Making H&K Briefcase Question

[wchiang]

So I took a look at the NFA Handbook, and from what I can tell, it doesn't really seem to fall under NFA. Surely there must be a legal reason somewhere to explain why people aren't trying to make any. I'm interesting in throwing the UMP in there if not for just another carrying case, then funny stares at the range.

However, I seem to recall that there was a specific reason why you can't make them. Any thoughts?

[edman99]

I know of no legal reason, at least on a federal level, that you can't make them. However, if one uses one by placing a firearm inside it for the purpose of shooting it, the briefcase would need AOW registration prior to doing so.

[wchiang]

Thanks! I did a bit more research and called the ATF. Falls under AOW with a $200 manufacture tax on Form 1.

[edman99]

Sounds like a neat project. I've always thought it shouldn't be too difficult.
Keep us posted on your progress.

[raymond-]

fine point: the AOW is never on the enclosure - always on the firearm. thus,
the Form 1 would be on the MP5K variant that is intended to be used within
the operational briefcase.

IF, however, you do not own or have in your possession such a firearm, you
are free to manufacture this enclosure with impunity. no restrictions.

[wchiang]

fine point: the AOW is never on the enclosure - always on the firearm. thus,
the Form 1 would be on the MP5K variant that is intended to be used within
the operational briefcase.

IF, however, you do not own or have in your possession such a firearm, you
are free to manufacture this enclosure with impunity. no restrictions.

I already have a Form 1 on it for the SBR. Would I have to file another Form 1 for AOW on the same firearm?

[AviatorDave]

I already have a Form 1 on it for the SBR. Would I have to file another Form 1 for AOW on the same firearm?

That was my question as well. An SP89 must be registered as an AOW to be carried in the op briefcase. But if you have an MP5K, does the sear override the need for AOW status? It would seem odd to have both a form 4 and AOW status on the same gun, but I can see how it might be like a 2-stamp gun in the case of an MP5SD, or a 3 stamp if you also want it SBRd to shoot without the sear.

[Trip]

this question has gone round and round... i still do not have an answer.. i was told on this board, that if you sbr a gun, then it trumps the aow status... (ex: sp89, remove stock but leave K grip on is ok??)

if that is the case, then why not the briefcase..... i am not comfortable w/ this advice though... i do not see how, you can have two separate nfa items with only one stamp.... Save for a mg, which makes sense.. It can be in any configuration with the sear pack installed.

[edman99]

fine point: the AOW is never on the enclosure - always on the firearm. thus,
the Form 1 would be on the MP5K variant that is intended to be used within
the operational briefcase.

Yes raymond thanks for your correction.

[raymond-]

I already have a Form 1 on it for the SBR. Would I have to file another Form 1 for AOW on the same firearm?

i keep waiting for someone to post an opinion letter from Tech Branch but
have not seen one the past 10 years. it's quite a head scratcher no matter
how you look at it: 1) it's a two stamper, or 2) SBR trumps AOW.

[straightgrain]

I would direct your question to the BATF. Specifically Rick Vasquez (sp?), head of the Firearms Technology Branch. Rick is a good guy and will shoot straight with you.

[wchiang]

I would direct your question to the BATF. Specifically Rick Vasquez (sp?), head of the Firearms Technology Branch. Rick is a good guy and will shoot straight with you.

Thanks! Letter sent! I will update when a response has been received!

[SuicideHz]

this question has gone round and round... i still do not have an answer.. i was told on this board, that if you sbr a gun, then it trumps the aow status... (ex: sp89, remove stock but leave K grip on is ok??)

if that is the case, then why not the briefcase..... i am not comfortable w/ this advice though... i do not see how, you can have two separate nfa items with only one stamp.... Save for a mg, which makes sense.. It can be in any configuration with the sear pack installed.

It's because you can have a foregrip on a rifle but not a pistol. no stock equals pistol, stock equals rifle. The SBR status doesn't trump anything- it changes the firearm to a rifle which can legally have the grip.

Do AOW stipulations mention semi-auto firearms? That would help the situation.

The laws that govern an SBR apply to semi-automatic rifles only. That's why a machine gun can have any length barrel, any type of stock etc. They aren't semi auto rifles and the SBR laws don't apply.

Now if AOW stipulates that "a firearm disguised for firing..." or something similar, then ANY firearm including a machinegun would have to be registered.

I thought most AOWs had a $5 tax? Or is that a $5 transfer and the $200 is manufacture?

[SuicideHz]

i keep waiting for someone to post an opinion letter from Tech Branch but
have not seen one the past 10 years. it's quite a head scratcher no matter
how you look at it: 1) it's a two stamper, or 2) SBR trumps AOW.

You don't need a tech letter.

If you have the situation where you have an SP89 PISTOL. You want to put a forward grip on it? Then it has to be registered as an AOW because a pistol with a forward grip is an AOW.

If you have an SBR which is a rifle, you can put any grip on the front you want- it's a rifle, not a pistol. Again, SBR doesn't "trump" any other designation. Having an SBR though means it's NOT a PISTOL and wouldn't ever fall under any categories that pistols do.

[wchiang]

I thought most AOWs had a $5 tax? Or is that a $5 transfer and the $200 is manufacture?

The latter:
$200 Manufacture: Form 1
$5 Transfer: Form 4

[Trip]

still clear as mud ;)

[AviatorDave]

The latter:
$200 Manufacture: Form 1
$5 Transfer: Form 4

Yep. Got the forms right here. And I HATE the fact that it costs another $200 just to be able to shoot my MP5 WITHOUT the sear. Ridiculous.

[raymond-]

You don't need a tech letter.

If you have the situation where you have an SP89 PISTOL. You want to put a forward grip on it? Then it has to be registered as an AOW because a pistol with a forward grip is an AOW.

If you have an SBR which is a rifle, you can put any grip on the front you want- it's a rifle, not a pistol. Again, SBR doesn't "trump" any other designation. Having an SBR though means it's NOT a PISTOL and wouldn't ever fall under any categories that pistols do.

uhh.....that logic isn't making sense....

an SP-89 Form 1ed as an SBR allows the rifle stock to be removed, the K-grip
installed/remain, yet allows it to be legal. this means that the SBR status
does trump the AOW.

at issue here is whether the SBR configuration allows the reman'd pistol's [sic]
shoulder stock to be removed and placed within the enclosure of the
operational briefcase.


<.....> Now if AOW stipulates that "a firearm disguised for firing..." or something similar, then ANY firearm including a machinegun would have to be registered. <....>

if you read the CFR, you'll see that this is how the legal definition of AOW is written....yet the
reality is that machine guns are not being required to be reclassed as AOWs.

[xtphp1]

In the case of the HK operational briefcase, it will not work with the stock on the gun. So putting a SP89 in the case will make it an AOW. Putting a "K" grip on the gun outside the case is an AOW. Putting a AOW SP89 (gun with "K" grip) in the case wouldn't change anything because it's still an AOW. Putting a stock on the gun with or without a "K" grip will give you an unregistered SBR. If you want the stock on the SP89 you will have to register it as a SBR. If you want to cover all the bases, send in another form for $5 to get it AOWed and your good. Or get a sear and trump it all. Then you don't have to do anything.

[SuicideHz]

uhh.....that logic isn't making sense....

an SP-89 Form 1ed as an SBR allows the rifle stock to be removed, the K-grip
installed/remain, yet allows it to be legal. this means that the SBR status
does trump the AOW.

at issue here is whether the SBR configuration allows the reman'd pistol's [sic]
shoulder stock to be removed and placed within the enclosure of the
operational briefcase.



if you read the CFR, you'll see that this is how the legal definition of AOW is written....yet the
reality is that machine guns are not being required to be reclassed as AOWs.

I'm just guessing that an SBR has to have a stock.

Nice house.

[rext]

This is the same scenario as the North American Arms wallets.When you have the little .22 pistol in the wallet they USED to make and it is fired from the wallet and carried in the wallet,the wallet itself must be registered as a AOW.I had one that I gave to a friend and it came with a ATF letter and AA address on it stating this very fact.If it is used and even owned in conjunction with the gun,it in itself is a AOW.I know its stupid.But my friend I gave it to is going to register the wallet as a AOW for the novelty.Really.This is why they dont offer them anymore.I think the belt buckle is the same way as well,but not positive on that one.

[SuicideHz]

This is the same scenario as the North American Arms wallets.When you have the little .22 pistol in the wallet they USED to make and it is fired from the wallet and carried in the wallet,the wallet itself must be registered as a AOW.I had one that I gave to a friend and it came with a ATF letter and AA address on it stating this very fact.If it is used and even owned in conjunction with the gun,it in itself is a AOW.I know its stupid.But my friend I gave it to is going to register the wallet as a AOW for the novelty.Really.This is why they dont offer them anymore.I think the belt buckle is the same way as well,but not positive on that one.

The wallet is an AOW only when it has a trigger hole in it.

[rext]

http://www.naaminis.com/faqgeneral.html


Looks like I am wrong about the buckle but this is a link to why they discontinued the holster.This is the same as the briefcase.It is operable without being removed from the case.Otherwise without the firing mech it is just a carry case.

[raymond-]

Originally Posted by rext
This is the same scenario as the North American Arms wallets.When you have the little .22 pistol in the wallet they USED to make and it is fired from the wallet and carried in the wallet,the wallet itself must be registered as a AOW.I had one that I gave to a friend and it came with a ATF letter and AA address on it stating this very fact.If it is used and even owned in conjunction with the gun,it in itself is a AOW.I know its stupid.But my friend I gave it to is going to register the wallet as a AOW for the novelty.Really.This is why they dont offer them anymore.I think the belt buckle is the same way as well,but not positive on that one.


The wallet is an AOW only when it has a trigger hole in it.

in both instances the info is incorrect. the enclosure will *never* be the
AOW, ie controlled item. only the item legally defined as the firearm is. this
is a fine, yet a very important legal point.

[AviatorDave]

in both instances the info is incorrect. the enclosure will *never* be the
AOW, ie controlled item. only the item legally defined as the firearm is. this
is a fine, yet a very important legal point.

Correctamundo. It seems a little counter-intuitive, but if you own an SP89 and the operational briefcase, it is the firearm that must have AOW status. The briefcase is still and always just a briefcase.

[wchiang]

http://people.cs.vt.edu/wchiang/ps90/DSC07800.jpg

This refers to your correspondence to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Firearms Technology Branch, in which ask the following question, which is paraphrased below:

What are the registration requirements for a previously registered MP5K Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) that is installed in a briefcase designed to conceal the firearm and allow the firearm to function while concealed, thus converting this rifle into an Any Other Weather (AOW)?

In order for you to install an SBR in a briefcase as described above, the briefcase and the SBR must be registered together as an AOW on a Form 1.

Before making any modifications to either the briefcase or the rifle in question, you must first contact and obtain approval from the ATF National Firearms Act Branch; their mailing address is:

Chief, National Firearms Act Branch
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, West Virginia 25405

We thank you for your inquiry and trust the foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

John R. Spencer
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

[robfurrow]

+1 on the two stamp (5 bucks is better then 10 years)

[wchiang]

+1 on the two stamp (5 bucks is better then 10 years)

Actually $200. Form 1 to manufacture AOW. But yes, still better than 10 years.

[AviatorDave]

This refers to your correspondence to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Firearms Technology Branch, in which ask the following question, which is paraphrased below:

What are the registration requirements for a previously registered MP5K Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) that is installed in a briefcase designed to conceal the firearm and allow the firearm to function while concealed, thus converting this rifle into an Any Other Weather (AOW)?

In order for you to install an SBR in a briefcase as described above, the briefcase and the SBR must be registered together as an AOW on a Form 1.

Before making any modifications to either the briefcase or the rifle in question, you must first contact and obtain approval from the ATF National Firearms Act Branch; their mailing address is:

Chief, National Firearms Act Branch
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, West Virginia 25405

We thank you for your inquiry and trust the foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

John R. Spencer
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

So I guess if you don't have to make modifications to either the briefcase or the firearm, there's no need to write. They don't seem to have any knowledge of the HK operational briefcases, nor of an MP5K "rifle".

[wchiang]

This brings up another interesting and confusing point:

In order for you to install an SBR in a briefcase as described above, the briefcase and the SBR must be registered together as an AOW on a Form 1.

1. Does this in effect limit which briefcases an AOW can be placed in depending on whether or not it has been registered "TOGETHER" on a Form 1
2. If so, how the hell do you register a briefcase?

[straightgrain]

Further muddying the waters... How would one identify the operational brief case that was registered with the SBR? Would some type of unique identifying number on the case be needed?

[AviatorDave]

+1 on the two stamp (5 bucks is better then 10 years)

$5? It costs $200 to make an AOW. So it would be $400 for stamps.

[LEO]

For an AOW (Any Other Weapon) firearm, there is a $5 transfer tax.


http://www.atf.gov/docs/Identification_of_Firearms_pt2.pdf


Slide 7

[AviatorDave]

For an AOW (Any Other Weapon) firearm, there is a $5 transfer tax.


http://www.atf.gov/docs/Identification_of_Firearms_pt2.pdf


Slide 7

That's correct. It is $5 to transfer, but $200 to "make". Meaning that the first time it's put onto the registry, it will cost $200. After that, just $5 to transfer to someone else.

If you know someone that will do it, especially since no actual work is required, you could get an FFL/SOT to put it on the registry, then pay just the $5 for them to transfer it to you.

[LEO]

Ah!!!

True that!! I forgot he was making his own. Sorry!!

[wchiang]

If you know someone that will do it, especially since no actual work is required, you could get an FFL/SOT to put it on the registry, then pay just the $5 for them to transfer it to you.

whoa.... that is sooo smart!

[raymond-]

Reality is that as nice as that sounds, unless you are in tight with a C2, they're not likely, nor should they be expected, to do this for free. For good faith quid pro quo, you should offer something for their handling of the transaction. C2s still pay their annual tax, they have expenses, and they have bills to pay. Help them out a little, be it dinner, some sort of comp, or other. In the long run, you'll be helping each other out.

[AviatorDave]

Reality is that as nice as that sounds, unless you are in tight with a C2, they're not likely, nor should they be expected, to do this for free. For good faith quid pro quo, you should offer something for their handling of the transaction. C2s still pay their annual tax, they have expenses, and they have bills to pay. Help them out a little, be it dinner, some sort of comp, or other. In the long run, you'll be helping each other out.

Believe me, I've done quite a bit for a couple of C2s around me. Put their kids through college, paid a good chunk of their mortgage, helped pay for plenty of new equipment, and likely helped them buy something shiny for their wife.

[Fred]

No, the briefcase is never registered as the AOW, just the firearm inside. Regiuster your SBR as an AOW and you will be fine (and out another $200)! The briefcase thing hs a cool factor with it. I bought mine and noticed that the barrel tuibe inside was cut down to size a bit. This bothered me until I realized that thye 3-lub barrel needs this tube cut down, so I was happy again.

[AviatorDave]

No, the briefcase is never registered as the AOW, just the firearm inside. Regiuster your SBR as an AOW and you will be fine (and out another $200)!

Did you read post #26 from wchiang? His letter states the contrary. It doesn't clear everything up, however.

[JTinIN]

That's correct. It is $5 to transfer, but $200 to "make". Meaning that the first time it's put onto the registry, it will cost $200. After that, just $5 to transfer to someone else.

If you know someone that will do it, especially since no actual work is required, you could get an FFL/SOT to put it on the registry, then pay just the $5 for them to transfer it to you.

The down side for the Class II is having to potentially having to pay the taxes on "making" a firearm - which if you figure the cost of the MP5K and brief case, the few percent tax can equal or exceed the $200 tax stamp.

Been a couple little smith that got in a bind, as the rulings are "adjusted" over time.

[AviatorDave]

The down side for the Class II is having to potentially having to pay the taxes on "making" a firearm - which if you figure the cost of the MP5K and brief case, the few percent tax can equal or exceed the $200 tax stamp.

Been a couple little smith that got in a bind, as the rulings are "adjusted" over time.

I was wondering about that. But how is the tax calculated? Isn't it on what the item is sold for? If you're not actually buying the MP5K from the dealer, the tax should be low. Or is there some fixed tax amount?