match or another Mark 23). The Elites, Experts, and Tacticals all had a defined match trigger.


I called H&K to ask about it and was told the Mark 23 does not have a true match trigger. They said it was built based off the Mk23 SOCOM specs and it was not a match trigger.

The Elite seems to be the best for accuracy.

I feel let down by the Mark 23.

If you own a Mark 23 you might want to compair it to a true match trigger.

i addressed this in the other post, but how were you let down? if you were expecting the mark 23 to be a super accurate competition gun such as the expert or elite are designed to be, i can see how you'd be disappointed, but you can't fault the gun for that. it was never designed for that purpose.

[ronin_asano]

I must congratulate you on your king-kong-sized hands... I'm jealous of anyone who can handle a Mark 23! :D

Great pistol... just couldn't get my hands around it... it's a true injustice...

you have short fingers? i have small hands, but i don't have any problem handling the mark 23. it is however, about the limit of guns i can handle. were the weapon any larger, i don't think i would own it.

[HK1286]

I never knew that there was that big of a size difference in the two. Thanks

[Cav]

i addressed this in the other post, but how were you let down? if you were expecting the mark 23 to be a super accurate competition gun such as the expert or elite are designed to be, i can see how you'd be disappointed, but you can't fault the gun for that. it was never designed for that purpose.



Its advertised as a match grade firearm by H&K that is accurate at 25 meters if you read what H&K says about it. From a rest I bet its accurate but with a regular trigger, being used by a person, and its large size, it takes away from the over all shootability.

If they said it was built like a tank that would be fine, but for what was paid and what was advertised by H&K I feel let down.

[Cav]

based on your comments above, i'm prompted to ask if you understand the purpose of the mark 23? i could be wrong, but i had always understood the mark 23 to be an elite combat pistol. ultra-reliable, super dependable, and more accurate than your standard production gun. however, i do not believe it was ever intended to have 'match' grade accuracy as a custom tricked out 1911 with a hair trigger that will fire from the pulse of your index finger might.

as far as shooting it, especially in double action, i don't think that pulling 'slowly' is the way to go even for well aimed shots. if i'm not mistaken, the mark 23 has an 11lb to maybe 14lb pull in da. if you pull that slowly, or i should say, if i pull that slowly, i find i have trouble firing shot and keeping it accurate. i do much better if i am smooth with the trigger, ie, once i get it moving, i keep it moving by applying continous and steady pressure all the way through the travel range.

i fire sa the same way, but of course there is less distance to cover.

i have probably 300-400 rounds through my mark 23, and i wouldn't change a thing about it.



You need to read up on how H&K markets the Mark 23. It could be a super accurate gun, but with a poor trigger it wont show, even with a great shooter. I guess It could be a great ransom rest gun...............

Normaly I dont fire slow but when a gun does not seem to do what I thought it would I have to look at me, the gun, and the ammo. I found the problem was the gun (I thought I said how I came to the slow fire from the bench). I can live with it, but its far from "gives shooter match grade accuracy equal to that of the finest custom made handguns" as H&K puts it. IMHO Sig and S&W make better match grade accuracy guns.

[Jason R]

IMHO Sig and S&W make better match grade accuracy guns.

IMHO your honest opinion sucks!

[gunut45]

IMHO your honest opinion sucks!

+100

[Cav]

IMHO your honest opinion sucks!



Sorry if you have never shot a Sig X-Five or S&W 952. I have no brand loyalty I like guns. H&K on the Mark 23 fell short of what they pushed the gun as and put into writing. If they said the mark 23 was built like a tank that would be fie but H&K pushed price and match grade, they fell short on both.

Might want to see how many guns your missing out on if you never shoot others.

[Cav]

IMHO your honest opinion sucks!


How is your Mark 23?

[ronin_asano]

You need to read up on how H&K markets the Mark 23. It could be a super accurate gun, but with a poor trigger it wont show, even with a great shooter. I guess It could be a great ransom rest gun...............

Normaly I dont fire slow but when a gun does not seem to do what I thought it would I have to look at me, the gun, and the ammo. I found the problem was the gun (I thought I said how I came to the slow fire from the bench). I can live with it, but its far from "gives shooter match grade accuracy equal to that of the finest custom made handguns" as H&K puts it. IMHO Sig and S&W make better match grade accuracy guns.

believe me, i read the marketing and every review i could get my hands on before purchasing my mark 23. maybe you fell victim to the hype. how can you expect a reliable combat handgun to have true match grade accuracy?

[ronin_asano]

Its advertised as a match grade firearm by H&K that is accurate at 25 meters if you read what H&K says about it. From a rest I bet its accurate but with a regular trigger, being used by a person, and its large size, it takes away from the over all shootability.

If they said it was built like a tank that would be fine, but for what was paid and what was advertised by H&K I feel let down.

sell it and buy a custom 1911, then. i'm sure there are several members here who would take it off your hands gladly.

[Cav]

sell it and buy a custom 1911, then. i'm sure there are several members here who would take it off your hands gladly.


Already have a bunch of 1911's. The Mark 23 was a gift for my service in Iraq so it has meaning. Its not a bad weapon, but it has short falls that I am slowly finding.

[Cav]

believe me, i read the marketing and every review i could get my hands on before purchasing my mark 23. maybe you fell victim to the hype. how can you expect a reliable combat handgun to have true match grade accuracy?

With a clean match grade trigger ;)

Honestly the gun is large, has a long sight, and shoots well, but if shooting from the standing unsupported the trigger is its weak part (besides holding the gun steady). H&K said its a match grade trigger, but the Tact and Elite has a much better feel, do they not work well?

[diesel1959]

Anyone with a lick of sense about guns in general and HK specifically KNOWS that the SOCOM and MK23 are NOT a match grade weapon but are an offensive combat weapon with a really long sight radius and the option to attach toys useful in COMBAT. Much love.

[P7M8_P7M13]

people here own HK's don't bother compare them to Sig's or S&W and they don't seem to miss out on anything. Well, I can't speak for others. So it's just me.
The Sig and S&W may indeed as you said shoot more accurately than Mark 23. So, do any of us miss anything? Like we even care to know which Sig or S&W. Should our Olympic shooting team switch to those from whatever they are using? Or may be they are using Sig's and S&W's already, what do I know? I have always been confused/amazed why guns like Jennings, Hi-Point, Bersa are made and people buy them.
Compare cherry with apple for size, apple always wins.
I am also a bit confused that one of the let-down's was the price and you got yours as a gift, so you feel sorry for those who paid for theirs at retail prices? How much you think it should cost to be fair?

[substratus]

you have short fingers? i have small hands, but i don't have any problem handling the mark 23. it is however, about the limit of guns i can handle. were the weapon any larger, i don't think i would own it.
Well... I wouldn't say I absolutely can't handle a Mark 23, but it's definitely not well-matched to the size of my hands. I have pretty average sized fingers, which are also kind of thin. The Mark 23 feels like a behemoth in my hands; that said, this thread is making me want to own one again. :eek:

[dcondiff]

So you're saying you cant fire youre mark23 accurately at 25m? I wouldn't blame the gun... no hate.

[dcondiff]

Its advertised as a match grade firearm by H&K that is accurate at 25 meters if you read what H&K says about it. From a rest I bet its accurate but with a regular trigger, being used by a person, and its large size, it takes away from the over all shootability.

If they said it was built like a tank that would be fine, but for what was paid and what was advertised by H&K I feel let down.

So you're saying you cant fire youre mark23 accurately at 25m? I wouldn't blame the gun... no hate.

[ronin_asano]

With a clean match grade trigger ;)

Honestly the gun is large, has a long sight, and shoots well, but if shooting from the standing unsupported the trigger is its weak part (besides holding the gun steady). H&K said its a match grade trigger, but the Tact and Elite has a much better feel, do they not work well?

you said you have trouble holding the weapon steady, well, sorry, but that makes me start looking at the shooter, not the weapon. i have no problems holding the gun steady and making accurate shots. i don't know what i can do with it at 25 meters because the indoor range where i shoot only goes to 20 yards. however, at anything up to and including that distance, i have no trouble with this gun, even with my smaller hands.

i shoot the mark 23 much better than i shoot my tac .45, i can't comment on the expert or elite, since i do not own them, nor have i fired them.

btw, i just downloaded the operator's manual for the mark 23. at no point in the manual is there a claim that the mark 23 is equppied with a match grade trigger. the statement reads:


The HK Mark 23 .45 ACP pistol give shooters match
grade accuracy equal to that of the finest custom made
handguns — yet it exceeds the most stringent operational
requirements ever demanded of a combat handgun.


and later on

During testing, MK 23 pistols met the most stringent
operational and accuracy requirements ever demanded of
a combat handgun. MK 23 pistols achieved match grade
accuracy of less than a 2.5 inch maximum extreme
spread in 5-round shot groups at 25 meters with service
ammunition. Endurance testing demonstrated a service
life of over 30,000 rounds of +P ammunition with no parts
breakage, with an additional 30,000 rounds certified on
the slide and frame.

i must admit, that not being a competition shooter, i don't have much of an idea of what match grade accuracy is, but less than 2.5inches at 25 meters for five rounds sounds damn good to me.

but if that wasn't enough to impress you, the mark 23 also did this:


During over 450 accuracy test firings from a precision
firing fixture, MK 23 pistols far exceeded the government
requirement, averaging 1.44 inches, with 65 groups of
less than one inch. There were four groups of .5 inches,
with 5 rounds going through the same hole! This included
firing with and without the sound/flash suppressor
attached.

once again, there is no mention of a match grade trigger group in this weapon. i'm not sure where you got that and with groups like mentioned above, i'm not sure why you'd need it.

[Cav]

people here own HK's don't bother compare them to Sig's or S&W and they don't seem to miss out on anything. Well, I can't speak for others. So it's just me.
The Sig and S&W may indeed as you said shoot more accurately than Mark 23. So, do any of us miss anything? Like we even care to know which Sig or S&W. Should our Olympic shooting team switch to those from whatever they are using? Or may be they are using Sig's and S&W's already, what do I know? I have always been confused/amazed why guns like Jennings, Hi-Point, Bersa are made and people buy them.
Compare cherry with apple for size, apple always wins.
I am also a bit confused that one of the let-down's was the price and you got yours as a gift, so you feel sorry for those who paid for theirs at retail prices? How much you think it should cost to be fair?

This for ronin_asano too (I am well aware of the tests done).

In the H&K 2003 catalog #702059 and prior (I dont have the 2004 or 2005 on hand) H&K says on page 13:

"The HK Mark 23 Caliber .45 ACP pistol gives shooters match grade accuracy equal to that of the finest custom made guns- yet exceeds the most stringent operational requirements ever demanded of a combat gun."

"The Mark 23 provides this accuracy with out the need for hand fitted parts common in custom-built match pistols costing thousands of dollars more".

On the bottom feature part, the second thing listed is "Match Grade trigger" (first is the barrel).


Now to me they say the Mark 23 shoots better and costs less than other top end guns (yet I have others that cost less and shoot better). I feel thats is not true, might be why in the 2006 catalog and on line H&K does not say that any more. My gun was bought at cost in 2004 ($2,400) for the current price of about $1,800 and not listing a match grade trigger is fair.

I wounder how many people thought/think the Mark 23 had a match trigger and dont know what one feels like?

[Cav]

you said you have trouble holding the weapon steady, well, sorry, but that makes me start looking at the shooter, not the weapon. i have no problems holding the gun steady and making accurate shots. i don't know what i can do with it at 25 meters because the indoor range where i shoot only goes to 20 yards. however, at anything up to and including that distance, i have no trouble with this gun, even with my smaller hands.

i shoot the mark 23 much better than i shoot my tac .45, i can't comment on the expert or elite, since i do not own them, nor have i fired them.

btw, i just downloaded the operator's manual for the mark 23. at no point in the manual is there a claim that the mark 23 is equppied with a match grade trigger. the statement reads:

i must admit, that not being a competition shooter, i don't have much of an idea of what match grade accuracy is, but less than 2.5inches at 25 meters for five rounds sounds damn good to me.

once again, there is no mention of a match grade trigger group in this weapon. i'm not sure where you got that and with groups like mentioned above, i'm not sure why you'd need it.

I would like to see how steady most hold a weapon (might not be as staedy as you think). There are times when one knows how well one can shoot hand guns and long guns. When the accuracy is not there one must look at the factors. When I looked it was not me but the trigger that caused me to "pull" rounds. If the trigger was better the shots would have been better. If your a good shooter a good trigger will put the accuracy back on you, an o.k. trigger will take away from accuracy. Some people might never notice this, I do.

[ronin_asano]

This for ronin_asano too (I am well aware of the tests done).

In the H&K 2003 catalog #702059 and prior (I dont have the 2004 or 2005 on hand) H&K says on page 13:

"The HK Mark 23 Caliber .45 ACP pistol gives shooters match grade accuracy equal to that of the finest custom made guns- yet exceeds the most stringent operational requirements ever demanded of a combat gun."

"The Mark 23 provides this accuracy with out the need for hand fitted parts common in custom-built match pistols costing thousands of dollars more".

On the bottom feature part, the second thing listed is "Match Grade trigger" (first is the barrel).


Now to me they say the Mark 23 shoots better and costs less than other top end guns (yet I have others that cost less and shoot better). I feel thats is not true, might be why in the 2006 catalog and on line H&K does not say that any more. My gun was bought at cost in 2004 ($2,400) for the current price of about $1,800 and not listing a match grade trigger is fair.

I wounder how many people thought/think the Mark 23 had a match trigger and dont know what one feels like?

sure, maybe *you* do shoot other weapons better than you do the mark 23. does that mean the mark 23 is not capable of the numbers posted in the tests? i don't see how one could reach that conclusion. it seems to me that for whatever reason, *you* don't shoot the mark 23 at the height of its capabilities.

btw, i ran a search on the pdf of the manual, and match grade trigger does not come up at any point. do you have a scan or a screen shot? can you reference the page in question?

[ronin_asano]

I would like to see how steady most hold a weapon (might not be as staedy as you think). There are times when one knows how well one can shoot hand guns and long guns. When the accuracy is not there one must look at the factors. When I looked it was not me but the trigger that caused me to "pull" rounds. If the trigger was better the shots would have been better. If your a good shooter a good trigger will put the accuracy back on you, an o.k. trigger will take away from accuracy. Some people might never notice this, I do.

sure, i'm not claiming to benchrest steady. but i'm not shaking all over the place when i extend the weapon to shooting position. trigger pull has a great deal to do with it. whether in sa or da mode, you need to get the trigger moving and keep it moving at a steady pace all the way through the shot and follow through. this is not a custom 1911 with hardly a 1/4 inch of travel in the pull.

certainly the trigger pull will impact the way the weapon shoots. however, i don't expect to find a match grade competition hair trigger in a combat weapon system.

[Cav]

btw, i ran a search on the pdf of the manual, and match grade trigger does not come up at any point. do you have a scan or a screen shot? can you reference the page in question?

It was in the my quote you just used:
In the H&K 2003 catalog #702059 and prior (I dont have the 2004 or 2005 on hand) H&K says on page 13:

[ronin_asano]

it's listed on the hk defense webpage as a match grade trigger, probably taken from the catalog text as well. interesting. it's not there in the manual.

[Cav]

If you look under fetures the second thing metioned is match grade trigger.


http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/index.jsp?loc=101&SITEID=A&PartNumber=723001

[mikecleonard]

To me, the Mark23 is the coolest handgun I have ever handled. Not only does it look mean as hell, but I know its probably one of toughest, if not THE toughest handgun on the market.

Now, I also don't believe it should cost $2,000. I understand that a hair trigger is not a good idea for a combat handgun, but for how much it costs, I think it should have a smoother crisper trigger group than it does. I'm not saying it should be lighter, just feel cleaner is all.

I don't think it should cost over $1,500 new...but will I spend more than that?...YEP!

P.S. the only other thing I would change on the gun is for the controls to have a better finish...and maybe a rocket launcher:59:

[ronin_asano]

If you look under fetures the second thing metioned is match grade trigger.


http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/index.jsp?loc=101&SITEID=A&PartNumber=723001

yes, that's what i was referring to, although i mentioned a link at the hkdefense site.

[Red Cobra]

To me, the Mark23 is the coolest handgun I have ever handled. Not only does it look mean as hell, but I know its probably one of toughest, if not THE toughest handgun on the market.

Now, I also don't believe it should cost $2,000. I understand that a hair trigger is not a good idea for a combat handgun, but for how much it costs, I think it should have a smoother crisper trigger group than it does. I'm not saying it should be lighter, just feel cleaner is all.

I don't think it should cost over $1,500 new...but will I spend more than that?...YEP!

P.S. the only other thing I would change on the gun is for the controls to have a better finish...and maybe a rocket launcher:59:

Your right mikecleonard, it is mean as HELL! However, the controls DO have a nice finish.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/428SCJ/100_1543.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/428SCJ/100_1533.jpg

[G36gunner]

Wow, I posted a while ago, didn't think it'd resurface again. :) I'm glad it helped you guys, you just can't tell how large the Mark23 without some type of comparison.

As for Mark23 trigger, I've read various HK literatures, sometimes they mention it and sometimes not. My take is that it's not really "match trigger" per se. My Mark23 trigger is very nice and crisp, I would say on part with Tactical, but somehow does not feel as clean in the let-off. That's because the letoff is more solid. At the same time, it also doesn't have that plastic flex felt in the Tactical trigger. My feeling is that Mark23 is built on military spec, and it called for a combat trigger system that will produce high accuracy, but it's not really meant to be "match trigger", even if it felt like one. HK wont' be doing false marketing if it said Mark23 has match trigger, yet at the same time, Mark23 trigger was designed as is per spec, not with match trigger in mind. Either way, I think Mark23 trigger is slightly less "match worthy" compared to Tactical triggers, but due to its design, it's also more robust.

[david75]

That's an awesome comparison, the additional money for the M23 is sure is worth it as far as I am concern!

[sfguard]

So now I have to go out and get a big brother for my tactical thanks alot my bank account really appreciates it.

[HKMAN1000]

Great post, I was going to do a comparison too but I saw yours first.

here's some of the photos I took anyway.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/Gixer1000/Handguns/Mark23vsUSP45Tactical01.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/Gixer1000/Handguns/Mark23vsUSP45Tactical02.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/Gixer1000/Handguns/Mark23vsUSP45Tactical03.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/Gixer1000/Handguns/Mark23vsUSP45Tactical04.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/Gixer1000/Handguns/Mark23vsUSP45Tactical05.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/Gixer1000/Handguns/Mark23vsUSP45Tactical06.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/Gixer1000/Handguns/Mark23vsUSP45Tactical07.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/Gixer1000/Handguns/Mark23vsUSP45Tactical08.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/Gixer1000/Handguns/Mark23vsUSP45Tactical09.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Gixerman1000/HKMk23USPTactical.jpg

[mew]

cause now I want one!!!!!!!!!

[G36gunner]

Nice photos HKMan. Now somebody just needs to add the comparison with HK45 and we'll see how the internals compare.

[Taterporkchop]

G36Gunner; Great post. I HAD a Tactical and Mk23; I sold the Mk23(I made a few Hundred bucks on the sale)because I really feel like they are so similar, only the Tac is a bit more handy. After viewing the side-bys of the internals and barrel's, you can sure see how and why it was chosen. A big +1 to sticky this thread.

[ROLEXrifleman]

For what it's worth , I'm picking up my 23 this weekend and hitting the range with it and my USP Match. If interested I'll post results (even though skewed by the human factor) and pics of it compared to a closer in size .45 and not a DE. Everyone forgets about the .45 WINMAG LAR!!!!!

[HKMAN1000]

Took these last night for a topic in anther forum and thought you guys might like them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Gixerman1000/DEMK-XIXvsHKMK-23.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Gixerman1000/DEMK-XIXvsHKMK-232.jpg

[ironchef]

That Desert Eagle makes the Mark 23 look like a squirt gun! Nice pics! :D

[.45ACP]

Took these last night for a topic in anther forum and thought you guys might like them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Gixerman1000/DEMK-XIXvsHKMK-23.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Gixerman1000/DEMK-XIXvsHKMK-232.jpg

Right Click, Save As

This will make a cool wallpaper.

[G3Kurz]

Wow, I posted a while ago, didn't think it'd resurface again. :) I'm glad it helped you guys, you just can't tell how large the Mark23 without some type of comparison.

As for Mark23 trigger, I've read various HK literatures, sometimes they mention it and sometimes not. My take is that it's not really "match trigger" per se. My Mark23 trigger is very nice and crisp, I would say on part with Tactical, but somehow does not feel as clean in the let-off. That's because the letoff is more solid. At the same time, it also doesn't have that plastic flex felt in the Tactical trigger. My feeling is that Mark23 is built on military spec, and it called for a combat trigger system that will produce high accuracy, but it's not really meant to be "match trigger", even if it felt like one. HK wont' be doing false marketing if it said Mark23 has match trigger, yet at the same time, Mark23 trigger was designed as is per spec, not with match trigger in mind. Either way, I think Mark23 trigger is slightly less "match worthy" compared to Tactical triggers, but due to its design, it's also more robust.

Clarification. I was on the HK development team for the MK23 MOD 0 when it was the OHWS (prototype). The military spec did not call for a "match" trigger but did define the trigger pull characteristics (weight, travel, feel, etc.). The commercial "Mark 23" literature may have referred to it as a "Match" or "Match-grade" trigger at some point that should not be confused in any way with a lightened and tuned match-grade trigger as found say on a M1911 or in the USP "Match" or Tactical models by HK that were in fact described as "Match" triggers and were lightened and tuned with special parts and springs. The military MK23 MOD 0 was developed as per the well defined (overdefined in my opinion) and detailed specs developed by the joint SOCOM user community. The MK23 delivered everything they asked for and met and exceeded all specs with the one exception of the "Enhanced" .45 ACP round they asked for (i.e. +P+) that no ammo company would make for liability reasons. The MK23 trigger comes from the factory as is to survive 24,000 rounds/trigger pulls without failure, to fire any round in all conditions (even arctic temps when primers become less sensitive to firing pin strikes) and very importantly that the hammer not release or strike the firing pin when the weapon is dropped from 2 meters onto a steel/concrete surface - WITH the LAM and suppressor attached and 12 rounds loaded. A VERY TOUGH requirement that the MK23 met with robust parts, heavier springs and the unique rubber hammer spur insert later used on other HK pistols for the same reason. To do that one must sacrifice some trigger pull quality to insure proper function and safety in harsh environments. The comercial USP45T passes this same drop test requirement but cannot stand up to the long term use or temp extremes that the MK23 can - wasn't required to. All this being said a competent shooter with an issue MK23 trigger can hit head size plates at 100 meters all day long.
A little back ground for those interested.
G3Kurz

[Omega Man]

I haven't had a chance to shoot either for some time. Big Bore's right about the "human" limiting factor. I noticed that Tactical shot better than USP45, but I would attribute it to match trigger. The Mark23 have a match trigger feel too (not as light however) so I would expect Mark23 to shoot well too.

Here's another look at the frame differences. The thing that really caught my eyes was the massive recoil spring system. It really is pretty awe inspiring just seeing them. There are no other handgun that has such big and strong springs. Even the Desert Eagle uses a double coiled dual spring system, but their springs are much smaller. Next time I'll do a cmparison of Mark23 and DE. That'll make the video gamers drool. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/6514/hkmark23tactical85lh.jpg
Between the spring and the size of the Mark 23 itself, the recoil must be very mild. But i think its only the ultimate combat pistol for Lou Ferrigno or Hulk Hogan.

[harrydog]

Between the spring and the size of the Mark 23 itself, the recoil must be very mild. But i think its only the ultimate combat pistol for Lou Ferrigno or Hulk Hogan.
Is the recoil really that mild? I've never shot a Mark 23 but I've seen people shoot them and recoil looks about the same as a standard USP. That's just based on the amount of muzzle rise and gun movement during recoil. But again, I have not shot one myself.

[.45ACP]

Clarification. I was on the HK development team for the MK23 MOD 0 when it was the OHWS (prototype). The military spec did not call for a "match" trigger but did define the trigger pull characteristics (weight, travel, feel, etc.). The commercial "Mark 23" literature may have referred to it as a "Match" or "Match-grade" trigger at some point that should not be confused in any way with a lightened and tuned match-grade trigger as found say on a M1911 or in the USP "Match" or Tactical models by HK that were in fact described as "Match" triggers and were lightened and tuned with special parts and springs. The military MK23 MOD 0 was developed as per the well defined (overdefined in my opinion) and detailed specs developed by the joint SOCOM user community. The MK23 delivered everything they asked for and met and exceeded all specs with the one exception of the "Enhanced" .45 ACP round they asked for (i.e. +P+) that no ammo company would make for liability reasons. The MK23 trigger comes from the factory as is to survive 24,000 rounds/trigger pulls without failure, to fire any round in all conditions (even arctic temps when primers become less sensitive to firing pin strikes) and very importantly that the hammer not release or strike the firing pin when the weapon is dropped from 2 meters onto a steel/concrete surface - WITH the LAM and suppressor attached and 12 rounds loaded. A VERY TOUGH requirement that the MK23 met with robust parts, heavier springs and the unique rubber hammer spur insert later used on other HK pistols for the same reason. To do that one must sacrifice some trigger pull quality to insure proper function and safety in harsh environments. The comercial USP45T passes this same drop test requirement but cannot stand up to the long term use or temp extremes that the MK23 can - wasn't required to. All this being said a competent shooter with an issue MK23 trigger can hit head size plates at 100 meters all day long.
A little back ground for those interested.
G3Kurz


You guys did a great job, I love my Mark 23s. I consider it the finest combat handgun of all time.

[99999]

Clarification. I was on the HK development team for the MK23 MOD 0 when it was the OHWS (prototype). The military spec did not call for a "match" trigger but did define the trigger pull characteristics (weight, travel, feel, etc.). The commercial "Mark 23" literature may have referred to it as a "Match" or "Match-grade" trigger at some point that should not be confused in any way with a lightened and tuned match-grade trigger as found say on a M1911 or in the USP "Match" or Tactical models by HK that were in fact described as "Match" triggers and were lightened and tuned with special parts and springs. The military MK23 MOD 0 was developed as per the well defined (overdefined in my opinion) and detailed specs developed by the joint SOCOM user community. The MK23 delivered everything they asked for and met and exceeded all specs with the one exception of the "Enhanced" .45 ACP round they asked for (i.e. +P+) that no ammo company would make for liability reasons. The MK23 trigger comes from the factory as is to survive 24,000 rounds/trigger pulls without failure, to fire any round in all conditions (even arctic temps when primers become less sensitive to firing pin strikes) and very importantly that the hammer not release or strike the firing pin when the weapon is dropped from 2 meters onto a steel/concrete surface - WITH the LAM and suppressor attached and 12 rounds loaded. A VERY TOUGH requirement that the MK23 met with robust parts, heavier springs and the unique rubber hammer spur insert later used on other HK pistols for the same reason. To do that one must sacrifice some trigger pull quality to insure proper function and safety in harsh environments. The comercial USP45T passes this same drop test requirement but cannot stand up to the long term use or temp extremes that the MK23 can - wasn't required to. All this being said a competent shooter with an issue MK23 trigger can hit head size plates at 100 meters all day long.
A little back ground for those interested.
G3Kurz

Thank you very much for all of the added info, I love hearing more about HK development, etc...

[NiceHK]

Thank you very much for all of the added info, I love hearing more about HK development, etc...

+1 Thanks

[Savior 6]

G3Kurz, Thanks for the Awesome info. The OHWS is possibly my favorite weapon system and a great concept weapon.

.45ACP, Thanks for digging this back up with your cool pics. It's always cool to learn more about the Mk23/Mark 23.

[cyclops24]

I really am trying to say no to the MK23 but it is getting harder and harder.

[99999]

I really am trying to say no to the MK23 but it is getting harder and harder.

Why say "No" when it feels sooooooo good to say "Yes"?

I did.... twice....

=)

[harrydog]

I want to like the Mark 23. Actually I do like the Mark 23 in terms of the over engineering that went into it. But I can't convince myself to buy one just due to the impractical size of it. For the civilian market it's a novelty, pure and simple, not that there's anything wrong with that.
I looked at one in the shop yesterday, trying to convince myself that I should buy one but it's just too freaking big for my tastes.

[HK_bug]

any chance, can someone make a comparison to the new HK 45 or 45c? I'm sure most of us on here would like to see them apples...

[alwaysforward]

What a great comparison - well done and thank you.

I vote "yes" for a sticky!!

[cyclops24]

Why say "No" when it feels sooooooo good to say "Yes"?

I did.... twice....

=)

I decided to say YES! Just picked one off on gunbroker. AI date code, NIB for $1650! I can't wait to get it!

[Turless]

G36 - well done. Excellent side by side comparison. Had always heard that Mark 23 was bigger/beefier/heavier but in this case a couple of pictures really are worth a thousand words.

Agreed thank you for posting this for comparision. I have always wanted a MK23 but could never find an affordable one oh well perhaps someday :).

[Fritz Werner]

The MK23 trigger comes from the factory as is to survive 24,000 rounds/trigger pulls without failure, to fire any round in all conditions (even arctic temps when primers become less sensitive to firing pin strikes)
G3Kurz

"The Independent" reports today that a British lady who aims to become the first woman to trek solo to the North Pole "will be armed with a Heckler and Koch 9mm pistol to protect herself from polar bears."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/explorer-uses-snow-to-prepare-for-arctic-expedition-1544127.html

[Ronnie77]

"The Independent" reports today that a British lady who aims to become the first woman to trek solo to the North Pole "will be armed with a Heckler and Koch 9mm pistol to protect herself from polar bears."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/explorer-uses-snow-to-prepare-for-arctic-expedition-1544127.html

As much as I love the 9mm cartridge, it is not really the round I would have in mind to protect me from polar bears... At least a full size .45

Good choice on the HK
Not so good choice on the 9mm

[nickorette]

Has anybody done a range report comparison between the two? Does the larger sight radius on the MK23 or the better trigger on the Tactical sway accuracy in one direction or the other?

[benderx4]

I've owned both, and both guns are much more accurate than me. I traded the Mark 23 for 4 other guns I was dying for, and although I regret that decision, the USP45T makes me feel much better about it.

[silesius]

More temptation to lay the bucks on a MK23.

[Mark 23]

this is a nice post. it makes me want to go out and buy a mark 23, this should be a sticky

[perrk]

Great post, helped me make up my mind to get a Mk23. Thank you all.

[vinnymac]

Great comparison. I shot a Mark23 years ago and I also own a 45 Tactical. They are definitely very different. I found the Mark23 to be a bit bulky to handle...and I have large hands. However, the 45 Tactical is just about right and very easy to shoot.

[Torontogunguy]

"The Independent" reports today that a British lady who aims to become the first woman to trek solo to the North Pole "will be armed with a Heckler and Koch 9mm pistol to protect herself from polar bears."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/explorer-uses-snow-to-prepare-for-arctic-expedition-1544127.html

One really wonders where the thinking is behind this... she is going to have to stick the 9mm in the polar bear's eye and pull the trigger to get ANY sort of reaction. I have my doubts that a 9mm will do much more than penetrate the hide of the bear and really tick it off. But, then again, this is from a country where handguns are totally banned so I doubt they would know the difference between 9mm and .50 cal, which is probably what I would be carrying (A full size desert eagle) if I had my choice.... and couldn't carry a rifle in one of them there "African calibers". Jeez, 9mm has a tough time busting a car window.

[Maximus]

you sir make me jealous! ;)

The MK23 is next on my HK list....heck its next on my gun list period! :D

[mew]

this thread actually made me start looking for a MK23. I just obtained mine NIB and also have a .45 Tactical. night and day,the difference is obvious as far as size, operation of decocking and safety etc. and will take some getting used to. I am used to decockers like the USP and SIG having one control. I do like the separate controls on the Mk.23, kind of sets it apart like the rest of it's differences and thats what makes it so unique. contrary to the anti Mk23. crowd, there really is nothing else like it........

[I want a Mk23]

anti Mk23.

BLASPHEMY !

[Thray]

I always liked this photo of my Mark23 to show off its heft:

http://elucidus.smugmug.com/photos/620573464_3gdf5-L-1.jpg

[G3Kurz]

In one of my old H&K catalogs (2001-2003) it says its a match trigger in the 23, in the newer 2006 catalog it makes no mention. Wounder if they changed anything along the way. 2006 cat also says its a Martime finish not the HO.

These "Match" triggers are two different animals alltogether. The Match trigger used in the USP family is a upgrade kit comprised of the trigger with stop and spring kit. It was first developed to improve the trigger pull of the "USP Match" model and later used in the USP Sport, Tactical, Expert, etc and fits in standard USP's - serial number dependent.

The MK23/Mark23 "Match Grade" trigger was not an upgrade but the original designed parts for the pistol to meet SOCOM specs and expectations. The USP and MK23 Match parts are not interchangeable. The SOCOM OHWS Specs required that the candidates have a "Match Grade" trigger as the specs were written in part by old M1911 shooters (SEAL and Navy Cross receipient RJ Thomas was one) and that is where that term Match was applied to the MK23/Mark23 literature.

As a general rule the work Match refers to better than standard issue such as in a M1911 where the parts are modified to lower the trigger pull weight and improve the trigger pull qualities. The major accomplishment in the MK23/Mark23 was to improve the trigger pull quality while still insuring reliable function in all environments to include rough handling (6' drop test with LAM and suppressor and 13-rds 45 ball loaded - not an easy task!)

G3Kurz

[G3Kurz]

How could it not win, Colt pulled out of the competition.

Not Correct Scooter.
Colt did not "pull out" but was eliminated during the OHWS Phase I testing and downselect due to technical issues. Their rotary barrel platform though clever was not ready for prime time. One must gun them great credit for even participating as the gun design was not theirs (nor was the suppressor and/or LAM) and only HK and Colt bothered to participate in a VERY TOUGH requirement.
G3Kurz