PSG1 or MSG90 clones?

[ausrick]

I'm a newb, I hope this isn't too much of a newb question, but does anyone know any place that makes a good new PSG1 or MSG90 clone at a good price that functions close to identical to a real HK of the same type and sports the same features (With leeway to legality of course. I'm not looking for any class 3 headaches currently)?

[baja]

THERE IS A MSG90 CLONE FOR SALE UNDER HK WEAPONS FOR SALE AROUND 5,000 I THINK

[11C ABN]

You are asking a big question, that has many different answers?
You should first investigate the - Search Forum - after you have done that you will most likely come away with more questions?

Weapons platform prerequisites
Parts procurement
Vendors list
Barrel profile
Sight requirements
H&K builders

Please note that you are looking at a very long lead time.
This is a costly endeavor, I'm not trying to talk you out of it just wanting you to understand that their are many different approaches to this type build.

I will be more then happy to explain one of the builds that I am having done and of the one that myself and Paul123 will be doing and filming for the board later this year.

[AGG]

Welcome to the site! Definitely research both the PSG1 and MSG90. The former will probably be 2x in price and, if properly built, the latter could perform as well, or better, than the former.

Have you looked into an SR9, SR9T or SR9TC?

[The_Great_308]

What everyone has said so far is good advice. It is important to know enough about both rifles so that you know how close to the original you would want yours to be. There are some features on the MSG90/PSG1 like the forward assist which although it is very convenient it is not necessary.

However some people want an exact clone and it is possible to do but very expensive. There is a lot of really good information on this site once you get the hang of the search function.

I am also having an MSG90 clone built. However it is not an exact clone it is more of a hybrid of PSG1, MSG90 and SG1 features. I will put a link to a thread about my build on militaryfirearm.com below.

http://www.militaryfirearm.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=2618

[paul123]

hope you have a big wallet :) tracking down the parts is the hard/fun part although im not sure which one comes first :)

it all really boils down to what exactly you want to do. i was going to do a hybrid build until i found a factory Hensoldt ZF6x42PSG1 scope then i decided to go the completely factory route. hopefully by the time im done with the builds you wont be able to tell the difference from the real thing, at least without some closer inspection.

so far this build has costed me upwards of 3500$ and i dont even have the factory buttstock yet :( but that price also includes the tools and etc to build the rifle myself. i am a very impatient person when it comes to my weapons and could not stand having my gun at a builder for a year +

finding someone to build the rifle with helps ALOT!!! on the cost. me and
11CABN are splitting alot of the consumables cost like welder rental and etc..

good luck !!! PM me if you have any questions

[ausrick]

I guess I'm maybe a bit, or a lot, confused about the whole process. I mean, When I looked into mp5 clones, I found a large number of websites that were actual manufacturers of said clone, and I could, for instance practically drop an mp5 clone into an e-shopping cart and click "Buy". Everything with the PSG1 and MSG90 seems to take a totally different approach. It seems much more like you need to pick up an SR9 (which I needn't mention there aren't any new ones here since 1989) and start finding pieces parts and modifying it. Much more like a project or an endeavor. It seems More like making a Frankenkoch or a Hecklerenstein than a retail-esque clone per se. So what makes the difference in the approach between the two types of firearm clones?

[paul123]

i would say the main difference is either of these two

how much do i want to spend v.s how factory correct do i want the rifle

or

do i want a factory correct piece v.s do i want to make a custom H&K style precision rifle made to fit my exact tastes.

[AviatorDave]

I guess I'm maybe a bit, or a lot, confused about the whole process. I mean, When I looked into mp5 clones, I found a large number of websites that were actual manufacturers of said clone, and I could, for instance practically drop an mp5 clone into an e-shopping cart and click "Buy". Everything with the PSG1 and MSG90 seems to take a totally different approach. It seems much more like you need to pick up an SR9 (which I needn't mention there aren't any new ones here since 1989) and start finding pieces parts and modifying it. Much more like a project or an endeavor. It seems More like making a Frankenkoch or a Hecklerenstein than a retail-esque clone per se. So what makes the difference in the approach between the two types of firearm clones?

For one thing, the modifications to make a 94 or a clone into an MP5 are much easier than those to make a PSG1 or MSG90 clone. AND... the parts or parts kit for the MP5 are MUCH easier to find. Forgetting about the parts you can find and put on yourself like the PSG1 stock, PSG1 trigger pack, etc - here is what's involved-

Modifications to make a 94 or clone into an MP5:
1. Flapper Mag Release
2. Registered sear into trigger pack
3. Remark receiver
4. Remove and Replace barrel
5. Refinish

The parts are much easier to find, for one thing, many of the 94 parts are also used on the MP5, like the front handguard, stock, etc. You will spend lots of time and/or money finding parts like the trunnion extension, front handguard, correct bipod or tripod, PSG1 trigger pack, PSG1 or MSG90 stock, MSG90 scope mount, PSG1 scope mount tabs, silent bolt closer device, serrated bolt carrier, receiver rails, etc. All you need in the way of parts above the 94 donor for an MP5 is a barrel, a bolt carrier, a trigger pack, and an A3 stock if you want one.

To make a 91 into a PSG1 or MSG90:
1. Flapper Mag Release
2. Registered sear (in the case of the MSG90 only)
3. Remark Receiver
4. Remove and Replace barrel (which will most likely be a custom barrel)
5. Refinish (of course, after all the welding is done)
6. Install trunnion extension
7. Weld frame rail stiffeners into receiver grooves
8. Weld on scope mount tabs (or the MSG90 claw mount parts)
9. modifications to cocking tube assembly to fit different forearm (I think)
10. Weld on silent bolt closure device

The big difference besides all the parts that must be changed is that the only welding required to make an MP5 is that the hole for the flapper mag must be welded shut and ground flat. For the MSG90/PSG1, steps 6-10 all involve TIG welding.

[ausrick]

Ok, so what you are basically saying is that since the mp5 is popular enough, simpler enough, cheaper enough, a lot more people and places take on making replicas of them for profit, thus the easier it is to procure a clone. As for the PSG1 or MSG 90 clones, because they are more rare, more obscure, more complicated, more expensive, its much more of an individual ordeal to try and get a faximile of one. Also add that because of this, no body is making cookie-cutter reproduction peices for sale in the same specs? For instance, I hear that there are a number of places that make knock-off copies of stocks for the MP5, but it sounds like, for instance, that is not so for the MSG90?

Lets see, I guess I'll go down the path of the MSG90. Its in my opinion just as beautiful of a weapon as the PSG1, seems to be able to be fabricated at less cost, and can be just as accurate. Do I have that right? and I need to probably prioritize what I actually want out of it. Do I want it to be just like the factory version or, where can I compromise? (Even though HK doesn't ;) )

So let me think about what I actually want in a rifle. I'm totally new to the idea of building a firearm. I can field strip all of the guns I own, but that is the most technical I have ever gotten with them. I can't weld to save my life, so that probably handicaps me a lot in this endeavor, right? I would want similar accuracy and firing performance so I would assume having an accurate reproduction of the barrel, and having it fire the same round, and having the same bolt and firing chamber and all would be important. The forward assist sounds neat, but you all mentioned that would be a hard and or expensive addition right? I would really prefer the 20 round magazine. I live in Indiana. Am I going to run into any legal issues with that? It would also be nice to have the same rugged durability that HK products are known for. And of course look would be important :) Though I'm not going for the level where you put it infront of experts and try to fool them or anything... but maybe fool the guy next to me at the range. :D Also the weight and feel of it. I would definitely want it to be rather indistinguishable to my hands. Of course, I want to keep price in consideration. My pockets don't really go very deep. :) I've got time, as in I'm not on a deadline or in a rush, but I don't have time, in that I work waaayyyy too much. :mad: So what am I missing? How far off am I? and what direction can you guys point me in? You've all been invaluable with your help. Thanks.

[paul123]

if your not going to build it yourself i would have one of the Builders that are frequently talked about do it

RDTS.com
investmentgradefirearms.com

you could try Murray urbach but its been 6 months for me and he hasn't returned a single fax or call, don't get me wrong i have the parts i need i just want to see if i can contact the guy.

terry dyer is another good one

even the board member Ghilliebear2000 makes some super fantastic looking weapons

so there are options out there.

you shouldent run into any problems in Indiana as far as laws go,

the MSG90 is a little cheaper to build

Black-market-parts.com makes a good repo. of the butt stock for a good price they also make the trunnion you'll want.
and if you hurry over to top-notchparts.com they have the hard to find MSG90 barrel in stock right now

board member JFK makes the cocking tube for an MSG90 for a great price,

bill springfield or Denny Williams can do an awesome trigger job for you at half the cost of a factory MSG90 pack.

JFK also makes weaver style tabs that weld onto the receiver to mount a scope of choice.

if you go the budget route IE. NO forward assist,receiver rails, factory trigger pack or factory butt stock you should be able to get the rifle done for under 3000 and it should look and shoot very well.

i think the hardest part for you will be finding the PSG-1/ MSG90 forearm

[AviatorDave]

Without a tig welder, and at the very least a press, you won't be doing any "building" of the rifle. And especially if you're constrained by cash, I'd look into a PTR rifle. Go to PTR91.com and look at some of their products. They'll be brand new, are possibly one of the best 91 copies on the market, and you can then add most of the functional MSG90 parts yourself with no gunsmithing required. Look for a PSG1 trigger pack, and an MSG90 or PSG1 stock. They'll go right on, and you'll have a very nice and very accurate rifle. You can also find them on gunbroker, gunsamerica, etc.

[darthvictor]

I second the PTR91.com route. They offer a rifle they call the MSG91. Might be what you're looking for or at the very least, a good place to start modifying from.

[SturmgewehrXXX]

terry dyer is another good one


Word at last KCR was Terry was not taking any more work.

[lorenolson888]

Look at the PTR91.com site...

they have a MSG 90 like gun...

LO

[rorschach]

I love my PTR's, but I wouldnt even associate the PTR perimeter rifle with an MSG90 in the same sentence.

Oh wait....:D

[lorenolson888]

I guess it does not have the side rails huh...

Still cool though!

[Seabee69]

Are PTR's good rifles? I've never had the chance to look at one up close. Does their MSG91 have a match grade barrel? Thanks.

[BIGDUKE60]

<<<SPEND THE MONEY GET THE REAL THING!!

after all a copy is always that..NOT THE REAL THING!!

[ausrick]

Well, thanks thats all been a lot of help... and could I have a little more elaboration on PTR in comparison to a real MSG90? There seems to be some differing views among you folks about that. I have the same question as Seabea69. And BigDuke60. I'm a civy, so I was under the impression that my options for obtaining an actual PSG1 or MSG90 were sorely limited in the states due to import laws, etc. Is this somehow not true? And what can you all tell me about side rails?

[AviatorDave]

Well, thanks thats all been a lot of help... and could I have a little more elaboration on PTR in comparison to a real MSG90? There seems to be some differing views among you folks about that. I have the same question as Seabea69. And BigDuke60. I'm a civy, so I was under the impression that my options for obtaining an actual PSG1 or MSG90 were sorely limited in the states due to import laws, etc. Is this somehow not true? And what can you all tell me about side rails?

PSG1s are semi-auto only, but are still covered by the foreign import ban. So there's no problem buying one, no taxes or nfa registration, but they're still very expensive just because they're relatively rare, and their retail price is something like $12,000, $2500 of it in the scope.

But actual MSG90s are machine guns - they have the through-hole for a swing-down pushpin lower. The best you can do there is to get one converted from an HK91 receiver.

[paul123]

you can buy a PSG-1 in the US not new of course they havent been imported for civi's in a while MSG90 is classified as a machinegun due to its front pushpin on the receiver, it can accept unmoddified full auto lowers.

the difference in the PTR version is pretty drastic although they look somewhat simmiler

PTR has a 18" barrel where the H&K has i beleive a 24" one (i did a cad drawing of one and posted it recently)

H&K PSG-1/MSG90 are a free floating handguard system the hand guard attaches to the front of the cocking tube with a special swivel lock only found on PSG/MSG cocking tubes and is supported by an extended trunnion that comes out past the receiver.

PTR is just like any other 91 it uses a pin in front to hold the hand guard on and the triple frame (sights) go's around the barrel H&K does not. also uses a completely different handguard as stated above

the PTR is just a normal 91 receiver with a sight rail welded on top

H&K has special tabs welded on for a specific scope mount, has a forward assist device weled onto the right side of the receiver and has rails that are welded onto the sides of the receiver channels to strengthen the gun these rails are also pinned to the trunnion in the front and then welded over to further strenghten

H&K PSG/MSG uses a completely different style bolt head with a different extractor, bolt carrier also has notches cut in it for the forward assist to operate on

PTR uses a standard 91 bolt and carrier

H&K has a special trigger with a lightend pull and an adjustable shoe

PTR uses the same heavy old 91 trigger pull and mechanisam

a true H&K PSG/MSG buttstock has a Heavy buffer or a 2 stage buffer to reduce the recoil impulse of the rifle

PTR uses a standard G3 buffer and a MAGPUL stock (those stocks are nice but need a different buffer)

i think thats all the differences between the 2 if i missed one someone please chime in.

the PTR is a good rifle but if you want an MSG90 the only option you have is to build one, a PSG-1 can be had but last one i saw went for 16000

[Lon Moer]

And what can you all tell me about side rails?
The side rails are "filler" pieces that are welded on to the receiver in the sliding stock channel, adding strength and reinforcement to the receiver. They are available from a couple of vendors.

I think some here are being a little too critical of the PTR MSG. PTR has a good reputation and I'm sure their rig is a quality piece and a close "look a like". Sure it would be nice if Black Market Parts would make some more of their MSG handguards, but until they do (if they do) the PTR handguard, or a KAC RAS, are really the only options.

[Tactical Shooter]

I'm interloping - interesting discussions. I'm going to write another one of those "slam the bad businessmen of HK" posts.
Isn't the broad issue a question of value - is it "worth" it to buy into the HK original world or go with a clone. Most of us here would say yes it is worth the cost. However, HK left this market years ago and has shown no signs of coming back. That departure (a bad business decision) left the door open for clones to fill the void. How much money would HK make if it sold a factory original UMP semi auto? HDS is getting $3500 for those things. How many firearm makers do you know selling $3500 NFA guns with waiting lists?
Some of those clones are excellent and they are only going to get better. They will get better because the demand is there and HK has abandoned the field. The fact is that most people can't find HK originals, they are too expensive for most consumers and you have to be a laywer to understand the rules if you want to change out a part as simple as a scope ring.
Having ranted on this issue (again), I'm happy to say I love HK and own many but clones that work just as well for half the cost are starting to appeal to me.

[MARKW1]

if your not going to build it yourself i would have one of the Builders that are frequently talked about do it

RDTS.com
investmentgradefirearms.com

you could try Murray urbach but its been 6 months for me and he hasn't returned a single fax or call, don't get me wrong i have the parts i need i just want to see if i can contact the guy.

terry dyer is another good one

even the board member Ghilliebear2000 makes some super fantastic looking weapons

so there are options out there.

you shouldent run into any problems in Indiana as far as laws go,

the MSG90 is a little cheaper to build

Black-market-parts.com makes a good repo. of the butt stock for a good price they also make the trunnion you'll want.
and if you hurry over to top-notchparts.com they have the hard to find MSG90 barrel in stock right now

board member JFK makes the cocking tube for an MSG90 for a great price,

bill springfield or Denny Williams can do an awesome trigger job for you at half the cost of a factory MSG90 pack.

JFK also makes weaver style tabs that weld onto the receiver to mount a scope of choice.

if you go the budget route IE. NO forward assist,receiver rails, factory trigger pack or factory butt stock you should be able to get the rifle done for under 3000 and it should look and shoot very well.

i think the hardest part for you will be finding the PSG-1/ MSG90 forearm.


The labor for a nice MSG90 Cloan from a reputable HK builder will cost you around $2,000.00 alone . I have a MSG90 Clone on the board right now built by IGF.
I have it listed for $4600.00 without the scope set up, Thats what I have in it. It has all the bells and whistles less the forward assist and Scope Tabs.

[csbrit007]

Anyone here know the board member offering the profile dimensions of the Black Market Parts MSG90 barrel? I would like to see if he has a Hi Res version available.

[jfk]

http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?p=469046#post469046

I believe the credit goes to Nodder (Paul123) and Robert (11ACBN) for the dimensions.

[csbrit007]

Thanks Jimmy!