What's your favorite caliber?

[rossfashow]

What caliber do HK users favor most and why?

[bauerdb]

9mm...cause I buy and shoot the stuff by the case

[capone]

9MM.

[Mouseboy]

9mm...cause I buy and shoot the stuff by the case

Me too, 9mm is my favorite. I also like 45ACP but its 2X the cost to shoot at the range. Plus, I see no measurable advantage 45 has in "knockdown" potential when +P 9mm is used. :p

[Iceman505]

.40 s+w. Plenty of speed with a good size bullet. A good, dare i say, compromise between 9mm and .45.

[.45ACP]

Me too, 9mm is my favorite. I also like 45ACP but its 2X the cost to shoot at the range. Plus, I see no measurable advantage 45 has in "knockdown" potential when +P 9mm is used. :p

I like putting .81" diameter holes in people, which a good .45 JHP can do. I'll take .45 ACP please. +P is available for .45 ACP as well.

[Big Bore]

You have three guesses and if it takes more than one you need to hang out here more.
1. It works.
2. It is accurate.
3. The cost is not that much more than the others when you buy in bulk and/or reload.
4. Its been doing it for almost 100 years without peer IMO.
5. Big bullets make big holes and big holes takes the wind out of anythings sail in a big hurry. Did I mention size actually does matter?

[.45ACP]

You have three guesses and if it takes more than one you need to hang out here more.
1. It works.
2. It is accurate.
3. The cost is not that much more than the others when you buy in bulk and/or reload.
4. Its been doing it for almost 100 years without peer IMO.
5. Big bullets make big holes and big holes takes the wind out of anythings sail in a big hurry. Did I mention size actually does matter?

I'm with you 100%. 9mm and .40 S&W are not pea shooters, but neither can fire a 230gr JHP.

[capone]

You have three guesses and if it takes more than one you need to hang out here more.
1. It works.
2. It is accurate.
3. The cost is not that much more than the others when you buy in bulk and/or reload.
4. Its been doing it for almost 100 years without peer IMO.
5. Big bullets make big holes and big holes takes the wind out of anythings sail in a big hurry. Did I mention size actually does matter?

20mm?

[Kost]

.45 Automatic Colt Pistol (ACP)

[940curtis]

45 is great for USP
9MM is better in the mp5 "easier to write your name on full auto"
Got to Love what a 308 will do HK91
223. for the sl8/g36 when the shoulder gets sore from the 91 and arms get tired from the weight of the ammo.

If i got to choose 308 if the surplus stuff come back soon getting low $#!t

[Deacon51]

It depends on where I'm at, if im in line at BassPro, or punching holes in paper, I love a 9mm.

If I got my choice on the street I'm carrying 40S&W.

[HK1286]

I have 2 9mm HKs. Great to go to the range and practice shooting. But a 45 acp. is what I carry for duty. A 9mm. can expand, but a 45 acp. is not going to shrink either.

[Cadillac Johnson]

I'm partial to .40sw.

I just think it does so many things, so well, it's hard to look past it's versatility.

If you reload, even at safe pressures, you can get PRETTY close to full power 10mm loads, which is something 9mm, .357sig, .45acp cant do.

I do like 9mm and .45acp's, and .357sig is always a very fun load, but if I had to choose one it's .40sw.

[raven66]

40 cal all the way!!!!

raven66

[sfguard]

9mm ammo is still fairly cheap for practice, and it is a powerful enough round. After all shot placement is everything.

[Gunfan9x19]

I'd say 9mm Luger (not to be confused with 9mm SAAMI). It isn't expensive to practice with, and it does a pretty good job at HD/CCW.

[HKAZ]

1/230g .45 = 2/115g 9mm. It's simple math.

[TexasJim]

I like 9mm, 40S&W, 357 Mag, 44Mag, & 45acp. TJ

[KILO1-1]

45ACP then 9mm.

[dtheman]

I'd say .45, but 9mm for concealed carry. I like to keep my capacity at or over 10 rounds.

[SauceNJ]

I currently only own one handgun - and have become pretty proficient with it - USP .45. Perhaps I could be an even better shot with a 9mm and it's definately cheaper. But I'm almost scared to get one - whats the point? All you need is one great handgun and the skill to use it. My choice - .45.

[Mark71]

9mm- I shoot it the best and it is fun and cheap to shoot. Plus with modern ammo it is more then enough to get the job done.

[ARKAY.357]

GUESS??!!

LOL;

ARKAY

[Andre]

No offence to all the .45 guys (great round), but magazine capacity is a limiting factor here. I live in South Africa and we have groups of up to twelve guys invading homes while the people are watching TV. Then you need a gun that can carry a lot of bullets, no matter what size they are.

Thats where .40S&W comes in handy. Although I cant carry as many beads as in my Glock 17, my USP40c (with as pare mag) allows me 25 rounds of 180gr Gold dots. I prefer that to the 17 rounds of the USP45c.

Besides, 2 9mm holes are still bigger than 1 .45!

[ajl2121]

People's preferences are often linked to the type of environment or threats that they are exposed to. I, however, living in CA am limited to only 10 rounds of any round...Therefore, the capacity issue between 9mm, .40, .45, etc. etc are a moot point. I opt for the .45. It is a proven round since 1911, and has the reputation of being a man's round. Not that anything less isn't of course. I guess if size was everything, most people would get a .50 Action Express. I never owned one, but the FN 5.7 is pretty nice as well. 20 rounds and good armor piercing abilities.

[rossfashow]

Wow 3 pages since I've posted this 7-8 hours ago. Most HK users seem to be either 9mm or .45 and very few .40. I totally agree it depends on the situation like in CA they are limited to 10 rounds so I believe a .45 will work well. And in places where threats travel in groups, you'll want higher capacity. But it all comes to what caliber you can shoot best with. For me I like the 9mm then .45 but its so hard to choose because I can shoot them both really well. 9mm is cheaper, therefore more practice. Plus bullet tech is getting better and better. And I wouldnt want to be in a receiving end of any bullet let alone JHP no matter how small the round was.

[loupav]

9mm and then .45 Auto! for pistol.

Rifle .308

Just to screw around with either .22

[JLStorm]

I wish I could break away from the 45ACP, but it just feels amazing to shoot compared to 40 or 9mm. Plus, everytime I line 40, 9mm , and 45ACP up together, the choice seems even more clear. As far as expansion, well I have read more than I can remember and where jhp is concerned 45 doesnt seem to have much of an advantage, but all I can say is while 40 or 9mm ay fail to expand, 45 aint gonna shrink lol. Anyway, I carry 45 most of the time, but I dont think I would feel undergunned with any of them.

[Gombu]

I have a USP in 9, 40 and 45. I can say my least favorite is the 40.

Hard for me to pick what I like better 9 or 45 and it depends on the shooting situation. I have no problems using my Kahr P9 or USP 9c as a primary CCW esp in the summer months.

Prefer my USP 45 for IDPA and winter carry.

Love the USP V1 platform!

[DoubleApexCa]

105mm HE with VT/Quick Fuse

:17:

:D

[Mouseboy]

Nobody mentioned 22 Rimfire. Its a fine cartridge for the range and dirt cheap to shoot 1K rounds.

[orfeo]

I much prefer 45 ACP to any other handgun caliber:

I shoot 45 the best, I like the recoil characteristics of the 45 the best, I like the inherant stopping power of even 45 caliber ball ammo, and I find the 45 to be the safest and easiest cartridge to reload.

All that having been said however, nothing beats a good tactical shotgun for efficient home defense in my opinion. . . :)

[Dehammer]

10mm w/1911

[Chris Sanchez]

9mm and.45acp are my choices for pistol calibers. It would be better to stick to two calibers than one, in my case, for logistical reasons. Sometimes availability is scarce as far as good .45acp is concerned (at least within the proximity where I usually dwell).

Advantages of 9mm:
> most number of rounds in a given size pistol
> can have optimum performance in wider range of pistol barrel lengths
> economical to fire in quantity

Advantages of .45acp
> better windshiled penetration (more applicable to law enforcers)
> slightly bigger wound profile as compared to equivalent bullet designs of the smaller calibers

Though, it has been stated several times that .45acp has the edge in incapacitation, the advantages were somewhat incremental (so it depends solely to the user if he/she thinks is worth it in exchange of added recoil, but if you ask me, its "worth it")

I really dont find a need for a.40SW caliber pistol, since it is a compromise diameter (in which the difference between the 9mm and .45acp is already incremental) and yet the pressure is higher than both 9mm and .45acp and the margin of error for reloaders are somewhat narrower than the two calibers. .45acp is still incrementally superior to .40SW using much less pressure but the .40SW is not convincingly superior to 9mm, specifically if we are talking about the latest 9mm 147gr JHP loads like the Gold Dot, Golden Saber, Ranger-T, and the 135gr Federal Tactical. The added wear-and-tear brought about by .40SW and the reduced magazine capacity, IMHO, is not worth it.

[softmentor]

.40 s+w. Plenty of speed with a good size bullet. A good, dare i say, compromise between 9mm and .45.

No no no .... BALANCE ::smiles his jolly smile:: HKers never compromise.

oh, and fav. cal.\
that would be 12 gauge
but then I never met a caliber I didn't like. so... which ever one is in my hand.
do I really have to choose?

[kilo-11]

I would have to say 45 then 40 followed by 9mm.

I carry 45 off duty, but carry 40 on duty.

40 is the best balance between magazine capacity (9mm) and knock down power (45).

I have actually read quite a few comparisons showing the 40 having more FPE on impact than the 45, not by much, but that is nice.

[MaverickHK]

For everyday carry, 45 (Mark 23 or USPc).

For camping and hunting, 10mm or 357 mag.

For deep conceal, 357 mag or 9mm (P7).

But overall, have to go with old faithful, 45 acp.

[Zebra 24]

45 ACP...big hole not not velocity dependant like the 9mm

[Nater]

45ACP then 9mm.

Ditto

[Ninjamaster]

Finally someone mentions the 10mm! Thats my fav. I actually liked it in a Glock 20(16 rounds) better than a Delta Elite(8 rounds).

Next is .45.

Next is .40.

No one likes 38 Super anymore?

as for 9mm, no mention, well kinda

[mosesv2]

By a very wide margin: .22 Long Rifle

I collect and shoot rimfire rifles and pistols with my son and daughter. AWESOME!


My top centerfire is .45 ACP, but then I have a Dillon progressive reloader. I also like .44 mag and .357 mag. Second place for auto cartridge is 9mm.

Least favorite is .40 S&W (10mm kurz)... don't like anything about it from a reloading or shooting perspective.

[vanderson]

Pistol: 9mm and .45 ACP

Rifle: 5.56 (.223)

Survival Rifle: .22lr

[H&K 4 LIFE]

.22 LR is the most fun to shoot. When you want to shoot all day for cheap nothing beats a .22.

For a SD round I prefer 9mm Luger. It gets the job done and you can still practice for cheap. It is true larger bullets expand more, but the 9mm is still a high velocity round. Most regular (non +P) 9mm JHP loads surpass the FBI's protcol for a minimum of 12" of penetration by more than 2 inches.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm147grGoldenSaber.html

I like the .40 next followed by the hallowed .45. Maybe I just have not shot enough .45's to appreciate in this round. I just shoot the 9mm better than the other two and I believe consistent accuracy beats additional power anyday. If you can shoot a .45 well then I say carry one.

For a rifle I prefer .308.

[MONEY]

I would say 10mm but since HK does not make a handgun chambered in that round my rating is .40 S&W #1 / .45 #2 only since capacity is low / 357 Sig #3 then 9mm last at 4th place. I know there is probably nothing wrong with 9mm but I do not feel as protected with it as the others plus most of the law enforcement agencies have moved away from 9mm for a reason even though 9mm is cheaper.

[.45ACP]

I would say 10mm but since HK does not make a handgun chambered in that round my rating is .40 S&W #1 / .45 #2 only since capacity is low / 357 Sig #3 then 9mm last at 4th place. I know there is probably nothing wrong with 9mm but I do not feel as protected with it as the others plus most of the law enforcement agencies have moved away from 9mm for a reason even though 9mm is cheaper.

A .40 S&W USP only holds 1 more round then a USP .45. That isn't a very big difference.

[paratroop23]

A .40 S&W USP only holds 1 more round then a USP .45. That isn't a very big difference.

Unless you have a jet funnel and "white mags". Then it's 16+1 vs 12+1.

[MONEY]

A .40 S&W USP only holds 1 more round then a USP .45. That isn't a very big difference.


One round difference between .40 & .45 is not normal for most hand guns plus the USP .45 is larger with a thicker grip. The USP .40 compact carries 4 more rounds than the USP .45 compact which carries 8 + 1.

USP .45 FULL SIZE 12+1
USP .40 FULL SIZE 13+1 (16+1 WITH JET FUNNEL)
USP.45 COMPACT 8+1
USP.40 COMPACT 12+1
GLOCK 21 .45 FULL SIZE 13+1
GLOCK 22 .40 FULL SIZE 15+1
GLOCK 30 .45 COMPACT 9+1
GLOCK 23 .40 COMPACT 13+1

[Snapper314]

One round difference between .40 & .45 is not normal for most hand guns plus the USP .45 is larger with a thicker grip. The USP .40 compact carries 4 more rounds than the USP .45 compact which carries 8 + 1.

USP .45 FULL SIZE 12+1
USP .40 FULL SIZE 13+1 (16+1 WITH JET FUNNEL)
USP.45 COMPACT 8+1
USP.40 COMPACT 12+1
GLOCK 21 .45 FULL SIZE 13+1
GLOCK 22 .40 FULL SIZE 15+1
GLOCK 30 .45 COMPACT 9+1
GLOCK 23 .40 COMPACT 13+1

If you put the HK45 magazine in the USP .45 Compact, it should hold 10+1.

BTW, my favorite calibers:

Pistol: .45ACP
Rifle: .223 or .308

[MONEY]

If you put the HK45 magazine in the USP .45 Compact, it should hold 10+1.

BTW, my favorite calibers:

Pistol: .45ACP
Rifle: .223 or .308

And stick out of the magwell.

[pilotdane]

My favorite is 9mm for it's low cost and mild recoil. I can shoot it all day long. My home defense gun (Beretta) has 16 rounds of +P. It may be dark and I could have to resort to spraying in case of a zombie attack.

For CC I have a new .40 P2000sk. This gun is for work where I think one or two attackers are most likely and I should have good visibility of my target. Hopefully 9+1 is sufficient. Unfortuantley the P2Ksk is not rated for +P like the USPs or I might have choosen 9mm instead of .40.

[NonConformist]

.40 caliber.

its a good round to have, and IMO you get the best of both worlds AFA 9mm vs .45

[Tullo]

In my opinion 357 sig 1st & 9mm 2nd

[Cadillac Johnson]

I really dont find a need for a.40SW caliber pistol, since it is a compromise diameter (in which the difference between the 9mm and .45acp is already incremental) and yet the pressure is higher than both 9mm and .45acp and the margin of error for reloaders are somewhat narrower than the two calibers. .45acp is still incrementally superior to .40SW using much less pressure but the .40SW is not convincingly superior to 9mm, specifically if we are talking about the latest 9mm 147gr JHP loads like the Gold Dot, Golden Saber, Ranger-T, and the 135gr Federal Tactical. The added wear-and-tear brought about by .40SW and the reduced magazine capacity, IMHO, is not worth it.

I'm 99.9% sure that the .40sw operates at lower pressure's than the 9mm.

What can a 124gr 9mm do that a 135gr .40sw cant?

147gr 9mm vs. 155gr .40sw?

Your also going to have a hard time convincing me that a +p 9mm puts less wear on a pistol than a standard .40sw. Considering that's the only way a 9mm can approach .40sw energy wise, that's what you should be comparing.

Not to mention, .40sw leaves a bigger hole.

Dont take this the wrong way, I really like 9mm, but I get a little irk'd when people say there's no need for the .40sw. It's the most versatile load, and depending on whether you favor light and fast or heavy and slow there's a load for you. It certainly has it's place, and it's filled that niche nicely.

*edit*

SAAMI pressures;

9mm - 35,000
9mm+p - 38,500
.40sw - 35,000

[Tactical Shooter]

9mm is a great round if you want the bullet to bounce off the target. This round is one of the great weaknesses of the HK system - particular the MP5. .45 ACP rules!

[rohardi]

I have a 40 usp copmact. It will be being replaced by a 45 tactical then a USPc 45. The 40 has a little too much muzzel rise for follow up shots.

[Schneider333]

If all I am interested in is competetive shooting (which I have no experience in but is the reason I'm going to buy an HK) which caliber is more user friendly?

[HKAZ]

Has anyone made a 10MM or .50AE modification to a SOCOM or .45 EXPERT ? A 10MM/.40 EXPERT conversion with a jet funnel?

[RMTactical]

It's hard to go wrong with 9mm. Shot placement is king.

[Schneider333]

I went to a Glock competition today at a nearby range (Pima Pistol, info at pimapistol.org) and I was talking to some folks over there. Now, please understand that I am totally new to guns. I have a .22 Browning that I've shot for about 5 months. I bought it just so I could show my wife I could be safe with it. At the range today I asked fellas what they thought the best caliber was and they said that in most IDPA competitions, .40 and .45 is the best. I don't need my future HK for CCW purposes, for self defense. So now I have a new question: Why is .40 or .45 the most shot caliber at shooting competitions?

[rossfashow]

.40 is a tacdriver but with a bit more muzzle flip

[H&K 4 LIFE]

9mm is a great round if you want the bullet to bounce off the target. This round is one of the great weaknesses of the HK system - particular the MP5. .45 ACP rules!

Bounce off the target? Hardly. What are you shooting at steel robots?

[Lukas Koukal]

9mm in M13 all the way. Will change the attitude once I get that *******ed M7 ;)

[Reoze]

9mm is a great round if you want the bullet to bounce off the target. This round is one of the great weaknesses of the HK system - particular the MP5. .45 ACP rules!

Uh what? I'd love to know who told you that.

[Cadillac Johnson]

Bounce off the target? Hardly. What are you shooting at steel robots?

Just wait till Y2K finally hits..

When those robots come after you, you'll wish you had a .45 :61:

[H&K 4 LIFE]

Just wait till Y2K finally hits..

When those robots come after you, you'll wish you had a .45 :53:

I'll take a 12ga. or a .308 then. No sense shooting robots with a handgun. You must destroy their CPU to kill them! :)

:18:

[kdogg]

With ammo costs the way they are right now, my fav is the 9mm. I don't shoot my .40 or .45 too much right now. Ammo costs too damn much.

[H&K 4 LIFE]

Uh what? I'd love to know who told you that.

I'm sure it's just his opinion, formed on the basis of loving the .45 so much that everything else MUST be junk. Because I'm fairly certain hes never seen a 9mm bounce off it's intended target.

With that said my next gun will most likely be a .45. But the 9mm is no pea shooter.

[reaper8154]

I've heard horror stories of 9mm hitting someone in the forehead just right, and the round glances off. I think its probably BS, but if any of you guys has a 9mm bounce off your head let me know, then go buy a lottery ticket!

[Tecumseh]

.40 s+w. Plenty of speed with a good size bullet. A good, dare i say, compromise between 9mm and .45.


This is my choice as well as reasoning.

[Reoze]

I've heard horror stories of 9mm hitting someone in the forehead just right, and the round glances off. I think its probably BS, but if any of you guys has a 9mm bounce off your head let me know, then go buy a lottery ticket!
I find that very hard to believe, a .22 will fracture someones skull, never mind a 9mm.

[softmentor]

I find that very hard to believe, a .22 will fracture someones skull, never mind a 9mm.

make no mistake, a .22 can penetrate a human skull. Especially some of the high velocity rounds going 1400, 1500, 1600 fps or more.

[softmentor]

I went to a Glock competition today at a nearby range (Pima Pistol, info at pimapistol.org) and I was talking to some folks over there. Now, please understand that I am totally new to guns. I have a .22 Browning that I've shot for about 5 months. I bought it just so I could show my wife I could be safe with it. At the range today I asked fellas what they thought the best caliber was and they said that in most IDPA competitions, .40 and .45 is the best. I don't need my future HK for CCW purposes, for self defense. So now I have a new question: Why is .40 or .45 the most shot caliber at shooting competitions?

almost need another thread for this but the short answer is power factor. These competitions have a power factor requirement and for IPSA at least, 9 mm can't make the "major" division power factor. It is considered "minor" power factor. Power factor is grains times velocity.

[SuperDaveVIII]

Favorites are 10mm for handgun, and 30.06 when I wanna reach out and touch someone ;)

But those are cost prohibitive, so I stick with 9mm and 5.56, since I can practice a lot more. And the more I practice, the better I shoot. And shot placement is more important than the size of the hole ;D

[Reoze]

almost need another thread for this but the short answer is power factor. These competitions have a power factor requirement and for IPSA at least, 9 mm can't make the "major" division power factor. It is considered "minor" power factor. Power factor is grains times velocity.

Aside from the minimum "power" requirements, a lot of the reactive targets require a certain amount of energy to knock over which makes smaller cartridges that "just make" the requirements worse solutions than a higher caliber round.

[gunut45]

.45 ACP

Read the sig line :D

[PolygonalGuy]

I think it is a 3 tiered question:

For FA blasting fun:9MM

For Defense: 40SW

For Match and Target: 45ACP

Kinda covers the gambit!

I reload all so each can be had reasonable if you want crank em out.

[JLStorm]

I went to a Glock competition today at a nearby range (Pima Pistol, info at pimapistol.org) and I was talking to some folks over there. Now, please understand that I am totally new to guns. I have a .22 Browning that I've shot for about 5 months. I bought it just so I could show my wife I could be safe with it. At the range today I asked fellas what they thought the best caliber was and they said that in most IDPA competitions, .40 and .45 is the best. I don't need my future HK for CCW purposes, for self defense. So now I have a new question: Why is .40 or .45 the most shot caliber at shooting competitions?

Like others have said, reactive targets often dont get enough knock down power from a 9mm. Also 45ACP holes can be a lot easier to see at 9mm. It all depends on the target. For paper punching I dont see a need for 45 in competition, but for steel, well thats a different story. The most important thing is to find a round you are comfortable with for CCW, then compete with what you carry. For me that is 45, for many it is a 40 or 9mm, they all have their pros and cons.

[ingram357`]

I only have one handgun for carry, an HK P2K .357sig. I love the size and feel of the gun, and feel confident in the stopping power of this caliber.
I carry it loaded with Speer GoldDot 125gr. GDHP
I hardly ever see anyone in here post much at all about the .357sig and am a little disappointed, surely there are more fans out there than just me.
I don't get into shootouts with thugs on a weekly basis, or even go out looking for one, I just want to be somewhat prepared if I do get in that situation at one time in my life. I don't shoot every week,( I wish I could) I shoot when I get a chance and can afford to, I have been around guns and shooting all my life so I feel very comfortable in my ability to hit what I shoot at within any reasonable distance...any farther and I'm gonna be running the other way anyway!
Anyway, mostly the reasons I have chosen the .357sig is that I used to have a .357 mag Colt revolver that I loved to shoot( really felt the power in the recoil) and all the ballistics I can find shows the sig and the mag nearly the same. Also, comparing ballistics to the .45's, still the .357sig almost matches and betters most of the ballistics given by the bullet manufacturers.
Hopefully I can avoid shooting at people out passed say about 25-50 yards and start running by then if any bad guys are still coming. Like I said, I'm not looking for a gunfight, just trying to get out of a bad situation alive!
Not that it would change what I carry, but someone tell me,"what's wrong with the .357sig that seems to be making it into the "the red headed step child"?
[Sorry about the numbers running together]

Here are Speer's Comparisons:

Gold Dot Personal Protection - 357 SIG


Cartridge Wt. Bullet Type
357SIG 125 GDHP
Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
1375 1203 1079 525 402 323


Cartridge Wt. Bullet Type
45 Auto 230 GDHP
Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50yards 100yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
890 845 805 404 365 331



Bullet Wt. Bullet Type
45 Auto +P 200 GDHP

Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50yards 100yards Muzzle 50yards 100yards
1080 994 930 518 439 384

[JLStorm]

I only have one handgun for carry, an HK P2K .357sig. I love the size and feel of the gun, and feel confident in the stopping power of this caliber.
I carry it loaded with Speer GoldDot 125gr. GDHP
I hardly ever see anyone in here post much at all about the .357sig and am a little disappointed, surely there are more fans out there than just me.
I don't get into shootouts with thugs on a weekly basis, or even go out looking for one, I just want to be somewhat prepared if I do get in that situation at one time in my life. I don't shoot every week,( I wish I could) I shoot when I get a chance and can afford to, I have been around guns and shooting all my life so I feel very comfortable in my ability to hit what I shoot at within any reasonable distance...any farther and I'm gonna be running the other way anyway!
Anyway, mostly the reasons I have chosen the .357sig is that I used to have a .357 mag Colt revolver that I loved to shoot( really felt the power in the recoil) and all the ballistics I can find shows the sig and the mag nearly the same. Also, comparing ballistics to the .45's, still the .357sig almost matches and betters most of the ballistics given by the bullet manufacturers.
Hopefully I can avoid shooting at people out passed say about 25-50 yards and start running by then if any bad guys are still coming. Like I said, I'm not looking for a gunfight, just trying to get out of a bad situation alive!
Not that it would change what I carry, but someone tell me,"what's wrong with the .357sig that seems to be making it into the "the red headed step child"?
[Sorry about the numbers running together]

Here are Speer's Comparisons:

Gold Dot Personal Protection - 357 SIG


Cartridge Wt. Bullet Type
357SIG 125 GDHP
Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
1375 1203 1079 525 402 323


Cartridge Wt. Bullet Type
45 Auto 230 GDHP
Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50yards 100yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
890 845 805 404 365 331



Bullet Wt. Bullet Type
45 Auto +P 200 GDHP

Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50yards 100yards Muzzle 50yards 100yards
1080 994 930 518 439 384

.357 Sig is a nice caliber, most people I know are waiting to see if it pans out or becomes a fad caliber. I see more and more departments carrying it, so it may last. The main reason people I know of who are interested in it, but dont use it is the cost. As far as your bullet data, it depends if you would prefer to get hit in the face with a fast ball, or a slower lobbed bowling ball. Remember, there is a big size difference there. I wouldnt want to stand in front of either of them, but I suspect 45 is a bit more pleasureful to shoot for most, and its tried and true in just about every situation.

[SgtTurtle]

Just purchased my first HK and researched this issue to death before I made my purchase. My original plan was to buy a USPc .45. When I actually went with money in hand to the gun store, I ended up buying the P2000 LEM in .40.

All the research I read indicates that there is very little difference between all of the accepted service calibers. The studies all indicated that shot placement was most important. Check out:

http://www.neiassociates.org/caliber.htm

http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html

Prior to looking at the research I was dead-set on going with the .45. After looking at the research I was a little more open minded. (Remember that the military guys complain about 9mm because they are stuck with ball ammo.)

The P2000 has a modern light rail and seems a little more sleek (size-wise for CCW) than the USPc. Capacity is 12+1. It also just fit better in my hand than the USP.

The USPc was available in .45 and capacity was 8+1.

Perhaps if the P2000 was available in .45 I would have bought that.

So far, I have been very happy with the .40. I am spending my time at the range because I know that getting the shots into the target is more important than throwing a slightly bigger ball of lead.

My next purchase will probably be a Kahr PM9 for pocket carry.

My absolute favorite weapon is the MK19 40 mm grenade launcher. Too bad it is a little big for CCW. Check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_19_grenade_launcher

[Cobra64]

Why didn't you post as a poll?

[jonbondave]

I find that very hard to believe, a .22 will fracture someones skull, never mind a 9mm.


well actually any caliber bullet can do this. handgun bullets can easily deflect on portions of a human skull. which is why unless I'm shooting a carbine I'll stick to torso shots, despite being slightly easier to land. even if a bullet dleflected off your skull it would leave one hell of a laceration and might rneder you unconcious.


back to original question. .40 cal for self defense, one should be armed as the local police are armed at least as far as caliber goes, if you can duplicate their duty ammo that is even better. that way if you use a gun and go to court they can't slap you with some BS about loading your gun to kill. that's what we all do, but it's not PC. My gun is no more or less deadly than those carried by my local peace officer. you see my point? I enjoy shooting both 9mm and .45 ACP better than .40. but I can shoot .40 well enough and it's good enough to do the job for me.

[paratroop23]

Bounce off the target? Hardly. What are you shooting at steel robots?

Ditto!!!!

[N6ATF]

45 ACP

[Tecumseh]

It seems that we all agree somewhat. In the end I think we can all agree that if we have to shoot it out, we should bring a rifle. Perhaps a 416...;)

[rossfashow]

Why didn't you post as a poll?

tried to but didnt know how to

[MONEY]

I only have one handgun for carry, an HK P2K .357sig. I love the size and feel of the gun, and feel confident in the stopping power of this caliber.
I carry it loaded with Speer GoldDot 125gr. GDHP
I hardly ever see anyone in here post much at all about the .357sig and am a little disappointed, surely there are more fans out there than just me.
I don't get into shootouts with thugs on a weekly basis, or even go out looking for one, I just want to be somewhat prepared if I do get in that situation at one time in my life. I don't shoot every week,( I wish I could) I shoot when I get a chance and can afford to, I have been around guns and shooting all my life so I feel very comfortable in my ability to hit what I shoot at within any reasonable distance...any farther and I'm gonna be running the other way anyway!
Anyway, mostly the reasons I have chosen the .357sig is that I used to have a .357 mag Colt revolver that I loved to shoot( really felt the power in the recoil) and all the ballistics I can find shows the sig and the mag nearly the same. Also, comparing ballistics to the .45's, still the .357sig almost matches and betters most of the ballistics given by the bullet manufacturers.
Hopefully I can avoid shooting at people out passed say about 25-50 yards and start running by then if any bad guys are still coming. Like I said, I'm not looking for a gunfight, just trying to get out of a bad situation alive!
Not that it would change what I carry, but someone tell me,"what's wrong with the .357sig that seems to be making it into the "the red headed step child"?
[Sorry about the numbers running together]

Here are Speer's Comparisons:

Gold Dot Personal Protection - 357 SIG


Cartridge Wt. Bullet Type
357SIG 125 GDHP
Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
1375 1203 1079 525 402 323


Cartridge Wt. Bullet Type
45 Auto 230 GDHP
Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50yards 100yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
890 845 805 404 365 331



Bullet Wt. Bullet Type
45 Auto +P 200 GDHP

Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50yards 100yards Muzzle 50yards 100yards
1080 994 930 518 439 384

I just bought a HKP2000 in .357 Sig & I love it. It is very accurate & has virtually no muzzle flash when useing high quality ammo like the Speer Gold dot hollow points. I also have a factory HK .40 cal barrel so I can change calibers but I have not yet tried it to compare accuracy.

[Cadillac Johnson]

I only have one handgun for carry, an HK P2K .357sig. I love the size and feel of the gun, and feel confident in the stopping power of this caliber.
I carry it loaded with Speer GoldDot 125gr. GDHP
I hardly ever see anyone in here post much at all about the .357sig and am a little disappointed, surely there are more fans out there than just me.
I don't get into shootouts with thugs on a weekly basis, or even go out looking for one, I just want to be somewhat prepared if I do get in that situation at one time in my life. I don't shoot every week,( I wish I could) I shoot when I get a chance and can afford to, I have been around guns and shooting all my life so I feel very comfortable in my ability to hit what I shoot at within any reasonable distance...any farther and I'm gonna be running the other way anyway!
Anyway, mostly the reasons I have chosen the .357sig is that I used to have a .357 mag Colt revolver that I loved to shoot( really felt the power in the recoil) and all the ballistics I can find shows the sig and the mag nearly the same. Also, comparing ballistics to the .45's, still the .357sig almost matches and betters most of the ballistics given by the bullet manufacturers.
Hopefully I can avoid shooting at people out passed say about 25-50 yards and start running by then if any bad guys are still coming. Like I said, I'm not looking for a gunfight, just trying to get out of a bad situation alive!
Not that it would change what I carry, but someone tell me,"what's wrong with the .357sig that seems to be making it into the "the red headed step child"?
[Sorry about the numbers running together]

Here are Speer's Comparisons:

Gold Dot Personal Protection - 357 SIG


Cartridge Wt. Bullet Type
357SIG 125 GDHP
Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
1375 1203 1079 525 402 323


Cartridge Wt. Bullet Type
45 Auto 230 GDHP
Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50yards 100yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
890 845 805 404 365 331



Bullet Wt. Bullet Type
45 Auto +P 200 GDHP

Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50yards 100yards Muzzle 50yards 100yards
1080 994 930 518 439 384

I think it's the ammo cost more than anything, but I also blame ammo makers.

IF ammo makers loaded it like it should be loaded, ie. 125gr bullet at 1425ft/sec from a 4in barrel, it would be more popular. When they load it to 1325-1350ft/sec, it makes the 9mm more appealing.

Now if you handload, you can get those velocity's while keeping the pressure's within spec. However, if you handload you have more 135gr .40sw bullet options. If you can get .357sig velocity's from a .40sw, why buy a .357sig?

Until more LE agencies adopt the .357sig, the ammo cost will stay high. Until the ammo cost drops, LE agencies will stay away from it.

It's a great round, but when you have those things working against you, it's tough hill to climb.

[HK45]

The Secrete Service are just fine with the .357SIG round.

[GroovedG19]

.45Acp for my USP and 9x19mm Parabellum for my others.

[Tecumseh]

I have been looking at P2000's in .357 Sig as of late.

[bdg146]

I'm too new to handguns to label a favorite caliber, but I've shot rifles all my life, and I have to ask...
Where's the love for the .270??? Definitely my favorite rifle caliber.

[AviatorDave]

It seems that we all agree somewhat. In the end I think we can all agree that if we have to shoot it out, we should bring a rifle. Perhaps a 416...;)

That reminds me of the guy in this cheesy video we watched at my CHL class - "Handguns in any caliber are not very powerful weapons. They're really only good to give you time to get to bigger guns, namely, rifles."

[AviatorDave]

I'm too new to handguns to label a favorite caliber, but I've shot rifles all my life, and I have to ask...
Where's the love for the .270??? Definitely my favorite rifle caliber.

But HK doesn't make anything in .270. :)

[ltbarber]

45............because they don't make a 46!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Iceman505]

45............because they don't make a 46!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


But there is a .50 GI, so why not that?

[NickC]

For me personally, I'm finding over the years it really depends on the platform. My list is in terms of overall comfort and accuracy.

45acp in 1911
40sw in HK USPc
9mm in HK USPc, SIG 226

So I have no single favorite as yet, but it's sure hard to be 12 rounds of .40 in an HK USPc - and if you take away the heavy steel frame of a Sig 226 or 1911... then the USPc wins!

*I have yet to shoot a USPc 45 -- that could possibly win me over! ;)

[MaverickHK]

But there is a .50 GI, so why not that?

Because HK doesn't make one! ;)

[orfeo]

Hey HK, how about making me a Mark 23 style pistol that holds say, six rounds of 50 BMG?!! :)

Then no one could argue about which HK pistol has the most knockdown power. . .

[vanderson]

Hey HK, how about making me a Mark 23 style pistol that holds say, six rounds of 50 BMG?!! :)

Then no one could argue about which HK pistol has the most knockdown power. . .

I think you mean 50 AE :) BMG is a machine gun round.

[kingofwylietx]

I have to agree with the .45acp crowd on preferred caliber.

[DevDog]

9mmx19 Fun to shoot and cost effective.

[AviatorDave]

I think you mean 50 AE :) BMG is a machine gun round.

Yeah, but then people could still argue. There's always the .500 S&W Magnum.

But a 50 BMG? Then nobody would argue.

[orfeo]

I think you mean 50 AE :) BMG is a machine gun round.

Yes, 50 BMG as in 50 cal Browning Machine Gun! :)

One ass-kickin' round right there boy. . .

[orfeo]

Yeah, but then people could still argue. There's always the .500 S&W Magnum.

But a 50 BMG? Then nobody would argue.

:) Exactly! :)

[ltbarber]

HK could call it the Mark24!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kingofwylietx]

Yes, 50 BMG as in 50 cal Browning Machine Gun! :)

One ass-kickin' round right there boy. . .

I picture the guys at HK Germany reading our forum......shaking their heads muttering "crazy Americans". :87:

[dtheman]

The "mark 24" would probably kill the person operating it as opposed to the intended target.

[kiehtan]

9mm. Cheap and effective, as long as you hit what your aiming at.

[skorittnig]

Let me say, first off, that if I lived in a state that allowed me to legally carry- my answer would be different. However, my state stinks, and I'm only allowed to use my handguns for range shooting and IPSC. Because of this, i like the 9 mm for a couple of reasons:

1). its CHEAP
2). it is accurate (at close to medium range).
3). after a long day of shooting, it isn't punishing

If I were to carry, it would definitely be the .45 acp. However, the dictators in Madison don't allow concealed carry, or even handgun sales within the city.

[hkmike]

Love the 45acp, BUT Expensive to shoot with ammo prices these days. I SHOOT THE 9MM MUCH MORE! I don't think 9mm is a problem for defence with modern bullet technolgy I NOW I WOULDN'T WANT TO GET HIT WITH ANY 9MM ROUND FACTORY LOADED HOLLOW POINT OR NOT!

[bigghk702]

.45 acp 230gr jhp.........see a foe BANG.......no more foe

[bnsutton]

What caliber do HK users favor most and why?

The one on my hip or in my hand(45) because it will get the job done if needed.

[jepn30]

.45 ACP and then 9x19mm.
For defensive I prefer .45 cal +P 200 gr Gold Dot HPs and for 9mm I am running +P 124 gr Gold Dot HPs.

[Rana]

It really depends on the gun/cal. combo.

In .45 it is all about 1911's.

If we are talking "HK" then it is a P7 in 9mm.

[softmentor]

I picture the guys at HK Germany reading our forum......shaking their heads muttering "crazy Americans". :87:

yep. That would be us. US
::smiles his jolly smile::

[Ninjamaster]

9mm is a great round if you want the bullet to bounce off the target. This round is one of the great weaknesses of the HK system - particular the MP5. .45 ACP rules!

I went shooting with a buddy who had his Ruger 9mm out. He shot a hard metal surface resulting in the 9mm round bouncing back at him and hitting him in the shin. It didn't do any damage but still this one event proved to me that I will never buy a 9mm willingly. I put over 7k rounds through my 40C and never once had a deflection back at me, and that day I shot the same metal surface multiple times.

[Warlokke]

I've been an infantryman for the last 25 years and I don't like anything about the 5.56 or 9mm thought it looks like I am stuck with them for awhile. In keeping with the Rules for Gunfighting make mine .40 for pistol (though .45 is fine too) and 7.62 x 51 NATO for rifle. For CCW I really like the .40 USPc in MTAC holster.

[skorittnig]

I was hit by a .45ACP riccochet right square in the chest 2 years ago at an IPSC event (metal target stage). Scared the heck out of me, but only stung a little. The guy I was talking to (when it happened) told me a guy got hit in the forehead not long before that and had a nice cut.

[sfguard]

I was hit by a .45ACP riccochet right square in the chest 2 years ago at an IPSC event (metal target stage). Scared the heck out of me, but only stung a little. The guy I was talking to (when it happened) told me a guy got hit in the forehead not long before that and had a nice cut.

I had to get frag pulled out of my leg one time from a riccochet. That one hurt got me on the shin.

[ydaho]

45 acp for pistols and 6.5 X 55 for rifles.

[Chris Sanchez]

I'm 99.9% sure that the .40sw operates at lower pressure's than the 9mm.

What can a 124gr 9mm do that a 135gr .40sw cant?

147gr 9mm vs. 155gr .40sw?

Your also going to have a hard time convincing me that a +p 9mm puts less wear on a pistol than a standard .40sw. Considering that's the only way a 9mm can approach .40sw energy wise, that's what you should be comparing.

Not to mention, .40sw leaves a bigger hole.

Dont take this the wrong way, I really like 9mm, but I get a little irk'd when people say there's no need for the .40sw. It's the most versatile load, and depending on whether you favor light and fast or heavy and slow there's a load for you. It certainly has it's place, and it's filled that niche nicely.

*edit*

SAAMI pressures;

9mm - 35,000
9mm+p - 38,500
.40sw - 35,000


Regarding the 9mm 124gr vs. .40S&W 135gr:

I really dont see the point of comparing the two. If the purpose is for casual/competitive shooting you have a point. But I am talking on a defense perspective. No police agency that I am aware adapted the .40 135gr JHP while 9mm 124gr JHP has been adapted by many agencies.

If you are type who relies handgun ammo for defense, you might have heard about the calibraged gelatin test. 135gr .40S&W JHP is not even considered as top choices for defense, therefore, you will notice that many agencies who adapted such caliber go either to the 165gr or to 180gr bullet weight. To the experts, this bullet weights yield acceptable performance of various tests whether bare gelatin, clothed gelatin, or common urban barriers such as automotive windshild glass and wall boards. Take note also that when using 180gr .40sw, there are kaboom cases that had been documented in various websites, which includes, those documented by CHP.

The same argument goes with the 9mm 147gr JHP vs .40SW 155gr. You will have an extremely hard time convince me they have the same performance in properly calibrated gelatin. The former expands and penetrates deep, the latter also expands but usually have shallow penetration. Bigger hole? Talking about 0.05-inch diameter difference, that is not the whole equation of choosing the defense ammo. Even if the FBI has stipulated that 12-inch penetration in properly calibrated gelatin is considered adequate, I still go for the 15-inch. Why? If live bad humans are the target, I have to consider also large muscles, bones, and other organs. The most consequential point in incapacitation using a service caliber bullet (9mm, .45acp... ok .40sw) is either hitting the CNS or hitting the spinal column/cord and break it. I am expecting you have read topics like this like the papers of Urey Patrick, Shawn Dodson, et.al.

As for the pressure I am talking, I did not consider the 135gr .40sw on the list, again talking on the perspective of defense, the latter bullet may have little use. I hope I clarify this. Dont worry, I am very used to lively discussions. As far as 135gr/155gr JHP goes, it usually expanded poorly in 4-layer denim test as compared to 165gr/180gr JHP. The earlier two bullet weights mentioned are irrelevant to me for defensive use, if I will ever get a .40sw pistol.

The .40sw may have filled a niche, but latter 9mm and .45acp JHP designs might have caught up and solve earlier design flaws that, from what I see, has already expired its need, but for die-hard fans of the said caliber, like you, it is very obvious that there is really a demand and frankly I have no unilateral decision-making power whatsoever to stop the production of such caliber, lol. Peace!

[dtheman]

Speaking of kb!'s .... http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/kb-notes.html.

It's about the .40 sw

[338LM]

.40 S&W for handgun

[Shakey]

My favorite HK caliber is whichever one is in my hands at the time. I only own 9mm, or .45 and like them both. As I get older the 9mm is easier on my arthritic wrists. That's getting to be more important as time goes by.

[spyder1439]

im a big fan of 357 sig. of course it is expensive as sin but it's like a 9mm on crack.

[Cadillac Johnson]

Regarding the 9mm 124gr vs. .40S&W 135gr:

I really dont see the point of comparing the two. If the purpose is for casual/competitive shooting you have a point. But I am talking on a defense perspective. No police agency that I am aware adapted the .40 135gr JHP while 9mm 124gr JHP has been adapted by many agencies.

If you are type who relies handgun ammo for defense, you might have heard about the calibraged gelatin test. 135gr .40S&W JHP is not even considered as top choices for defense, therefore, you will notice that many agencies who adapted such caliber go either to the 165gr or to 180gr bullet weight. To the experts, this bullet weights yield acceptable performance of various tests whether bare gelatin, clothed gelatin, or common urban barriers such as automotive windshild glass and wall boards. Take note also that when using 180gr .40sw, there are kaboom cases that had been documented in various websites, which includes, those documented by CHP.

The same argument goes with the 9mm 147gr JHP vs .40SW 155gr. You will have an extremely hard time convince me they have the same performance in properly calibrated gelatin. The former expands and penetrates deep, the latter also expands but usually have shallow penetration. Bigger hole? Talking about 0.05-inch diameter difference, that is not the whole equation of choosing the defense ammo. Even if the FBI has stipulated that 12-inch penetration in properly calibrated gelatin is considered adequate, I still go for the 15-inch. Why? If live bad humans are the target, I have to consider also large muscles, bones, and other organs. The most consequential point in incapacitation using a service caliber bullet (9mm, .45acp... ok .40sw) is either hitting the CNS or hitting the spinal column/cord and break it. I am expecting you have read topics like this like the papers of Urey Patrick, Shawn Dodson, et.al.

As for the pressure I am talking, I did not consider the 135gr .40sw on the list, again talking on the perspective of defense, the latter bullet may have little use. I hope I clarify this. Dont worry, I am very used to lively discussions. As far as 135gr/155gr JHP goes, it usually expanded poorly in 4-layer denim test as compared to 165gr/180gr JHP. The earlier two bullet weights mentioned are irrelevant to me for defensive use, if I will ever get a .40sw pistol.

The .40sw may have filled a niche, but latter 9mm and .45acp JHP designs might have caught up and solve earlier design flaws that, from what I see, has already expired its need, but for die-hard fans of the said caliber, like you, it is very obvious that there is really a demand and frankly I have no unilateral decision-making power whatsoever to stop the production of such caliber, lol. Peace!

As far as the 135gr .40sw, I agree, it is a poor choice for the .40sw. I brought it up, just for the fact that it was said that the .40 was a useless round. The .40sw will throw a 135gr bullet faster than a 124gr 9mm. As a defense round, it's similar to the 90gr 9mm. Impressive on paper, but not much else. I brought it up to show the .40sw's versatility.

I guess what it comes down to is this; The 147gr 9mm is out performed by the 124gr 9mm consistantly. When you throw out the heaviest 9mm and the lightest .45acp rounds. That leaves a large range of bullet weights, between the 9mm and .45acp.

The 155gr - 165gr weights are where the .40sw really shines IMO. I tend to favor light and fast to heavy and slow. I feel you get the best compromise between weight, speed, and size with 155-165gr bullets at 1150-1200ft/sec or so. When you start to get up to 180gr, your probly better off getting a .45, and if you want lighter than 155gr, your better off getting a 9mm.

There's kaboom cases with every round. The .40sw is not loaded any hotter than the 9mm. Most LEO's carry +p 9mm, which is run at roughly 3500psi higher. Also, I'd be willing to bet most of those kaboom's where with Glocks. Not having a fully supported chamber leaves much to be desired when dealing with the higher pressure rounds; 9mm, 9mm +p, .357sig, .40sw. That's the primary reason I wont buy once fired brass for the .40sw. I dont want anything that was fired in a Glock.

You could find kaboom cases to back up an arguement for and against any round. There's too many variables involved to simply blame the round. If a 9mm pistol blows up, does that mean that 9mm pistols have a tendency to go kaboom? Of course not, why is the .40sw any different?

[kc135]

Growing up I shot 45 with my dad often, then some 357 magnum and eventually a couple rounds of 44 magnum. But mostly 45 acp, it became the norm for me. back then there was no such thing as 40 cal S&W

fast forward to present day: I spent two years researching and shooting everything I could get my hands on and found the perfect CCW pistol for me.
An HK P2000 but it was not offered in 45 acp I was heart broken.

I got the 40 cal, and I love it!!!!
next will be HK 45 if they ever make it over here.
and I'll eventually get a 9mm cause I've never had one.

I'm really enjoying the 40 cal but 45 acp has a nostalgic quality for me.
it reminds me of the old man

[SauceNJ]

Since everyone agrees that in a real shootout, a pistol isn't the best weapon for the job, why hasn't anyone considered an FN 5.7 - it's a rifle type round, creates a large wound cavity due to the tumbling effect, holds a piss load of ammo, is small and light enough for carry, and has basically no recoil. Why hasn't anyone considered that? I wonder what has more "stopping power" - a .45 fmj or a 5.7mm???

[Iceman505]

Because HK doesn't make a 5.7! J/K. IMO a 5.7 is too much like a rimfire, ie the .22 mag. or .17 HMR. Besides, it seems most everyone here prefer larger dia. bullets over smaller ones, regardless of velocity.

[SauceNJ]

Well, what creates more 'stopping power' - a large bullet or a tumbling high velocity bullet? Technically, a .223 is a very small diameter round but I'm sure anyone would take an ar 15 over a .45 for stopping an assailant right? I don't get ballistics at all - it seems nobody really knows anything.

[dtheman]

The higher velocity round like a .223/5.56 creates a large wound cavity, because of its speed...just like a jet is followed by a sonic boom/air pocket, so is the higher velocity round. After the bullet hits its target and enters so does the trailing air pocket/ "sonic boom". This air pocket tears through the target creating the larger wound cavity (i.e. lots of internal damage and bleeding). Depending on the hit location it can kill instantly, within a few minutes or a little longer (or not at all if you're a terrible shot). Hand gun rounds that don't travel as fast like the .45 can be better explained by comparing the hit to that of a baseball bat. The round doesn't rip through as effortlessly as the rifle round, so there is much more immediate energy released onto the target, "knockdown power". This "knockdown" power causes the overall system shock and stress to the target, again depending on the hit location it can kill instantly, take longer or not at all.

The "knockdown power" at close range is much more desirable because it is more likely to end the fight asap. The effects of the rifle round will not always knock someone on their ass but will kill them. IMO, The distance afforded by the rifle round makes it better for that reason and use. The rifle round for distance and offensive shots, the sub gun (i.e. UMP .45) for medium to close range offensive indoors and a .45 pistol for self defense purposes

I am explaining this to the best of my knowledge and ability, so if you disagree don't rip into me.

[SauceNJ]

actually, I thought that was pretty damn good.

[vanderson]

The higher velocity round like a .223/5.56 creates a large wound cavity, because of its speed...just like a jet is followed by a sonic boom/air pocket, so is the higher velocity round. After the bullet hits its target and enters so does the trailing air pocket/ "sonic boom". This air pocket tears through the target creating the larger wound cavity (i.e. lots of internal damage and bleeding). Depending on the hit location it can kill instantly, within a few minutes or a little longer (or not at all if you're a terrible shot). Hand gun rounds that don't travel as fast like the .45 can be better explained by comparing the hit to that of a baseball bat. The round doesn't rip through as effortlessly as the rifle round, so there is much more immediate energy released onto the target, "knockdown power". This "knockdown" power causes the overall system shock and stress to the target, again depending on the hit location it can kill instantly, take longer or not at all.

The "knockdown power" at close range is much more desirable because it is more likely to end the fight asap. The effects of the rifle round will not always knock someone on their ass but will kill them. IMO, The distance afforded by the rifle round makes it better for that reason and use. The rifle round for distance and offensive shots, the sub gun (i.e. UMP .45) for medium to close range offensive indoors and a .45 pistol for self defense purposes

I am explaining this to the best of my knowledge and ability, so if you disagree don't rip into me.

Someone took physics class :) Very well put!

[.45ACP]

Isn't the 5.7 round supposed to have very weak ballistic numbers? From what I've read the only thing it does is poke very tiny holes through some types of body armor.

[AviatorDave]

The higher velocity round like a .223/5.56 creates a large wound cavity, because of its speed...just like a jet is followed by a sonic boom/air pocket, so is the higher velocity round. After the bullet hits its target and enters so does the trailing air pocket/ "sonic boom". This air pocket tears through the target creating the larger wound cavity (i.e. lots of internal damage and bleeding). Depending on the hit location it can kill instantly, within a few minutes or a little longer (or not at all if you're a terrible shot). Hand gun rounds that don't travel as fast like the .45 can be better explained by comparing the hit to that of a baseball bat. The round doesn't rip through as effortlessly as the rifle round, so there is much more immediate energy released onto the target, "knockdown power". This "knockdown" power causes the overall system shock and stress to the target, again depending on the hit location it can kill instantly, take longer or not at all.

The "knockdown power" at close range is much more desirable because it is more likely to end the fight asap. The effects of the rifle round will not always knock someone on their ass but will kill them. IMO, The distance afforded by the rifle round makes it better for that reason and use. The rifle round for distance and offensive shots, the sub gun (i.e. UMP .45) for medium to close range offensive indoors and a .45 pistol for self defense purposes

I am explaining this to the best of my knowledge and ability, so if you disagree don't rip into me.

I think you did fine. I've read a lot recently that disagrees with it, but a lot that agrees as well. My big disagreement is not with your explanation, but with the whole "energy release" theory all together. Ever seen one of those guys at a circus get shot with a cannon ball in the stomach? That is much more energy than a .45 can come close to, yet they absorb it all and aren't even injured. A 185 gr .45 has only 1/3 the energy of a 60 grain .223 round, yet somehow the .45 has a reputation of having more "knockdown" power.

A bullet can only cause mechanical damage. Sure, it might disrupt the body's electrical (CNS) system, but it does it through mechanical means - it punches a hole in something necessary.

If you read any of the recent studies of terminal ballistics in actual "bullet recipients", they all will point to the fact that what really "stops" an individual is when the bullet passes through a major artery or the heart (which can still leave up to 30 seconds of fight in them), or the brain (again, depending on which part is damaged, can still take some time), or the spinal cord, which is about the only true instant stop.

What gives a .45 its somewhat deserved reputation is that it has a better chance of passing through barriers, like arms, ribs, sternum, or other bones, and into something necessary like the heart, brain, or spinal cord.

Rifle rounds have many times the energy mainly due to much higher velocities, and cause far more damage for 2 reasons - first, because they have much greater penetration power so have a much better chance of punching a hole in something necessary, and secondly because they really do expand, unlike even many hollow point handgun rounds, that don't expand at all because they're not moving fast enough.

If you're interested in it, find one of the books that take actual cadaver studies. The results don't necessarily coincide with ballistic gelatin tests in many cases.

[JLStorm]

Dont forget the differences between a temporary and perminent wound cavity. Its the perminent cavity that seems to make the most difference, that is where mass seems to overpower speed for the most part, but of course there are always variables and deviations.

[Mykaln]

I like 9mm for the cost and availability. When it comes to protection, if a bad guy has the choice of being shot by a 9mm or 45acp, he'll choose neither.

[reaper8154]

I think you did fine. I've read a lot recently that disagrees with it, but a lot that agrees as well. My big disagreement is not with your explanation, but with the whole "energy release" theory all together. Ever seen one of those guys at a circus get shot with a cannon ball in the stomach? That is much more energy than a .45 can come close to, yet they absorb it all and aren't even injured. A 185 gr .45 has only 1/3 the energy of a 60 grain .223 round, yet somehow the .45 has a reputation of having more "knockdown" power.

A bullet can only cause mechanical damage. Sure, it might disrupt the body's electrical (CNS) system, but it does it through mechanical means - it punches a hole in something necessary.

If you read any of the recent studies of terminal ballistics in actual "bullet recipients", they all will point to the fact that what really "stops" an individual is when the bullet passes through a major artery or the heart (which can still leave up to 30 seconds of fight in them), or the brain (again, depending on which part is damaged, can still take some time), or the spinal cord, which is about the only true instant stop.

What gives a .45 its somewhat deserved reputation is that it has a better chance of passing through barriers, like arms, ribs, sternum, or other bones, and into something necessary like the heart, brain, or spinal cord.

Rifle rounds have many times the energy mainly due to much higher velocities, and cause far more damage for 2 reasons - first, because they have much greater penetration power so have a much better chance of punching a hole in something necessary, and secondly because they really do expand, unlike even many hollow point handgun rounds, that don't expand at all because they're not moving fast enough.

If you're interested in it, find one of the books that take actual cadaver studies. The results don't necessarily coincide with ballistic gelatin tests in many cases.

dtheman was right in saying rifle rounds do more damage because of the velocity the round travels at. The rifle round will rip the tissue it travels though, but a pistol round travels slow enough to allow the tissue to stretch as it passes through. Thats why people complain about the 5.56 round out of a short barrel only poking small holes in people at long distance. There is just not enough velocity to do alot of damage.

There is no way an ss109 round expands more than a good .45 hollow point, but will leave a nastier wound cavity due to it traveling 2000 fps faster.

[dtheman]

I think you did fine. I've read a lot recently that disagrees with it, but a lot that agrees as well. My big disagreement is not with your explanation, but with the whole "energy release" theory all together. Ever seen one of those guys at a circus get shot with a cannon ball in the stomach? That is much more energy than a .45 can come close to, yet they absorb it all and aren't even injured. A 185 gr .45 has only 1/3 the energy of a 60 grain .223 round, yet somehow the .45 has a reputation of having more "knockdown" power.

A bullet can only cause mechanical damage. Sure, it might disrupt the body's electrical (CNS) system, but it does it through mechanical means - it punches a hole in something necessary.

If you read any of the recent studies of terminal ballistics in actual "bullet recipients", they all will point to the fact that what really "stops" an individual is when the bullet passes through a major artery or the heart (which can still leave up to 30 seconds of fight in them), or the brain (again, depending on which part is damaged, can still take some time), or the spinal cord, which is about the only true instant stop.

What gives a .45 its somewhat deserved reputation is that it has a better chance of passing through barriers, like arms, ribs, sternum, or other bones, and into something necessary like the heart, brain, or spinal cord.

Rifle rounds have many times the energy mainly due to much higher velocities, and cause far more damage for 2 reasons - first, because they have much greater penetration power so have a much better chance of punching a hole in something necessary, and secondly because they really do expand, unlike even many hollow point handgun rounds, that don't expand at all because they're not moving fast enough.

If you're interested in it, find one of the books that take actual cadaver studies. The results don't necessarily coincide with ballistic gelatin tests in many cases.

Those cannon balls are not real (made of lighter material or hollowed out)/ not being launched at high velocity. A real cannon ball with combat powder charges would blow a man into 5 pieces if it hit him in the stomach.

I stated that the .45 has more knockdown power than the rifle round.

[Baldy]

For a handgun, my favorite is .45 ACP.

[dtheman]

dtheman was right in saying rifle rounds do more damage because of the velocity the round travels at. The rifle round will rip the tissue it travels though, but a pistol round travels slow enough to allow the tissue to stretch as it passes through. Thats why people complain about the 5.56 round out of a short barrel only poking small holes in people at long distance. There is just not enough velocity to do alot of damage.

There is no way an ss109 round expands more than a good .45 hollow point, but will leave a nastier wound cavity due to it traveling 2000 fps faster.

Thats the reasoning behind those rounds, FN 5.7 and the HK 4.6(not sure size), is only for CT work and situations involving body armor, a run and gun if you will. A vehicle operator weapon with high penetration of armor and velocity for the greater wound cavity. One thing about the nastier wound cavity, while it may not kill people as fast as a .45 it creates a "Full Metal Jacket" type of situation. The guy is wounded but still moving, two of his buddies have to stop fighting and grab him and pull him away. All this lessens the chance of the bad guys winning, and anyone hit in the torso or head will not make it in the long run.

[SauceNJ]

So..... in other words... The rifle round has more stopping power because of the larger wound... wait, wait... the .45 goes through bones... and... the... oh yeah, the sonic boom creates the knockdown power but... the hollowed out cannon balls knock down but dont injure... eh... hmmm..... I think the answer is there is no answer. If there was, whatever the best caliber was, everyone would use.

What I find hard to believe is that after all this time - after all these discussions - after U.S. LE and Military complaining about the effectiveness of the 9mm while the rest of the world loves it - there haven't been enough ballistic studies done to put this bitch to rest?

For me... if there's any question as to whether the 9mm is enough - then it's not enough. And with capacity restrictions these days, the difference between 12rds and 15rds is negligible - especially when the 12 rounds are bigger. As for these new rifle type rounds, I'm under the impression that they don't have much civilian use - body armor is not much of a problem in most home invasions. So I think that answers it for me. Then again... If the 9mm round is so insufficient, how come Sergeant Riggs of the 90's action smash hit (and Beretta commercial) "Lethal Weapon" killed so many bad guys with it? If it's good enough for the rest of the world's soldiers, (and good enough for Mel), maybe it's good enough for us. If you guys have any ballistics tests (in layman's English) on a link somewhere, please post it. Remember, the 9mm travels at a substantially higher velocity than the .45 - and velocity causes wind to enter... I mean sonic boom with... with the... you see, because of the penetration of... well, you get the point.

[AviatorDave]

Those cannon balls are not real (made of lighter material or hollowed out)/ not being launched at high velocity. A real cannon ball with combat powder charges would blow a man into 5 pieces if it hit him in the stomach.

I stated that the .45 has more knockdown power than the rifle round.

I didn't say it was a real cannon ball with combat powder charges. I was comparing it to a 16 pound bowling ball travelling at 27 mph. It has roughly the same kinetic energy as a 45 round. But it doesn't matter. The point is that, and this comes from forensics wound experts, energy dump doesn't kill you. Holes in organs does.

[N6ATF]

1. Don't bring up movies where fake firearms use is the standard.
2. AFAIK, the lowest semi-auto capacity civilians are allowed to have amongst the 50 states (DC is not a state) are CA's 10+1 rounds. So if that many aren't good enough for you to stop the threat, you've got a bigger problem than figuring out which caliber has the best stopping power.

[AviatorDave]

So..... in other words... The rifle round has more stopping power because of the larger wound... wait, wait... the .45 goes through bones... and... the... oh yeah, the sonic boom creates the knockdown power but... the hollowed out cannon balls knock down but dont injure... eh... hmmm..... I think the answer is there is no answer. If there was, whatever the best caliber was, everyone would use.

What I find hard to believe is that after all this time - after all these discussions - after U.S. LE and Military complaining about the effectiveness of the 9mm while the rest of the world loves it - there haven't been enough ballistic studies done to put this bitch to rest?



There are plenty of studies of terminal ballistics on real shootees. The end result is always that holes in organs stops an assailant, temporary cavities don't. Even permanent cavities in the wrong spot won't, at least, not fast enough.

The big point is that handguns of any caliber are not very effective weapons if your foe is highly motivated. Unless the attacker gives up, or you happen to make a hit in a critical area (with CNS being the only true instant stop), and handgun is really only good to give you time to get to your bigger guns. And if an attacker is within 20 feet of you and wants to kill you and doesn't care if they die, I don't care what caliber you shoot, unless you hit the spine or base of the brain, they can still kill you. Sure, they may die in the next 30 seconds, but that's more than enought time to mortally wound you as well.

The reason it continues to be a debate is that there are variables in any given situation that will tilt the preference to any given round. In one instance, you may be shooting through a wall or other obstacles, making a 45 most desireable. In another, like a sustained shootout where both parties have cover, or there are multiple targets, the higher capacity of a 9mm may have the advantage. Then there are of course shooter skill differences - you may be much better with one caliber than another.

This debate will continue ad infinitum.

[JLStorm]

So..... in other words... The rifle round has more stopping power because of the larger wound... wait, wait... the .45 goes through bones... and... the... oh yeah, the sonic boom creates the knockdown power but... the hollowed out cannon balls knock down but dont injure... eh... hmmm..... I think the answer is there is no answer. If there was, whatever the best caliber was, everyone would use.

What I find hard to believe is that after all this time - after all these discussions - after U.S. LE and Military complaining about the effectiveness of the 9mm while the rest of the world loves it - there haven't been enough ballistic studies done to put this bitch to rest?

For me... if there's any question as to whether the 9mm is enough - then it's not enough. And with capacity restrictions these days, the difference between 12rds and 15rds is negligible - especially when the 12 rounds are bigger. As for these new rifle type rounds, I'm under the impression that they don't have much civilian use - body armor is not much of a problem in most home invasions. So I think that answers it for me. Then again... If the 9mm round is so insufficient, how come Sergeant Riggs of the 90's action smash hit (and Beretta commercial) "Lethal Weapon" killed so many bad guys with it? If it's good enough for the rest of the world's soldiers, (and good enough for Mel), maybe it's good enough for us. If you guys have any ballistics tests (in layman's English) on a link somewhere, please post it. Remember, the 9mm travels at a substantially higher velocity than the .45 - and velocity causes wind to enter... I mean sonic boom with... with the... you see, because of the penetration of... well, you get the point.


It sounds like you need to read about it yourself in detail. There are a ton of rather interesting reports bt police departments, FBI, independent testor, ammo manufacturers. You will need to understand the terminology first though. The basic idea is identifying the temporary and permanent wound cavities and their effects and what causes each.

Once you have looked at all the rounds you can then compare each round for different situations, ballistic gel, denim, water, wood, brick, windshield glass, etc, etc. There is no best all purpose round, but there is generally a best round for an individual and how much you can control different recoil at different speeds.

If there was any clear cut winner everyone would use it, and if any round really sucked no one would use it...everything in the middle is a tough call. A lot has to do with the belief in expansion, as well as the knowledge hat EFMJ, HP, and bonded ammo dont always expand and while heavier bullets dont shrink, they also dont travel as fast, and dont often have as flat a trajectory. Again, much of it has to do with personal choice, faith in a given round, and specific situations. If you really want to make the best decision for yourself you owe it to yourself to learn the terminology and study the reports. Also, another decision on caliber can be weapon size and how heavy it is over a full day of carry...tons of variables..if you want a concrete answer...you are never goind to find it...and if you do, there will be a conflicting report that probably says the opposite.

[AviatorDave]

Those cannon balls are not real (made of lighter material or hollowed out)/ not being launched at high velocity. A real cannon ball with combat powder charges would blow a man into 5 pieces if it hit him in the stomach.

I stated that the .45 has more knockdown power than the rifle round.

Did you reverse that last sentence? The .45 has more "knockdown power" than the rifle round? I'm guessing you must have.

[SauceNJ]

Wait a second... when shooting "through a wall or other obstacles" a .45 is better? I was under the impression that the .45 was a large, slow moving bullet. To go through glass, walls, etc, I would assume that you need a high velocity, smaller round that will keep it's trajectory and speed enough to wound someone behind barriers. It's this reason that most local and federal LE agencies favor the .40S&W. It's big enough to hurt but hot enough to go through stuff like windows and car doors. Am I wrong about this?

[AviatorDave]

Wait a second... when shooting "through a wall or other obstacles" a .45 is better? I was under the impression that the .45 was a large, slow moving bullet. To go through glass, walls, etc, I would assume that you need a high velocity, smaller round that will keep it's trajectory and speed enough to wound someone behind barriers. It's this reason that most local and federal LE agencies favor the .40S&W. It's big enough to hurt but hot enough to go through stuff like windows and car doors. Am I wrong about this?

Yes. All centerfire handgun bullets will go right through windows and car doors. see www.theboxotruth.com (http://www.theboxotruth.com) for test on actual cars.

As for the myths about bullet temporary cavities and the knockdown power fable, see http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf.

It's from the FBI training center. It's not the end-all-be-all study in terminal ballistics, but it is based on real wounds, specifically, the Wound Ballistics Workshop. If you want, skip to page 16 for the conclusion. I even went through a long time ago and read all of the sources that I could manage to find, they go into much greater detail.

[Reoze]

.45 in my opinion would be better for shooting through objects such as windows doors etc. Mainly due to the fact that many of the higher velocity rounds also have the tendancy to fragment while being "disturbed", IE - Puncturing through a relatively hard layer of glass.

Another reason is although a .45 is a slower bullet it has almost 1/3 more momentum than a 9mm.

Going by P=MV
230g .45 x 850 FPS = about 195500
115g 9mm x 1180 FPS = about 135700

[Iceman505]

But isn't over-penetration an issue, like say if you had to shoot an intruder in your house? Sure a .223 would put someone down quickly, but the bullet could still pass through to who knows where, assuming a FMJ was used. But like it was said earlier, it all depends on the situation and the shooter. As for me, I prefer shot placement.

[mydogsnameisruger]

Well, my choice is .45 acp. in an HK

I have lusted after a HK USP 45 ever since I started buying guns and Finally got one :53:

But, my favorite cartridge is the .357sig. It's loud, fast, and fun!:83:

[SauceNJ]

Good links Aviator. That's some pretty clear evidence. So I guess the advice "shoot the biggest thing you can handle accurately" is pretty right on.

[Richard S]

.45 ACP. Old habits are hard to break.

[Reoze]

But isn't over-penetration an issue, like say if you had to shoot an intruder in your house? Sure a .223 would put someone down quickly, but the bullet could still pass through to who knows where, assuming a FMJ was used. But like it was said earlier, it all depends on the situation and the shooter. As for me, I prefer shot placement.

If you're worried about over penetration than grab a 12 gauge and load #1 buck in it. Can't really go wrong with that.

[Cadillac Johnson]

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z63/Frenchy4g63/handgungelcomparisonzc7.jpg

Draw your own conclusions.

[SauceNJ]

Honestly, I don't see a huge difference at all - yes, the .45 seems to do more damage than the 9mm but the .40 and .357 seem to do pretty close to the same damage of the .45. What's the advantage to a higher velocity round like a .40 or better yet, .357? I would guess that the secret service is probably using what they believe to be the best round for their sidearm - and they need to be sure it's the best - moreso than any other federal agency or LE organization. And they use the .357 sig. Why?

[USMCMP5A3]

I like them all.
9MM is cheap and with the right loading downright devastating. It is also friendly to my wallet.

.40 is one hell of a man stopper and has a very large following in US law enforcement and my safe.

.45 is without a doubt one of the most versatile and effective rounds out there.
Super penetration through almost anything and even if a vest is worn the impact from a 230 grain .45 round is going to bring any zombie to their knees
Most of my collection is based on this caliber

.357 Sig round mirrors the .357 Magnum in performance. Based on the FBI's database pertaining to one shot man stopping and overall confirmed bad guy stopping, the .357 Mag takes the #1 spot. So if I can carry a pistol that can hold 10 + rounds of this type of stopping power, my choice leans towards the .357 Sig. Several of my pistols are chambered for this round and it will never leave me guessing if it will save my life or my families lives. I just hope it picks up momentum to help bring ammo cost down. It has been around for about ten years and has not picked up a ton steam as of yet so more than likely it never will. But it is a fit for my USP Compact!!!

Great pic Caddy J

[pilotdane]

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z63/Frenchy4g63/handgungelcomparisonzc7.jpg

Draw your own conclusions.

The jell pictures really shows how similar and effective the major modern cartridges are. You may prefer red cars and I prefer blue cars but they both can get you to work if you know how to drive.

[Tactical Shooter]

9mm does not have the penetration of rounds like the .45 ACP. It is a weak bullet that was not made for zombie hunting.

[Tactical Shooter]

Which part? The inherent weakness of the 9mm or the fact that the HK system, particularly the MP5, is built on a poor bullet choice? Don't you think HK would have sold and done better in the USA if the MP5 had been made with .45ACP from the start?

[Tactical Shooter]

Well, what creates more 'stopping power' - a large bullet or a tumbling high velocity bullet? Technically, a .223 is a very small diameter round but I'm sure anyone would take an ar 15 over a .45 for stopping an assailant right? I don't get ballistics at all - it seems nobody really knows anything.

I am loving this discussion! I have never liked the term "stopping power" because it is inherently undefined. A baseball bat has more stopping power than a bullet. Generally, I think of stopping power as kinetic energy (FPS) and mass but even that is open to debate. HP vs. Jacketed can impact the "stopping power" equation also.

[H&K 4 LIFE]

I'm with Aviator Dave all the way on this one. Just read the conclusion to the "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness " report by the FBI. Everything AD is saying is right on point. Temporary cavity does not stop. Kenetic energy does not stop. Only penetration of vital organs will cause an immediate stop. Penetrate the brain and it's game over. The probability of penetrating vital organs goes up with larger bullets, but if the bullet does not hit the correct spot then it will still fail to stop no matter how heavy it is. Also, it states that expansion is a great thing... if it happens. Do not rely on expansion to stop because it does not happen often enough to count on.

"Handgun bullets expand in the human target only 60-70% of the time at best. Damage to the hollow point by hitting bone, glass, or other intervening obstacles can prevent expansion. Clothing fibers can wrap the nose of the bullet in a cocoon like manner and prevent expansion. Insufficient impact velocity caused by short barrels and/or longer range will prevent expansion, as will simple manufacturing variations. Expansion must never be the basis for bullet selection, but considered a bonus when, and if, it occurs."- excerpt from "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness "

Also, I looked high and low for the ballistics gel comparison chart that two of you guys posted in this thread. I have seen it before and I think that says it all right there. I'll stick with my "weak" 9mm and my "all too snappy" .40S&W.

[CaliTheKid]

I carry a P2000 in 9mm for work. I also have a USPc in .45 that I can carry. I do a lot of combat course shooting and no matter how hard I practice I always finish the courses with better scores with my 9mm. Puttting everything on the scales the 9mm was a better choice for me.

[AviatorDave]

I am loving this discussion! I have never liked the term "stopping power" because it is inherently undefined. A baseball bat has more stopping power than a bullet. Generally, I think of stopping power as kinetic energy (FPS) and mass but even that is open to debate. HP vs. Jacketed can impact the "stopping power" equation also.

Stopping power is a function of shot placement primarily, and penetration secondarily. Put one through the brain, spinal cord, or heart, and the BG is stopped, but the heart may take 15 to 30 seconds. Put one anywhere else, and the BG only stops if they decide to. Very similar to the bat in that way - whack on the legs, arms, etc. and you will just injure and generally piss them off. But some white ash to the head is a lot better at stopping than elsewhere.

Kinetic energy is not FPS. KE is .5 x mass x fps x fps. Which means that KE increases as the square of FPS, but linearly with increase in mass. (Double the mass = double the KE, double the velocity = square the KE)

But if you look at actual ballistics tests (like the great pic of all the bullets in ballistic gel) - HP vs Jacketed doesn't do much of anything in handguns, because they are not travelling fast enough for reliable expansion. Besides that, ballistic gel isn't even that good of a representation of the human body, unless maybe you shoot Fat Albert through the Dunlap or something. I'll see if I can find it again, I had a site with tests of shooting slabs of spare ribs and steak. The bullets performed a lot differently than in gelatin.

[M14Jackson]

Great photos Cadillac.

Makes me like my .357/.40 conversion all the more.

[JLStorm]

One of the reasons I like 45 is that it covers more area inside the arget even , and the surface area the more chance of it hitting something vital and stopping an attacker. I dont know how many of you have actually seen the width of a spinal cord, but it is not big, same with a heart, if you are shooting com, you definitely want a better chance at hitting the target. Of course the trade off with smaler rounds is that you can carry more of them., but if you compare the size of a 40 or 9 or 357 wity a 45, they REALLY need to expand or the shooter REALLY needs to be accurate.

Anyway, its all a compeomise one way or another...so pick your poison and train as much as possible...there are no magic answers in the caliber debate.

[SauceNJ]

There's no real reply- fact is, the bigger the bullet, the. Etter. But placement is key. So if you can shoot better with a 9mm than you can with a 45. then your decision is made. The only question is really what you shoot better. Look, in all 'world is coming to an end' scenarios we imagine we try to pick the best caliber possible but the truth is- unless you've got a 12 guage and a rifle, you're f*cked. For defense, shoot what you shoot fastest and most accurately. Sh*t!... Nobody wants to admit it but we all secretly wish for that chance to be the hero- to validate our countless hours of training - to save the mother f*cking day. But the truth is that very few of us will ever get that opportunity - if any! And in the bigger picture, that's a good thing probably. But if we ever do get that chance... That one shot at heroism - I guarantee you the size of our caliber WILL NOT get in the way. Shoot like a pro!!! Kill the bad guys!!! Aim small, miss small.

[JLStorm]

Sh*t!... Nobody wants to admit it but we all secretly wish for that chance to be the hero- to validate our countless hours of training - to save the mother f*cking day. But the truth is that very few of us will ever get that opportunity - if any! And in the bigger picture, that's a good thing probably. But if we ever do get that chance... That one shot at heroism

Thats a bad wish. The farther you stay away from that scenario the better off you will be physically and mentally, regardless of the outcome. Anyone that wants to save the day and be the hero is going to get their head clouded. Very dangerous thoughts.

[SauceNJ]

But honest thoughts for many... Just trying to be realistic.

[softmentor]

There's no real reply- fact is, the bigger the bullet, the. Etter. But placement is key. So if you can shoot better with a 9mm than you can with a 45. then your decision is made. The only question is really what you shoot better. Look, in all 'world is coming to an end' scenarios we imagine we try to pick the best caliber possible but the truth is- unless you've got a 12 guage and a rifle, you're f*cked. For defense, shoot what you shoot fastest and most accurately. Sh*t!... Nobody wants to admit it but we all secretly wish for that chance to be the hero- to validate our countless hours of training - to save the mother f*cking day. But the truth is that very few of us will ever get that opportunity - if any! And in the bigger picture, that's a good thing probably. But if we ever do get that chance... That one shot at heroism - I guarantee you the size of our caliber WILL NOT get in the way. Shoot like a pro!!! Kill the bad guys!!! Aim small, miss small.

Am I the only one who thinks that saucenj could make his point without the use of cuss words. Just using * doesn't make it any less unnecessary.
I for one do not "wish for that chance to be the hero". Most especially not for a foolish reason like "to validate our countless hours of training". I'm going to be direct and say that such a motivation denies the seriousness of such a situation and belittles how sad it is that there are bad people who do harm.
I am willing to take a stand and to defend myself and others, but I do not welcome having to do so. In fact, it would be glorious if it were never required again to have to stop evil in it's tracts.

[softmentor]

Thats a bad wish. The farther you stay away from that scenario the better off you will be physically and mentally, regardless of the outcome. Anyone that wants to save the day and be the hero is going to get their head clouded. Very dangerous thoughts.

I agree JLStorm.
and I'm glad to say that I think more people agree with you JLStorm by far, than with SauceNJ.

[TrunkMonkey]

I have a .45 on the nightstand, 9mm on the hip.

[MONEY]

The jell pictures really shows how similar and effective the major modern cartridges are. You may prefer red cars and I prefer blue cars but they both can get you to work if you know how to drive.

This chart has been on the internet for years so maybe a up to date test might prove differently with some of the newer ammo available but the chart clearly shows the 9mm has the smallest wound channel out of all of the rounds tested. There is nothing wrong with carring a 9mm for protection & I would feel safe caring one in a warm climate but I think the .40S&W & .45 will do a better job on heavily clothed bad guys & penatraiting car doors & glass thats why most Law enforcement agencies have dumped the 9mm. The bigger the hole the better & that is common sense but how much is really hard to tell.

[CZ-75]

This thread is way off topic.

Closing it due to lack of HK content.