Need advice re Mark 23 and suppressor [Archive]

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Magdump

10-17-2007, 12:41 PM

Howdy folks:

I am considering buying a new HK Mark 23 but I want to get your input regarding this gun. Are they still imported/manufactured?

If I get a Mark 23, I will get a suppressor for it. Please advise what you feel is the current best suppressor option(s) for this handgun. Should I pay the high bucks for a Knight can or are there newer, better performing cans out there for this gun?

Any one who owns, or has worked with a suppressed Mark 23, please advise that this combo is like in the field.

Any advice you can provide is deeply appreciated!

Thanks!

Chris

hkx3

10-17-2007, 12:56 PM

Ive posted this a dozen times, but:

I have a Mark 23 with a Gemtech Blackside. I love the combo. It shoots very close to original POI, and is very lightweight. It is comfortable to shoot dry, but add a little artificial environment (water, oil, grease, etc) and it is real nice.

Overall a nice buy, considering how expensive the KAC is.

My .02.

Hkx3

Tactical Shooter

10-17-2007, 02:43 PM

clkgtr37

10-17-2007, 03:31 PM

http://www.blairbunting.com/leftmark.jpg

another vote for Blackside

Johnnyc

10-17-2007, 04:09 PM

I absolutely hate my Blackside. It's unreliable after 100 rounds on both my Tactical and CT. Maybe it would be more reliable on a Mark 23, but regardless I see no reason why you would buy a louder suppressor simply because it's a little shorter and lighter. That's the only benefit of having a Blackside.

If you really want the total package get the KAC. If you still want a great suppressor but want to save a little money buy the SWR HEMS-II or the AAC Evo-45. You won't be disappointed in either of those 3 cans, but if you get the Blackside and then have the opportunity to use any of the other ones, you'll regret your Blackside purchase. Believe me, talk about buyers remorse. :(

hkx3

10-17-2007, 04:13 PM

There are a lot of fans of Gemtech but you really should check out Advanced Armament's Evolution. I have shot both companies cans on Mark 23s and AACs is much better. Easier to clean, more reliable, lighter and quieter.

I absolutely hate my Blackside. It's unreliable after 100 rounds on both my Tactical and CT. Maybe it would be more reliable on a Mark 23, but regardless I see no reason why you would buy a louder suppressor simply because it's a little shorter and lighter. That's the only benefit of having a Blackside.

If you really want the total package get the KAC. If you still want a great suppressor but want to save a little money buy the SWR HEMS-II or the AAC Evo-45. You won't be disappointed in either of those 3 cans, but if you get the Blackside and then have the opportunity to use any of the other ones, you'll regret your Blackside purchase. Believe me, talk about buyers remorse. :(

Gal dang you Rex! I was so pleased with my Blackside until I got on the internet and read someone elses opinion! Now I know that my suppressor is loud, unreliable, and overall a piece of sh it!

And to think all this time its been 100% reliable, quiet, light, small, and overall a pleasure to own.

Im glad I got this straight now...

This is not to say anything about the fact that you can have a Mk23 and a Blackside for about what a Knights is worth. lol

Post a pic of yours johnnnyc

Magdump

10-17-2007, 04:41 PM

Thank you all for commenting! You have helped me already realize some of the suppressor options available.

I am not loaded with cash by any means but I don't mind saving to buy the very best. I am looking to put together the most topshelf package possible with this handgun. In your opinion, what is the very best option in terms of longevity, reliability, and sound reduction?

Thanks and please keep your comments coming!

Chris

Johnnyc

10-17-2007, 04:45 PM

Gal dang you Rex! I was so pleased with my Blackside until I got on the internet and read someone elses opinion! Now I know that my suppressor is loud, unreliable, and overall a piece of sh it!

And to think all this time its been 100% reliable, quiet, light, small, and overall a pleasure to own.

Im glad I got this straight now...

This is not to say anything about the fact that you can have a Mk23 and a Blackside for about what a Knights is worth. lol

Post a pic of yours johnnnyc

Just out of curiosity, have you shot your Blackside next to any of the suppressors I mentioned? See, cuz I have, and all 3 were quieter, and seeing as my Blackside caused both of my guns to start stovepiping and FTE'ing within 100 rounds an none of their pistols did, I'd say that mine is definitely unreliable. Normally I'd chalk it up to something I did, or something wrong with my pistols, only we did this nice little swap where we mixed up guns and cans and the longest one of the others went before a problem was 127 rounds. Now, as soon as I put one of the boostered cans on my pistol, it went back to functioning perfectly with no stoppages. Test pistols were 1 Mark 23 and 2 Tacticals and 1 CT. Yes, we had different pistons for each thread pitch.

I still don't know how you can say it's all that quiet. It was very noticeably louder than any of the other cans when shot side-by-side. Was less noticeable when all were shot with some wire-pulling gel, but it was still louder.

To be perfectly honest, the only thing I can say that I like about this can is the size and the weight. Unfortunately, it still weighs just a little too much to be reliable without a booster. Even more unfortunate is Gemtech denies that this is a problem and in several e-mails they refuse to entertain the idea of a recoil booster. As much responsibility as they would take was admitting that they couldn't ensure reliability on 1911's or Sig's. I did see a guy who had one on a 1911 and it was functioning ok, but he put a very light recoil spring and could not shoot the pistol unsuppressed without swapping out springs.

Here's the most interesting stoppage, I'm still not quite sure how it happened.

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/6409/img00091nm7.jpg

You're very lucky that you haven't had any problems with yours. However, I would recommend taking it to the range and shooting only suppressed and see if you can get 500 rounds without a stoppage of any kind. I'd be surprised if it worked out for you.

hkx3

10-17-2007, 04:48 PM

Johnnyc

10-17-2007, 04:53 PM

If you dont mind saving money to dump on this, then Id go Knights and be done with it. Might as well get a Wilcox LAM WITH the more elusive IR system. Then, and only then, do you have the ultimate package.

hkx3

Lets see,

Mk23: $1500-2000
LAM w/IR: $2500
KAC Can: $2000?

I can see the point in that-

Its only money!

Definitely agree, though I'm not sure where you're finding the KAC can for 2 grand. I think the last time my dealer had one it was $1200 bucks.

If you really want the cool stuff, might as well go all out with the KAC and Wilcox or Insight LAM. I think one of the dudes here was selling his Wilcox setup for a pretty reasonable price.

hkx3

10-17-2007, 04:54 PM

Not to sound ignorant or uneducated, but why would I truly care if it wouldnt shoot half a case of .45's without some type of stoppage?

Ive always thought suppressing a pistol was a technique used for clandestine operations, where no more than 1-2 or maybe 20 rounds would be fired. Ive never seen anyone wanting to 'burn down' a pistol while being suppressed.

Am I missing something, cause if I am, Im going home tonight to see if I can melt the black off my blackside! lol

Honestly, Ive had real good results with it, but I 'only' shoot about 100-200 rounds per range trip suppressed.

As long as the thing allows me to shoot 50-100 rounds without a problem (which it does), Im happy. Maybe Im just easily amused. Mom and Dad always said a empty shoebox kept me busy for hours. lol

:1900000:

Johnnyc

10-17-2007, 07:10 PM

It's a reliability issue. Problem being is that, sure, it usually takes me between 75 and 100 rounds before it starts producing stoppages. But let's say I'm in a hurry when I get home from the range and don't clean it right away. Now what if, before I have a chance to clean the pistol and restore some semblance of reliability, someone breaks into my house and I'm forced to shoot them. What happens if the pistol stovepipes after the first shot and I get my head blown off because I can't follow up quickly enough? I realize it's a very far-fetched scenario, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

It's a VERY simple fix to ensure reliability, put a booster on it. Even if it isn't the quietest .45 can on the market, big deal, this is the one flaw that has me pulling my hair out. It's not the fact that I probably won't ever need the reliability, but you never know, someday my life might rely on it and I wouldn't want to chance it. If you can't trust the stuff in your hands, what's the point of even owning it.

I'll be honest, it's a range toy, and it does that job ok. I wouldn't trust it beyond that though. Gemtech knows it has reliability issues, and I think what bugs me most is their "oh it's your problem" attitude about it. There's better stuff out there for the money, with companies who have better customer service.

rext

10-17-2007, 07:19 PM

HKx1,
I knew I could unload that Blackside on somebody! Have you shot Marks gun with the AAC on it,just as a comparison? I shot both yours and mine and thought they were all about the same? Thats a M23/Blackside, 45 CT/AAC EVO,and a 45 Tac/Gemtech SOS45. Of course that wasnt many rounds and definitely not scientific but I couldnt tell much if any difference.Mark even remarked that his AAC wasnt as quiet as my old SOS.But I think the two newer ones are better personally.I do have the booster as well on mine.I have never cleaned my Tac since I have had it,but a booster kinda moots that point.
I think that personal experience with all these tells me that they are all good.Unless your ass is on the line I dont think any of them would be a bad choice.You would still need test equipment to tell the difference I think.

hkx3

10-17-2007, 07:24 PM

OK Johnny, lets think about this.

You are concerned about the reliability of a device that you attach to your pistol, when used in the context of a Home Invasion?

I would think that the LAST thing I want on my pistol is a suppressor if the SHTF.

Think like this...
The jury/opposing counsel will pick apart every little minute detail of the night in question.
Are you sure you want them to say, "the 'victim' of the home invasion 'prepared himself' by placing a "Silencer" on his murder weapon?"

"Objection your honor, the weapon used was not a 'murder weapon'."
"Sustained."
"Jurors please strike the last question, and lets proceed more carefully..."

But now the seed of doubt has been placed!

I think the .45 ACP Slug should do the trick, I wouldnt think you would need to be worried about suppressing your piece.

Ill just suffice it to say that I see my suppressor as only a toy, something to up my shooting enjoyment. Im not anywhere near qualified to argue the durability or reliability of a suppressor, or the appropriate usage of a suppressor in tactical or clandestine operations. I just think they are 'neat'. Ive shot several, and own 2, but that doesnt matter when the rubber hits the road. Same models on same model weapons could behave differently. Agreed?

And Ill never use it against another human. Ill save the tacticool whatnot for the range.

SHTF tools are KISS all the way...

Ill freely admit that Gemtech *may* not be the best. And Im comfortable with that. But for what I do with it, it is 100% perfect, and for anyone not wanting 100% top shelf, "I paid all I possibly could for this" type feelings, it is fine.

hkx3

10-17-2007, 07:30 PM

Rex, I had you figured out early-on. Anyone who pulls up in a Chevy 1/2 ton, drops the gate to reveal a load of .308, and hands me a f/a Hk21, MUST be out to get me! lol

And no, I havent gotten to try out Mark's AAC. Hoping to soon, he's a busy guy. Hell someone has to work around here! :)

hkx3

clkgtr37

10-17-2007, 08:27 PM

Definitely agree, though I'm not sure where you're finding the KAC can for 2 grand. I think the last time my dealer had one it was $1200 bucks.

If you really want the cool stuff, might as well go all out with the KAC and Wilcox or Insight LAM. I think one of the dudes here was selling his Wilcox setup for a pretty reasonable price.

That is me, here the auction link:

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=82959575

hkx3

10-17-2007, 09:29 PM

Both of you need to read what I typed:

I already mentioned getting the Wilcox setup, but I said go whole HOG and get the IR enabled unit.

Why get the neutered one without the IR?

Thats whats on Gunbroker. If he had the IR unit, Id already own that auction.

dane421

10-17-2007, 09:34 PM

http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/

mcmillanman5

10-17-2007, 11:56 PM

I have a blackside and I am happy with it considering the price. I would however purchase a booster unit if gemtech offered one, I think jonnyc is correct that this is a flaw on gemtechs part. Another compaint I have about my blackside is that the finish on it sucks it is like a gray blue color. I have a brother that has an aac evo and another brother that has an awc. I have also heard the knights can compared to the other three. If I had it to do over again I would purchase the evo or the knights, both are quieter, more reliable and better looking, (they are also heavier).

With that said I think the gemtech is an ok can if:
A: You are on a budget
B: 100% reliability is not an issue
C: You are not after the quietest silencer

.45ACP

10-18-2007, 12:23 AM

If you're willing to wait a bit I think the prices of the KAC suppressor may be coming down soon. Supposedly they are going to be making their products more available to the general public in the coming months.

Red Cobra

10-18-2007, 01:11 AM

Magdump - Get the real thing for your Mark 23.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/428SCJ/100_1543.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/428SCJ/100_1540.jpg

mcmillanman5

10-18-2007, 02:34 AM

I think the above two posts are correct. Trey Knight has been expressing his desire to focus more on civilian sales and service. With more of the Knights products on the scene prices may come down a bit. I love that scene in Tears of the Sun with the Mark 23/Knights package.

BobtheNailer

10-18-2007, 04:21 AM

Having dealt with Knight, I think it would be a cold day in hell before he lowers his prices OR get his toys out any faster.

With that being said I still love his cans. It has been 20ish weeks since I ordered the KAC serialized to my Mark23 and that was through a direct friend of his who does a crapload of business with them. As I waited I went the AAC Evo route with a LAM450. and am very happy. Dry it is tolerable, but add a thimble of any liquid and it is very quiet.

Not trying to start a flame war, but how many civies actually use the IR function of their Wilcox's for ANYTHING other than the "gee, mine has IR?" maybe I am missing something.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid224/pcb81d9054bfdbce9a5f6704651a7bf1c/eaa98cc2.jpg I will add a photo of the Mark23 tommarow

F22_RaptoR

10-18-2007, 05:21 AM

Not many civies would actually USE the IR portion, let alone justify the money spent to have it. I think it would be neat if you had a pair of NV goggles or an AN/PVS-14, and if you have the cash to throw into a Night optic, im sure you'd have the cash to get an IR laser. It would be good mabey only for sneaking around your basement at night and "killing imaginary bad guys" :p

Having dealt with Knight, I think it would be a cold day in hell before he lowers his prices OR get his toys out any faster.

With that being said I still love his cans. It has been 20ish weeks since I ordered the KAC serialized to my Mark23 and that was through a direct friend of his who does a crapload of business with them. As I waited I went the AAC Evo route with a LAM450. and am very happy. Dry it is tolerable, but add a thimble of any liquid and it is very quiet.

Not trying to start a flame war, but how many civies actually use the IR function of their Wilcox's for ANYTHING other than the "gee, mine has IR?" maybe I am missing something.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid224/pcb81d9054bfdbce9a5f6704651a7bf1c/eaa98cc2.jpg I will add a photo of the Mark23 tommarow

HKAZ

10-18-2007, 05:41 AM

I have a B&T CCF/Swiss on my SOCOM and my TACTICAL. Had them for years. Very quiet, never had a single problem with either one. Finish is still perfect (shiney like SOCOM slide) after 8 years and many rounds. Balances the gun perfectly. Ist timers make easy shots twice as far as any other hand gun. I guess that's why it is one of the two approved by H&K. In stock at LMO and Bachman's. (about $600.00) They were $900.00 when I bought mine. (you can buy an additional Neilson Device to reverse the thread to use the same supressor on a SOCCOM and an EXPERT)

Tactical Shooter

10-18-2007, 11:45 AM

This is the key point - do your homework before you buy class III items. Buying these things is such a pain, you need to do it right the first time. For example, I bought a .22 cal suppressor which was dumb - I should have bought a .223 can because then you get two suppressors for the price of one.

straightgrain

10-18-2007, 01:18 PM

As I think everyone can tell from this thread, there are a lot of opinions about the various cans out there. There's also a lot of good information out there, along with the bad.

<putting on suppressor manufacturer hat>
I have shot more suppressors than most of you because I own part of a company that builds them and have been very fortunate to be involved with the NFA community for a very long time. I've been "on the inside" for a good bit. Production suppressors will vary in performance because they are built to a general specification and not a specific weapon (ie: your HK USP Tactical 45f). Even though some cans are advertised specifically with a USP T 45f, the manufacturer has no way of knowing the condition, tolerance, or maintenance of your specific gun. Further he/she doesn't even know if you're going to even put it on that gun. (I know lots of folks that use our HK 45 can on a 1911!). So the cans are built in general spec, which means the can may not perform optimally on your weapon. To get to optimal requires effort. Before you can get to optimal, you have to define what optimal is. Is it reasonable performance? Beyond reasonable? Within a range? All ammo or a specific ammo? You see where I am going?

It can be difficult for the builder of production cans to provide the customer service that might be expected. More than one or two round trips of tweaking and all profit may be out the window. And some makers will not even do this because the can, as is, is performing within original specs. As a consumer, you should establish the customer service protocol before the purchase, not after. You should also define expectations beforehand. I would be mighty hesitant to "deploy" one of my civilian spec cans to a situation where I knew that there were about to be 500 continuous rounds fired through it. I wouldn't hesitate to drop a mil spec in that role. And I do ask how a can is going to be used before I make a recommendation.

As for performance, I take all of the web site data with a grain of salt. You have to. Some web sites have bias and many, if not all, do not employ realistic testing procedures. The human ear can have trouble perceiving minute differences in db reduction. If my can is 1.2 db more quiet than the other one, is mine better? If mine has no first round pop, but is little louder on subsequent rounds, what then? It gets tricky.

All these folks having great or poor experiences are just that. They are perfectly valid experiences for them, for their weapon, with that can, under that circumstance. A given brand may not perform in the way that a given customer wants. The key, again, is to establish expectations up front.

HK_bug

10-30-2007, 02:57 AM

any insight into the CCF/B&T IMPULS II???

afterall it's only one of two cans that don't void the HK warranty

SudS

10-30-2007, 03:18 AM

My Knight MK23 (serial # to match the gun and additional booster to go on an HK USP 45 Tactical) is going on order now. I've been told by KAC that a production run of the MK23 is nearing completion. It may take some time (delivery/paperwork), but I'll post pics when they are in my hands. And yes, I'd love to complete the ultimate package with a Wilcox IR unit plus the goggles to use it, but that's cash I'd rather spend somewhere else. Yes, if I had the IR unit, I'd be using it for playing home invasion/zombie hunting in my basement. :0:

docmg

10-30-2007, 04:58 PM

I have a Kac MK 23 can on transfer. The cost was 1295 off the boards. Dealer price is 1250. I was gonna order one serial numbered to the gun but I just figured why waste a $100 plus wait forever. I decided to spend the extra $450 over some of the other cans that have been mentioned due to opinions by some people that it is the best dry can available.

TACO

10-30-2007, 09:04 PM

Nobody has mentioned a SWR HEMS2? Do people just not think about SWR or not know about them? They are very nice suppressors.

Aron81

11-02-2007, 03:46 PM

I went with the SWR HEMS II. Waiting on the form 4 to come back from ATF now.

I did quite a bit of research on the net, but don't have any suppressed .45 experience.

From what I gathered, there is no "best." Some have strengths where others are weaker. I tried to go with the best performance for the cost and availability. Also, I like the HEMS II because I can switch the piston out and use it on either the Mark 23 or Tactical (when I get one).

I will have a range report to file when I get the thing. I might go out with the dealer sometime and shoot it a bit before the 4 comes back too!

redgtsviper

06-16-2008, 08:55 PM

I have a Gemtech Blackside for my mark 23. I hear a lot of people complaining about them, but mine is very quiet an my gun functions flawlessly with it. I know the KAC would be the best one to complete the package, but it you are just going to shoot at paper target and cans why spend all that extra cash.

scottinthegrove

06-17-2008, 09:28 PM

Well, I lucked into a used Mark 23 with an original HEMS can as a package deal. I liked the 23 so much, I bought a new one so I could have the lifetime warranty. I sold the used one. I ended up with $300 in the suppressor. I sent it back to SWR to have it upgraded to the HEMS II. It functions well and is fun. It is handy that I don't have to buy special ammo to use with the can.

If sound suppression is very important to you, I would consider looking into 9mm instead of .45. It is my understanding that the larger the hole at the end of the suppressor, the harder it is to keep the sound inside the can. My HEMS II with a little spit or water is quiet enough that I don't need hearing protection. But I have heard 9mm cans that made the sound of the action louder than the sound of the gun going off. Don't get me wrong, I love my 23. It is my favorite handgun. But I don't think anyone's .45 can will ever be as quiet as a good 9mm can.

Scott

Gunnerside

08-30-2009, 10:09 PM