Why HK?

[Stupid]

Just curious, what is your compelling reason to buy HK besides you shoot better with HK.

I am thinking about getting a P2000 but cannot seem to talk myself into spending the money.

[sixfootbrit]

Quality, engineering, reliability. Not necessarily in that order.

[Stupid]

Would you ellaborate a little more?

Quality, engineering, reliability. Not necessarily in that order.

[HK_Shooter]

Would you ellaborate a little more?


The P2000 you are looking at is a refinement of the USP.

And this is how they tested.

http://www.streetpro.com/usp/torture.html

[MrShipwreck]

I knew HK was a great brand, and had been looking at USPs off and on for years. Finally, I got one because I was getting rid of a headache TRP 1911. And, w/ the frame safety, I saw that I could keep the gun cocked and locked. And, the frame safety is a similiar size to 1911s. I have seen some that are so small that they are not that easy to use in a crisis situation.

After I got the fullsize one, I got the compact :)

[nwusp45]

A handgun has to work, and unless you have hundreds of rounds, and are the gunsmith tinkering type, need a gun with out of the box reliabiltiy. Something that will feed nearly every type of ammunition out there. HK's are that reliable. Good, comfortable grip. The P2000, and all HK's except for maybe a USP 45 with a small person hands, easily fit in the hand. Good trigger pull. The LEM is 10 times better than any Glock I've fired, and nearly as good as allot of single action triggers out there. Accuracy. HK's have exceptional above industry standard accuracy. If you could put it in a vise and aim it at the same place, it will darn near hit the same hole every time. HK's can be shot lubed up, dry, dirty..very tough. Its can be abused and neglected and still work.

And as far as the 1911 TRP headache, I feel your pain. After carrying a reliable USP 40 for a number of years, I went and tried Kimber TLE...it must have been made on a Friday or something because I couldn't get it to work for me...to releive the headache, I bought a USP 45 and now carry it cocked and locked.

[Shakey]

If you're worried about spending the money maybe you shouldn't be looking at HK, or Sig, or any number of quality handguns. Safety, reliability and accuracy are major factors I consider. My HKs are some of the most accurate guns I own right out of the box. Other guns can be made accurate, but at a price above and beyond the initial cost. By the time you've done that you could have purchased an HK. When buying a handgun it's not the time to get the K-Mart mentality. You can shop around and get the best price for the gun you want, but spend the extra cash and get a good weapon to begin with. The HK if properly cared for should function as advertised and last you a lifetime. That's what you get for your money. There's not many things out there you can say that about.

[Stupid]

Hmm, in terms reliability, I have both Beretta 92FS and Glock 19, they are flawless. I have yet to produce one single failure. In terms accuracy, all my guns are more accurate than me. :-(

[pbauw]

I consider HK polymer framed handguns to be equal and possibly superior to combat handguns produced by Sig Sauer and Glock. Generally speaking, HK's are priced higher than Glock and comparably to Sig Sauer. The USP45 and USP45C is a value to me because they include a combination of features that I consider desirable in a self defense arm: cocked and locked capable, polymer frame, steel mags, corrosion resistance, steel sights.

I don't feel the least bit uncomfortable trusting my life to a USP. I wouldn't feel uncomfortable trusting my life to a Glock or Sig Sauer. I would recommend testing various models from the previously mentioned manufacturers and buy whichever model appeals to you the most.

[christian812]

Well, I'm quite sure that a 92 FS or Glock 19 are very good handguns.
Probably as reliable as a H&K P2000.

I come from the Sig world (P228 and P226). I like DA/SA handguns with decocker, so the 92 is not for me and I've never get used to Glock trigger.
Sold my P228 (but will keep forever the P226) for a H&K P2000 VO / DA-LEM w. decocker (not sold in the US), just cause I wanted a polymer frame.

Despite some troubles in the beginning, this P2000 is now my favourite carry.
Quality and engineering quality are really impressive.

Now, if you're happy with your G 19 ... no reasons to double it with a P2000.
In the compact size, they're quite similar.

[Jeff S.]

H&K, Glock, SIG, and the rest are all reliable, accurate (enough), and durable.

When I was looking to buy a new handgun, my primary interest was in reliability. I knew that all the guns I on my list had a reputation for reliability. Therefore, I used such factors as ergonomics and features as the means to personally distinguish different handguns. I already own a glock, and they fit me pretty well; however, I must cock my wrist forward in order to align the sights. I just do not like the feel and controls of SIGs, though I could feel the quality. H&K's, though I bit thick, fit me very, very well. I also happen to be a proponent of cocked and locked carry. All-in-all, H&K was the gun that I kept fondling.

Truth be told, I cannot wait for the HK45. I don't care about it because of the hype; it just happens to be exactly what I want from Heckler and Koch.

[Q-ballHK40]

Just curious, what is your compelling reason to buy HK besides you shoot better with HK.

I am thinking about getting a P2000 but cannot seem to talk myself into spending the money.


If you have a Glock and a Beretta that are flawless, than the main reason you are buying the HK is because you WANT it, so it is going to be hard for anyonje here to talk you into it.. You're just going to have to decide...

Sixfootbrit said; Quality, engineering, reliability, and you asked him to elaborate... there is nothing to elaborate on... HK's are considered some of the finest firearms EVER made. The MP5 and the P7's set the standard of a premium firearm. In my opinion the USP's and the newer P series aren't far off that benchmark. That pretty much covers quaility and engineering. As far as reliablity goes, I have had a USPc since 97 and haven't replaced ANYTHING on it and it has never even hiccupped. Probably had 5000 rounds through it(not a whole lot for almost 10yrs) but it has been loaded the whole time and the mags still work flawlessly and the gun never has any firing issues.

All in all, it is your descision. If you like the gun, and it feels good in your hand, BUY IT, you won't regret it. Is it better than you Glock and Beretta... No, probably not. IMO, it is better feeling than a Glock, but as far as quality goes, they are probably equals. Both the Glock and HK could take a beating better than a Beretta.

good luck with your choice.

[Q-ballHK40]

Also, if you browse other forums, you will read MANY complaints about the firearms talked about on such firearms(i.e. Glock, 1911's..etc). If you notice, in this forum, there aren't many complaints at all... There are some, that's only natural, but there aren't many..

I am a HK nut and a 1911 nut(Actually probably more of a 1911 nut). but if the Sh*t hits the fan, I'll be grabbing my HK first!

[Stupid]

I know my Colt 45 is not so great. Jams all the time, but I haven't heard any complaint on either 92FS or Glock. Would you mind showing me some of the complaints?

[Scooter]

The only great pistols that HK has made are P7's and P9's. The rest of them aren't any better than the other plastic guns.

[Q-ballHK40]

The only great pistols that HK has made are P7's and P9's. The rest of them aren't any better than the other plastic guns.
I agree. I personally like HK's better than Glocks, Ruger, S&W..etc..... and I think they have a better grip and trigger feel to them vs other plastic pistols. But they are NO better in terms of quality.

Stupid: Why is it you post that you are interested in the P2000 but you have a sarcastic remark to any post that says anything good about HK. I never said that your Beretta or your Glock or you Colt for that matter wasn't a good gun. I have had 2 Glocks(I didn't like the feel of them)but they were damn nice guns... I never said I READ a post complaining about Beretta 92FS. I have read posts complaining about the grip shape of Glocks, and about the fact that they tend to jam when shot limpwristed(I know a lot of guns suffer from this). I can't point you to these post now. I have been reading gun forums for 5-6years and I have seen them in the past...

Look, I and everone else that has posted is trying to help, I am sorry that you took my post as a bash against your Beretta and Glock, It was not. Hey, if you like them, use them and don't buy the HK..... That's up to you.. I was just trying to point out some interesting facts that I have seen about HK's Sorry to offend you.

[Stupid]

Q-ball, I am just trying to understand. I am curious about the reason that many of you choose HK over others. Is there anything significantly superier in HK? Quality, reliability, etc.?

My goal is to have one firearm from each major brand. :-) But what makes HK different from Beretta, Glock or Sig? I have already have them all, and now eyeing on the HKs.

[Q-ballHK40]

Q-ball, I am just trying to understand. I am curious about the reason that many of you choose HK over others. Is there anything significantly superier in HK? Quality, reliability, etc.?

My goal is to have one firearm from each major brand. :-) But what makes HK different from Beretta, Glock or Sig? I have already have them all, and now eyeing on the HKs.

Honestly, they are in NO way Superior to each other. Glock, Sig, Beretta, and HK are all top of the line guns. Like i said before, I liked the reliablity of My Glock's, but I didn't like the way they felt in my hand. I have only felt one Beretta in my life. An Elite II two tone, and it was one of the nicest feeling guns I have every held in my hand, but I don't non cocked and locked pistols and I am not a fan of 9mm.

I think if you like the P2000 and you have the money, buy it, you won't be dissappointed. If your trying to find a better firearm than you already have you won't with the P2000. It's just different not better. It's damn good....but so are the others. :)

[sixfootbrit]

If you already have one of each competitor, or want one, then why rationalise getting an HK? For you, what difference does it make? Asking us why we think an HK is better etc is a pointless endeavour; the real question is why do YOU want an HK? Coming on this forum and asking such a question as yours, responding to the answers given as you have, and given the amount of HK information provided elsewhere in this site, makes you look kinda like a, dare I say it, troll.....

[Stupid]

Want to see if there's anything that I don't know.

[sixfootbrit]

Then please, tell us what you do know, It'll be easier.

[Jeff S.]

Want to see if there's anything that I don't know.

Well, you're learning that such questions delve into the realm of philosophy ;)

"Value" is a relative, and the worth, or worthiness, of any product is determined by the user. For some, H&K is worth the price. For others, it's not.

In other words, the "value," or acceptance of price, is determined by the buyer. If you cannot imagine youself buying a P2000 because of the price, then don't buy one, else you'll likely experience buyers remorse. However, you could also be a smart shopper and wait/look for a great deal either on a new or used P2000.

Opinions from GlockTalk:
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=548462

[Stupid]

I only know HK is much more expensive.

[Stupid]

Very true!

This is why I am trying to understand how HK lovers justify the cost and how they perceive the value.

Well, you're learning that such questions delve into the realm of philosophy ;)

"Value" is a relative, and the worth, or worthiness, of any product is determined by the user. For some, H&K is worth the price. For others, it's not.

In other words, the "value," or acceptance of price, is determined by the buyer. If you cannot imagine youself buying a P2000 because of the price, then don't buy one, else you'll likely experience buyers remorse. However, you could also be a smart shopper and wait/look for a great deal either on a new or used P2000.

[pbauw]

Also, if you browse other forums, you will read MANY complaints about the firearms talked about on such firearms(i.e. Glock, 1911's..etc). If you notice, in this forum, there aren't many complaints at all... There are some, that's only natural, but there aren't many..

That probably has more to do with the fact that more people own 1911s and Glocks in the US than HKs. I'd wager that the percentage of problems experienced by end-users of Glock and HK handguns is proportionately equal or damn close.

[Q-ballHK40]

That probably has more to do with the fact that more people own 1911s and Glocks in the US than HKs. I'd wager that the percentage of problems experienced by end-users of Glock and HK handguns is proportionately equal or damn close.

I might agree, but since we are talking a specific brand type forum, that throws the percentages WAY off. Almost EVERYONE on this forum owns a HK, yet they don't complain as much. Go to a Kimber, or Springfield forum, and look at all the Kimber owners complaining about their Kimber, or Springfield or whatever.... I don't visit Glock forums AT all, since they don't interest me because I've tried them and they didn't work for me. And like i said... Glocks are VERY good guns, and just as good as HK's...

I'm just trying to show that out of the of people on this forum who have HK's... Only a VERY small amount have issues....

[Q-ballHK40]

Opinions from GlockTalk:
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=548462

I didn't notice at first, but these post on Glocktalk are STUPID as well. and they are just as sarcastic.... What is up with that. And what's with everyone complaining about costs on that G.T. thread?????? Glocks and HK cost almost the same in my area.... Glocks $600+ HK's $650+ On the web HK's are cheaper than that. And what's with complaining about $50 magazines.... When.. Pre Clinton Ban??? They aren't more than $39 for Hi-caps. Cal's Sporting Armory has 10r rounders for $8-13 and If you buy a $38 hi-cap you get a free 10 rounder!!!!! Sounds damn cheap! Two mags for less than $40. New HK pistols come with 2 mags... Glocks come with 1 so that justifies some of the price difference.....

This is rediculous.... Buy the P2000 or carry your Glock.. You'll be just as safe and you'll be happy either way.

Stupid, if you really are interested in the P2000 search this forum. I think you'll get a lot of good info. You've gotten a lot on this thread alone...

[pbauw]

I didn't notice at first, but these post on Glocktalk are STUPID as well. and they are just as sarcastic.... What is up with that. And what's with everyone complaining about costs on that G.T. thread?????? Glocks and HK cost almost the same in my area.... Glocks $600+ HK's $650+ On the web HK's are cheaper than that. And what's with complaining about $50 magazines.... When.. Pre Clinton Ban??? They aren't more than $39 for Hi-caps. Cal's Sporting Armory has 10r rounders for $8-13 and If you buy a $38 hi-cap you get a free 10 rounder!!!!! Sounds damn cheap! Two mags for less than $40. New HK pistols come with 2 mags... Glocks come with 1 so that justifies some of the price difference.....

This is rediculous.... Buy the P2000 or carry your Glock.. You'll be just as safe and you'll be happy either way.

Stupid, if you really are interested in the P2000 search this forum. I think you'll get a lot of good info. You've gotten a lot on this thread alone...

The price disparity the Glock Talk posters are referring to is the difference between a $45+ USP45 mag and a $15+ G21 mag. Also, a Glock 21 goes for $500+, a USP45 for $650+, generally speaking of course. There definitely is a price difference between Glock and HK/Sig. It's a difference that I can justify.

PS: All new Glocks come with two magazines.

[Q-ballHK40]

PS: All new Glocks come with two magazines.

Thank you for correcting me.... Sorry for that. When I bought mine 7yr+ ago they didn't. That was my ignorance.

Gander Mtn has the G21 here for $599. They don't have the USPf.45 so I can't quote that price. My Compact was $699 at local gunstore. That was 9yrs ago, but I know the prices haven't risen that much and that's comparing Gander Mtn vs gunstore which sells gun for $100-200 more. Maybe prices are better elsewhere. I know I can get a USPf.45 on the web for less that $700, but I cold probably get a Glock for less too.... So I will admit my ignorance here...... but like you say. I can justify the cost, just due to fact I prefer the feel of the HK over the Glock..... That's worth $100 to me. Maybe if they were equally comfortable I would buy the Glock!

[Q-ballHK40]

$40 for a good magazine is a decent price in the gun world. Hell the only good mags for 1911's run $35 and up..... How Glock does it for $15 is amazing.. I guess they make a lot more so they can sell them for cheaper.....

[joehk]

Very true!

This is why I am trying to understand how HK lovers justify the cost and how they perceive the value.

I started as a Sig fan, with a P226 back in the day. Still am one. I then spent a little extra money and bought my first HK and that was all she wrote. I've had the Berrettas, 1911, Kahr's, SW etc. and keep coming back. Although I like my G19, the previous G23 and the 36 especially was a POS.

Sig's now are either as expensive or more expensive depending on model and availability. I've some to appreciate the flexability HK offers, ie in the ability to carry cocked and locked or DA/SA and the LEM is better than the DAK IMO.

Once you buy one, or use one extensively, you'll come to appreciate the value. But to say they are more expensive than Sigs is not totally accurate. Again, much of that depends on availability and is different in different areas of the country.

[Fooboy]

I think its safe to say that most modern handguns with a price tag of $500+ are going to be accurage, reliable, and robust. I had a Beretta 92FS for a while and I loved it. Shot Glocks and Browning Hi-Powers, Sigs, HK's ... all impeccable guns. To an extent, a lot of these decisions come down to just "which one do you like".

However, that being said, if I had to pick one gun and was never able to clean it, strip it, replace a spring or anything - the only one I would take would be an HK. German OVER-Engineering is an understatement. Sig's are excellent, but I am not educated on how well they resist long term environmental conditions and high round torture tests ... could be great, just being honest, I dont know. I think glocks are close ... both have polymer frames (HK was first with the VP70 in 1968), both have polygonal rifling for increased barrel life, both have good street records, both can take a lot of environmental abuse (sand, water, dust), Glocks are cheaper ... however they aren't designed to take the long term punishment USPs can take. HK assures that USPs will stomach +P rounds with nothing but accellerated wear (thanks to the recoil buffering system). Sure, lots of people shoot +P stuff through their guns, but I don't see the gun manufacturer stepping out and printing out in writing in their manuals an endorsement to shoot +P stuff. That says a lot to me.

From: http://remtek.com/arms/hk/civ/usp/usp.htm

"HK firearms are known worldwide for their accuracy. Testing with a variety of ammunition proved the USP meets these high standards. The HK patented recoil reduction system, a mechanical dual spring buffering device, is another feature common to the USP and the HK Special Operations Pistol. During the USP testing phase, HK engineers discovered this innovative unit reduces the peak force acting on the USP grip to less than 300 Newtons (66 pounds). Peak force shock on competing .40 caliber polymer and metal framed pistols climbed to more than 5000 Newtons (1,102 pounds). The primary benefit of low peak shock is a decrease in wear and tear on pistol components, a great concern with the powerful +P cartridge in 9mm, 40 S&W. and.45 ACP. Reduction of peak shock forces also contributes to softer recoil for the shooter, although these "felt recoil" values are much more subjective."

&

"The USP recoil reduction system is insensitive to ammunition types and requires no special adjustment or maintenance. It functions effectively in all USP models. Using this same recoil reduction system, one of the HK.45 ACP Special Operations Pistols fired more than 30,000 +P cartridges and 6,000 proof loads without damage to any major components."

&

"The testing process of the USP, already extreme, exceeded strict NATO AC-225 Military Specification Standards and in many ways mirrors the regimen the HK Special Operations Pistol was subjected to by US Government testers. The barrel of the USP is cold-hammer forged from a high-grade chromium steel - the same type of steel used in cannon barrels. For increased velocity and longer barrel life, all USP barrels now have a polygonal profile. During testing, a bullet was deliberately lodged in a USP barrel. Another cartridge was then fired into the obstructing bullet. The second bullet cleared the barrel, resulting in a barely noticeable bulge. The pistol was then fired for accuracy and the resulting group measured less than 2 1/2 inches at 25 meters.

Other less destructive tests reveal much about USP reliability and durability. Function testing a wide selection of ammunition types, one test gun fired more than 10,000 rounds without a single malfunction. That means no stovepipes, no failures to feed or eject; no jams! Endurance firing of test samples has passed 24,000 rounds of high performance .40 S&W ammunition without any parts failures. Severe temperature tests required the USP be frozen at -44°F (-42°C) and then fired, frozen again, quickly heated to 153 F° (67°C), and then fired again. These temperature spectrum tests were continually repeated with no adverse effects on the USP.

Demanding NATO Mil-Spec mud and rain tests were conducted, again with the USP passing without difficulty. Water immersion and salt spray also presented no problems to the USP. Outside metal surfaces of the USP are covered with an extremely hard nitro-gas carburized and black oxidized finish. Interal metal parts are coated with a special Dow-Corning© process that reduces friction and wear. Both the intemal and exteral finishes have proved to be especially corrosion resistant. For more than two years, German Navy combat divers have used the same process on weapons parts without any signs of rust or corrosion.

Safety testing exceeded the ANSI/SAAMI requirements adopted in May 1990. These included dropping a USP with a primed cartridge and decocked hammer on a variety of hard surfaces without discharging. The USP easily surpassed these commercial requirements, as well as tough German Army and police tests including repeated drop tests from six feet, hammer first, onto a steel backed concrete slab. Proof round firing resulted in no cracks, deformations, or increase in head space. Attempts to fire the USP pistol with an unlocked breech proved impossible."

[Shakey]

I only know HK is much more expensive.

Very true!

This is why I am trying to understand how HK lovers justify the cost and how they perceive the value.

Hey Stupid,

I think it's fair to say you own a couple of handguns you're happy with and were obviously priced right, or you wouldn't have bought them. You probably have no intention of purchasing an HK, or any other high end weapon for that matter so my question to you is...why do you care what we think of the guns we prefer? What's the point? Stick with your Bersas and Glocks and don't fret as to how we spend our hard earned dollars. I just came back from a day at the range with my USP .45 Tactical and loved every minute of it. It will continue to entertain me without fail for as long as I live and will then do the same for one of my sons long after I'm gone. You've already decided they are too rich for your taste and not demonstrably superior to other guns to justify the cost. So be it. enjoy shooting what you have and we'll do the same.

[Stupid]

Glocks sells $450 NIB with 2 15rd mags. This is the price people pay nowadays. If you pay more than that, you need to get online.

HK P2000 is around $650. The difference is $200.

$40 for a good magazine is a decent price in the gun world. Hell the only good mags for 1911's run $35 and up..... How Glock does it for $15 is amazing.. I guess they make a lot more so they can sell them for cheaper.....

[Stupid]

I don't own Bersas. When you say "high end weapon", what do you mean "high end"? What makes HK high end? (I guess that is my ultimate question)

I do own a Sig 229R DAK though.

Hey Stupid,

I think it's fair to say you own a couple of handguns you're happy with and were obviously priced right, or you wouldn't have bought them. You probably have no intention of purchasing an HK, or any other high end weapon for that matter so my question to you is...why do you care what we think of the guns we prefer? What's the point? Stick with your Bersas and Glocks and don't fret as to how we spend our hard earned dollars. I just came back from a day at the range with my USP .45 Tactical and loved every minute of it. It will continue to entertain me without fail for as long as I live and will then do the same for one of my sons long after I'm gone. You've already decided they are too rich for your taste and not demonstrably superior to other guns to justify the cost. So be it. enjoy shooting what you have and we'll do the same.

[substratus]

Despite some troubles in the beginning, this P2000 is now my favourite carry.
What ones? What troubles?

[Shakey]

I don't own Bersas. When you say "high end weapon", what do you mean "high end"? What makes HK high end? (I guess that is my ultimate question)

I do own a Sig 229R DAK though.

The price seems to be your main point Stupid. What makes the HK out of your reach? There are more expensive rigs out there that may, or may not perform as well. Sigs aren't exactly cheap. Why did you buy a Sig? There are less expensive guns that will do the same job. What makes the Sig a better buy?

[sixfootbrit]

Stupid is a troll. Go to <choke> Glock Talk and see what I mean. Stupid is a pathological time waster apparently.

"Cool. I am going to ask the same question in HK forum. *hahaha"

[Stupid]

I got a nice deal, almost dirt cheap. Also it feels very good in my hand, perfect balance. I like the DAK trigger too.

The price seems to be your main point Stupid. What makes the HK out of your reach? There are more expensive rigs out there that may, or may not perform as well. Sigs aren't exactly cheap. Why did you buy a Sig? There are less expensive guns that will do the same job. What makes the Sig a better buy?

[Shakey]

Stupid is a troll. Go to <choke> Glock Talk and see what I mean. Stupid is a pathological time waster apparently.

"Cool. I am going to ask the same question in HK forum. *hahaha"

What a dweeb. The handle makes sense now. Think he even owns a gun?

[doghaus]

I don't own Bersas. When you say "high end weapon", what do you mean "high end"? What makes HK high end? (I guess that is my ultimate question)

I do own a Sig 229R DAK though.


Stupid,
speaking of "high end" and "quality": Have you ever tried to blow out a bullet that is lodged in the barrel of a Glock, with another bullet? Not that you would want to do that for fun, but it can very easily happen. There is a very big difference in the quality of the raw materials used in a HK as compared to other pistols (SIG perhaps excluded). You get what you pay for.

[Stupid]

Not true. The only way you know more is to hear from both sides. In this case, I would like to hear from both Glock and HK lovers. That is the only way you get quite objective opinions.

Stupid is a troll. Go to <choke> Glock Talk and see what I mean. Stupid is a pathological time waster apparently.

"Cool. I am going to ask the same question in HK forum. *hahaha"

[sixfootbrit]

Probably an airsoft kinda guy. A Highpoint at most...

[doghaus]

Not true. The only way you know more is to hear from both sides. In this case, I would like to hear from both Glock and HK lovers. That is the only way you get quite objective opinions.

I think what you really want to do (since apparently you don't have anything else to do) is rile up the Glock users and the HK users, get them on each other's throats and the sit back and enjoy the show. Oh well, to each his own....

[Scooter]

I've seen someone extract a lodged bullet in a Glock by firing another round, not on purpose. He happened to do it before anyone stopped him. Nothing spectacular happened.

The reason why Glock is cheaper than Hk is simple. Neither gun cost more to build. Glock has the advantage by using common parts among all the guns. In manufacturing, as quantities goes up, cost goes down. It doesn't cost HK any more money to make a plastic mag as does Glock. But why does HK mags cost $40 vs. $20 for a Glock, because they can charge you for it and people are willing to buy it.

[Stupid]

I don't have that much time, sir.

I think what you really want to do (since apparently you don't have anything else to do) is rile up the Glock users and the HK users, get them on each other's throats and the sit back and enjoy the show. Oh well, to each his own....

[pbauw]

$40 for a good magazine is a decent price in the gun world. Hell the only good mags for 1911's run $35 and up..... How Glock does it for $15 is amazing.. I guess they make a lot more so they can sell them for cheaper.....

I'm not trying to be an ass but you need to shop around before you make another purchase. What most people consider to be the premier 1911 magazine, the Wilson #47D eight rounder, can be had for around $22. I'm poor white trash so I have to price shop around for the best deal. :) Check out some of the following sites. I think amongst them you will find a lot of bargains:

www.thegunsource.com
www.ordnanceoutsellers.com
www.cdnninvestments.com
www.midwayusa.com

Glock mags are inexpensive because there's not much to them. A lot of plastic and a little bit of stamped stainless. They work though, for the most part. The G17s I've owned had some feeding issues with certain factory mags regardless of which ammo was used. I've never had a problem with HK mags and I personally don't think a USP45 mag is overpriced at $45.

[joehk]

You did hear from people who have Glocks, Sigs and HK's on this board. They will all serve their purpose well. But as Fooboy mentioned, HK's will regularly eat +p and +p+ ammo and state it in the manual. Compare them side by side and you'll see the difference in engineering quality, such as fully supported chambers, DA/SA or cocked/locked all on the same platform, locking inserts on the slide, recoil assemblies, second strike capability, chromed lined bores that don't flake off the finish. You're correct, Glock does use many like "stamped" components in all their products. They've take an design that works well for 9mm and ported it to other platforms, which makes parts cheaper.

You can almost buy 1 1/2 Glock's for the price of a HK, and you'll probably go through 2 Glocks before that HK needs to be replaced also.

[pbauw]

...chromed lined bores that don't flake off the finish.

USP's have chrome lined bores? I did not know that but in my opinion that's a definite plus for any combat weapon to have.

[Stupid]

I don't know how truthful this is. I heard somebody shot 200k rounds through his Glock, which I dismissed as not a proper statistical experiment.

One thing I would really like to do is to actually pool some money and do a full comparison test myself/independently - with some help though as I cannot shoot that many rounds nor do I have that much money.

Randomly purchase 3-5 stock guns, ammo, mags, just keep shooting them till they break. Nothing like those fancy mud test or drop test.

It's going to cost about $30-$40K if they break early.


You can almost buy 1 1/2 Glock's for the price of a HK, and you'll probably go through 2 Glocks before that HK needs to be replaced also.

[trenace]

I don't know how truthful this is. I heard somebody shot 200k rounds through his Glock, which I dismissed as not a proper statistical experiment.

One thing I would really like to do is to actually pool some money and do a full comparison test myself/independently - with some help though as I cannot shoot that many rounds nor do I have that much money.

Randomly purchase 3-5 stock guns, ammo, mags, just keep shooting them till they break. Nothing like those fancy mud test or drop test.

It's going to cost about $30-$40K if they break early.
That would be $30-$40K for what would also not be statistically valid.

Suppose one of one of the brands breaks early and badly.

Does this mean that that brand has a 1 in 5 rate of breaking early and badly? Wow, it's a clear loser if so.

Or, is it that that brand has a chance in 10 thousand of that, but was unlucky this time?

You just don't know. And if the test were repeated, bad luck might go in the reverse direction.

So, $30-$40K spent but quite possibly nothing that can be concluded from it. 3-5 guns just aren't a sufficient sample to come to broad-reaching conclusions, unless there's a drastic observed difference throughout the examples. However, it's already known that neither the Glocks nor the H&K's will perform terribly, therefore a drastic observed difference is unlikely.

[Q-ballHK40]

I'm not trying to be an ass but you need to shop around before you make another purchase. What most people consider to be the premier 1911 magazine, the Wilson #47D eight rounder, can be had for around $22. I'm poor white trash so I have to price shop around for the best deal. :) Check out some of the following sites. I think amongst them you will find a lot of bargains:

www.thegunsource.com
www.ordnanceoutsellers.com
www.cdnninvestments.com
www.midwayusa.com

Glock mags are inexpensive because there's not much to them. A lot of plastic and a little bit of stamped stainless. They work though, for the most part. The G17s I've owned had some feeding issues with certain factory mags regardless of which ammo was used. I've never had a problem with HK mags and I personally don't think a USP45 mag is overpriced at $45.

Of all the links you gave Only gunsource had Wilson's and they ran $33 for the 47's. I prefer the 47's(7rndr) over the D($26) model due to reliabity. Sorry, I was off by $5-8... My apologies. :)

[orfeo]

"The only stupid question is the one unasked"
Can't remember what famous guy said that, but it makes sense to me.

OK, lets not degenerate this forum by bashing and beating up on Stupid. Apparently, he just wants to know what's so great about HK. He sounds like he is unimpressed with all the hype, is doubtful that it is anything more than just hype, and wants to hear why we all would buy into and promote the hype.

Well Stupid, you've gotten alot of good input from some of the members here with regard to your questions. The only thing I would add is that HKs do seem to hold their value well. I doubt you'll ever see a USP Compact 45 in a pawn shop for $175.

If you are serious about considering buying one, you ought to rent one for a couple of hours and shoot the heck out of it. Then come back to us and tell us what YOU think of it based on your experience. I'm sure we would all enjoy hearing your feedback based on your actually firing one for a couple hundred rounds.

Good luck in your quest!

[bordercop]

Hmm, in terms reliability, I have both Beretta 92FS and Glock 19, they are flawless. I have yet to produce one single failure. In terms accuracy, all my guns are more accurate than me. :-(
Well, you've got 2 9mm's that you are apparently quite happy with. I guess the question I have, is are you sticking with 9mm, or are you looking to make a bigger hole? I know a couple of department armorers who swear by Glock in 9mm, but would rather not see another one in 40. Reason being, is when the departments have them in 9, they don't see them often. But when G22/23 is the issue, they see them a lot more often, and with problems that require replacement rather than repair.

But the one thing HK has given most of us in here, that no other thing has given, is the addiction.

[StrikePenguin]

To answer the original question: The "compelling reason" was that, when all was said and done, HK offered an improvement in every area that was important to me, over the competing polymer-framed European makes. Listed roughly in order of importance to me:

Reliability - Unfortunately you have to base this on hearsay and marketing most of the time, but I know several people who have HKs (some former .mil and at least one of them who's done some dirty work in dirty places ;) ), who have nothing but praise for HK in this department. The Glocks I've experience with didn't malfunction while firing, but the magazines were crap. After experiencing magazing loading problems with two used Glocks and one brand new one, I decided to switch brands. I mean really, I had enough of messing with them, having to underload by one until somebody showed me a trick of jamming the last round into the mag with the loader until I heard a "pop"... Yeah... No thanks. Not on a gun I just paid $450 for. Yes, their customer service is super-friendly about fixing that issue, but it shouldn't be an issue in the first place. That's some bull**** right there.

Functionality - I wanted the ability to safe the gun mechanically, and more control over the firing modes. Not just because I was no longer comfortable with the lack of safety/point & click on the Glock, and that I wanted to carry cocked & locked, but also because my girlfriend should be exposed to guns that can be safed when she starts learning to shoot, for learning's sake. The Glock's simplicity is kind of neat but it seems to have become an article of dogma now, rather than a design choice. I get the feeling their offerings aren't evolving much in response to user needs. SIGs are really sweet but there was no safety, which ruled out cocked & locked.

Comfort/Ergonomics - The HK feels better in my hands, AND stuffed into my waistband. After putting Mepros on my USPc I like the sight picture better too, although "pointability" for me is still slightly second to the Glock and a distant third to SIGs, which are pure Gun Sex to handle IMO. :D Unfortunately SIG's offerings didn't sit well with me, since their smallest non-PPK-style gun (The P239?) was as big as my Glock 30 but only held six or seven rounds of .40. My USPc in 9mm holds 13+1 and is smaller still.

Personal Aesthetics - Austrian Paperweight... Black Brick... Box with a handle... Glocks are bleah. HK is chunky but it looks much nicer IMO. SIG wins again in this department.

Fit, finish, solidity, and overall professionalism of manufacture - SIG & HK win here over Glock by a small amount. The Glock just doesn't feel serious to me. Does that even make sense?

End result of these improvements was my poor temp-office-working self having to work an extra couple of weeks to pay for the HK & night sights, on top of the $$ I got from selling my G30. Not too bad considering how much more satisfied I am.

[Fooboy]

You are wasting your time ... I posted a similar post and it was totally disregarded.

He's just trying to aggrivate the hive.

[pbauw]

Of all the links you gave Only gunsource had Wilson's and they ran $33 for the 47's. I prefer the 47's(7rndr) over the D($26) model due to reliabity. Sorry, I was off by $5-8... My apologies. :)

Oops! Get a C&R and you can get the Brownells discount. That brings the Wilson 47's down to $22. :)

[Stupid]

I fully understand what you are saying. What you described is an anomity, which statistically would not happen - that is the likelihood of that happens is next to null, assuming the quality of the guns are very uniform. If that happens, you cannot attribute it to be "unlucky". If one out of 5 randomly chosen samples failed, it presents a great significance.

I also agree the sample size is too small. It would be better with 50 or 100 guns statistically. I don't think even the government does that kind of tests when they qualify suppliers.



That would be $30-$40K for what would also not be statistically valid.

Suppose one of one of the brands breaks early and badly.

Does this mean that that brand has a 1 in 5 rate of breaking early and badly? Wow, it's a clear loser if so.

Or, is it that that brand has a chance in 10 thousand of that, but was unlucky this time?

You just don't know. And if the test were repeated, bad luck might go in the reverse direction.

So, $30-$40K spent but quite possibly nothing that can be concluded from it. 3-5 guns just aren't a sufficient sample to come to broad-reaching conclusions, unless there's a drastic observed difference throughout the examples. However, it's already known that neither the Glocks nor the H&K's will perform terribly, therefore a drastic observed difference is unlikely.

[Stupid]

My Sig 229 is in .40.

Well, you've got 2 9mm's that you are apparently quite happy with. I guess the question I have, is are you sticking with 9mm, or are you looking to make a bigger hole? I know a couple of department armorers who swear by Glock in 9mm, but would rather not see another one in 40. Reason being, is when the departments have them in 9, they don't see them often. But when G22/23 is the issue, they see them a lot more often, and with problems that require replacement rather than repair.

But the one thing HK has given most of us in here, that no other thing has given, is the addiction.

[Stupid]

Fooboy, I didn't disregard your post. I actually went through the link you posted. Blowing out a stuck bullet is quite interesting.

I am more into what you said about the +P. In Beretta manual, it is specificaly said +P is not recommended for extended shooting. HK is definitely better in this case. I haven't seen anything in my Glock manual - somebody said +P is fine too.





You are wasting your time ... I posted a similar post and it was totally disregarded.

He's just trying to aggrivate the hive.

[Stupid]

StrkePenguin, interestingly, I have the same problem too. I can never figure out how to load the last round in there, even with a loader - my fingers would break before I load the number 10.

How did you do that?

After experiencing magazing loading problems with two used Glocks and one brand new one, I decided to switch brands. I mean really, I had enough of messing with them, having to underload by one until somebody showed me a trick of jamming the last round into the mag with the loader until I heard a "pop"... Yeah... No thanks. Not on a gun I just paid $450 for. Yes, their customer service is super-friendly about fixing that issue, but it shouldn't be an issue in the first place. That's some bull**** right there.

[trenace]

I fully understand what you are saying. What you described is an anomity, which statistically would not happen - that is the likelihood of that happens is next to null, assuming the quality of the guns are very uniform. If that happens, you cannot attribute it to be "unlucky". If one out of 5 randomly chosen samples failed, it presents a great significance.
No. You are factually incorrect. Please consult someone besides myself that knows statistics or avail yourself of works available on the subject. That simply is not so.

[StrikePenguin]

StrikePenguin, interestingly, I have the same problem too. I can never figure out how to load the last round in there, even with a loader - my fingers would break before I load the number 10.

How did you do that?Fill the mag up to the highest # you can - 9 in the case of my G30 mags. Put the mag on a hard flat surface like a countertop. Grip it with one hand, and using the other hand, insert the loader, then push down with as much force as you can manage on the loader. The rounds will buckle down in there and at some point you'll hear a "pop" or a "clunk" which I believe is the sound of the rounds jamming the follower into a different position. Maintaining pressure on the loader, start the 10th round in onto the crushed stack of 9. Remove loader and push #10 all the way in (it may take a bit of thumb pressure). At this point, if you like, you can squeeze the completed stack a bit with the loader to work it a little bit. Unload to empty, and repeat the process several times until it gets easier. Eventually you get to the point where you can thumb-load the full capacity like normal. Once or twice this process might cause the sides of the mag to bulge in such a way that it can't be inserted into the gun (!!!); if that happens, just unload and try again.

My father's G19 was an old 2nd gen Massachusetts police trade-in, and he also bought a used G20something (? mid-sized .40 S&W). Both of them had this problem. He contacted Glock Customer Service and had the mags replaced. I ran into the same issue with my G30 which I bought last summer and sold recently. A friend of mine who's brother is a Glockophile knew the loader-crush trick, which worked, but I stayed mad about it, even though I knew a workaround. It was just such a bull**** error in the weapon, especially with something as vital as the feed system... Ridiculous really.

I'm happy to report absolutely zero issues with my USPc's mags.

[LebbenB]

What makes an HK or Sig more expensive? Part of it truly is the amount of engineering and over-building that go into each pistol, as well as the quality of materials used. I'm an Army 11B4V. 11B's tend to break things. In my career, I've broken everything from M1911A1's to Humvees. To say that I'm hard on equipment is a gross understatement. So I buy guns and gear with an eye toward durability. I have only 2 guns I haven't been able to break (yet) - a Sig 229 and an HK USP45F.

Another factor in the relative expense of HK/Sig vice other makes is not how much it costs to make them, but rather how much it costs to pay the employees to make them. The German government and the country's trade unions ensure that workers get top dollar (Euro?) for the work they do. The German government also taxes the hell out of companies and industries. These costs are passed onto the consumer and results in a higher per copy price for an HK/Sig than an equivalent pistol from another non-German arms maker. The higher price is spun by the companies PR departments - "Churr-mann engineering is ze best...To haff ze best, you must pay, Kamerade."

Mike

[Exact69]

Like they say, "When lives are at stake leave NOTHING to chance!" and "HK, NO compromise!" I've owned two GLOCKS they suck, both jammed repeatedly and people said Glocks don't jam. Well I beg to differ a sboth of mine did and The San Diego Police dept did some in depth research and magnifications of barrels and the Glocks have micro fissures in them after something like 2000 rounds. It's your life live it any way you want but someone comes into my comfort zone wishing ill will upon me and mine. My HKs work on time EVERY TIME. Never jammed. Never will.

[BlueMountain]

I've owned Sig, Glocks, and HKs. I recently sold my Glocks so now I have two HKs and one Sig- all great, great guns. I have heard of more quality issues with Sigs than HKs but would trust my life to either. Glocks are nice but I don't dig the trigger at all. I like it at the Range but not when I'm carrying- that's a personal thing though. I find HKs are lighter than Sigs, easier to carry and I shoot them as accurately, if not a bit better most of the time.

I did pay more for my USP 45C and my SK than the Glock and slightly more than the Sig. I think HKs have an edge on the other two so I paid more happily. Just in case this reference helps, I love 1911s but not just any 1911. I'd have to drop $2K minimum to get one I liked- more like $2,500 for a Nighthawk or Ed Brown or Yost. And then, it would be a beautiful Range gun and still may not be more reliable as my HK. It woudl be more accurate, I think but we are talking fraction of an inch here.

HK just rule Sig and Glocks. In general, the barrels don't rust as much, the slide rails don't chip as much, the rounds don't stovepipe as much, and they are just cooler (in case that matters).:44:

[Cobra64]

I am thinking about getting a P2000 but cannot seem to talk myself into spending the money.Then you're better off with a Glock. Besides, you can really customize a Glock and buy a whole bunch of spare parts very inexpensively.

I just bought a P2000 V3 in 9mm a few months ago to replace my G19 because I like the ergonomics and the V3 set-up.

We all have choices... my HKs and Sigs offer me a variety that a Glock doesn't. IMO.

P2000
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Heckler%20Koch/HK2000-right.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Heckler%20Koch/HK2000-left.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Heckler%20Koch/P2000Diassembled.jpg

Sig P229
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/P229-right-full-hi.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/p229-left-full-hi.jpg

Sig P239
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/p239-left-full-hi.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/p239-right-full-hi.jpg

[joehk]

If you already have one of each competitor, or want one, then why rationalise getting an HK?

I agree. Get out there and provide a Range Report! May you'll come to the conclusion that HK's are no better.

Run Forest, run!

[Plate]

Quality, reliability, reputation are some of the factors that make HK what they are but in the end everyone will have differing reasons for purchasing an HK. I have over 10 years in the US Army, I started as Infantry, later reclassed to MP, and have recently been reclassed to a pencil pusher in Finance. In all this time I have shot countless weapons and there were many I liked, but none were must haves. On my last tour (Afghanistan) I got the opportunity to get the German Marksmanship Badge(Schutzenschnur). On this range we shot weapons from many countries including the German P8, G36, and machine gun that's name slips my mind, the Bulgarian AK47 and Makarov, and we also shot the French Rifle(can't recall the name either but I refer to it as the Stormtrooper gun). Of all the weapons I fired that day and throughout my career the G36 and P8 stood out as clear winners in accuracy, reliability, and ease of use, those three factors are very important not just in a Combat Zone but day to day situations a person may find themselves in. I am now on another deployment but between this tour and the last one I finally purchased a USP. I have also since purchased a P2000sk and have a USP Tactical that is paid for and waiting at my local FFL for pickup.

[Lone_Ranger]

Fill the mag up to the highest # you can - 9 in the case of my G30 mags. Put the mag on a hard flat surface like a countertop. Grip it with one hand, and using the other hand, insert the loader, then push down with as much force as you can manage on the loader. The rounds will buckle down in there and at some point you'll hear a "pop" or a "clunk" which I believe is the sound of the rounds jamming the follower into a different position. Maintaining pressure on the loader, start the 10th round in onto the crushed stack of 9. Remove loader and push #10 all the way in (it may take a bit of thumb pressure). At this point, if you like, you can squeeze the completed stack a bit with the loader to work it a little bit. Unload to empty, and repeat the process several times until it gets easier. Eventually you get to the point where you can thumb-load the full capacity like normal. Once or twice this process might cause the sides of the mag to bulge in such a way that it can't be inserted into the gun (!!!); if that happens, just unload and try again.




I've found that if you load the magazine the way you normally do, and with the last round seated, bounce the magazine (GENTLY) against the floorplate while pushing down and back, on the round the way you normally do. No need to force it. It works with my HK's. I discovered the technique with an "issued" Glock.

PS- Glock magazines are supposed to buldge. I'm not sure if it was a deisgn issue or not, but when the magazine is empty it drops free. If it is more than half loaded it drops out half-way. Making a "tactical re-load" easy.

[Cobra64]

I only know HK is much more expensive.So are BMWs and Mercedes Benzs.

Methinks you're here to stir the pot. IMO

[Tecumseh]

HK is simply the best FOR ME. I wanted a high quality handgun that was lightweight and easy to carry. I got myself a P2000.

[dcondiff]

dont get an HK

people who are too lazy to do the research themselves dont deserve to own HKs

therefore, dont buy one

[KURT]

What makes HK more expensive? When you comparing them with others;
1. Look at the slide shapes, all the internal and external cuttings, and then imagine which one needs more CNC operations and time,
2.Look at the remaining CNC marks and metal surface finish ( not surface treatment or after finish which hides machineing faults ) remnents of machineing,
3.Look at the number of parts, their shapes, methods of production ( MIM, Stamped, Solid, etc ),
4.Look at the quality of springs,
5.If it is a polymer framed pistol, compare the seeming areas of the both halves to see the remnents of molding,and see which frame gives you the appearance as if it was produced from an alloy untill you approach it closer,
6.Look at the amount of steel inserts at the stressfull areas,
7.Look at the magazines, are they just tubuler shaped, strait ones or have additional rails in them carrying the followers' inserts,
8.If they have compact counterparts, examine to see whether they are just choped down versions from the grip base and the muzzle and, or they are completely redesigned and engineered ones, even the magazines of full size counterparts can not be inserted the compact ones,
9.Look at the triggers, see despite beeing a plastic pistols which one gives you the least mushy trigger feel,
And then sum all of them with www.youtube.com / waffenschmiede,then maybe you can understand just a few reasons of the price tag of HKs.
Best.

[Tecumseh]

,

8.If they have compact counterparts, examine to see whether they are just choped down versions from the grip base and the muzzle and, or they are completely redesigned and engineered ones, even the magazines of full size counterparts can not be inserted the compact ones,



I see the magazines not being interchangeable as a disadvantage. But other than that I think that you are right.

[Cobra64]

The price seems to be your main point Stupid. What makes the HK out of your reach? There are more expensive rigs out there that may, or may not perform as well. Sigs aren't exactly cheap. Why did you buy a Sig? There are less expensive guns that will do the same job. What makes the Sig a better buy?

Methinks poster Stupid is a troll. He's been here before and over at SigForum stirring up a lot of BS. He needs a girlfriend or something.

IMO

[Cobra64]

What a dweeb. The handle makes sense now. Think he even owns a gun?Maybe one of these:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/DinkGun.jpg

[Cobra64]

Not true. The only way you know more is to hear from both sides. In this case, I would like to hear from both Glock and HK lovers. That is the only way you get quite objective opinions.

Hey Stupid, have you tried one of these?

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/surreal-pistol-2.jpg

[Cobra64]

I've found that if you load the magazine the way you normally do, and with the last round seated, bounce the magazine (GENTLY) against the floorplate while pushing down and back, on the round the way you normally do. No need to force it. It works with my HK's. I discovered the technique with an "issued" Glock.

PS- Glock magazines are supposed to buldge. I'm not sure if it was a deisgn issue or not, but when the magazine is empty it drops free. If it is more than half loaded it drops out half-way. Making a "tactical re-load" easy.

Why don't you just buy an HKS Magazine Loader for $10.00 from MidwayUSA?

[wtpracing327]

You get what you pay for. Plain and simple.