HK P7 MADNESS!!!

[SauceNJ]

I've never understood the desirability of the P7. I don't have much information about it and was hoping you guys could fill me in on what makes it so fantastic. I understand the squeeze cock bit and I can understand it's value as a collectable as it appears they're no longer imported. But what makes it great as a firearm? And how large is it? Barrel Size is 4in but I've never seen one in person so the pictures may be deceiving. What would you compare it to size-wise - and lastly, how much do they go for? Thanks.

[Greg Bell]

1. Squeeze cocking. IMHO the safest gun for daily carry. The gun goes from perfectly safe to perfectly deadly in a split second. If you drop it you may have a heart attack because it might get scratched but you can rest assured it won't go off. This gun is incredibly fast.

2. Trigger pull. Thanks to the squeeze cocking system the gun is safely equipped with an excellent single action trigger pull. I've had die-hard partisans of every type of gun praise my P7's trigger.

3. Compact. Although it has full-size controls (no pinky hang), the gun is sized like a compact approaching a subcompact. It is much thinner than almost any handgun.(1.1-1.2 inches).

4. Full-size barrel. Despite this gun's compact size it has a full 4-inch barrel.

5. Fixed-barrel. This gun lacks the tilting barrel assembly of most other full-sized guns. This lends the gun exceptional accuracy. In combination with the aforementioned trigger, this barrel makes the P7 ultra-accurate.

6. Low recoil. This is debatable. I have always felt that this has the least recoil of any 9mm. Some disagree, most don't. This is likely result of the guns low bore/axis and gas system (although some say the gas system should have no effect).

7. Tough! This gun is CNC milled from a solid steel forging. The gun is so solid it could be used as a nasty set of brass knuckles in a pinch. Without picking one up it is hard to imagine how solid this little gun feels. When I had mine hardchromed the smith complained endlessly about how hard the P7 was to machine.

8. Excellent sight radius. Although the gun is short, HK maximized the sight radius by pushing the sights as far apart as practically possible.

9. Oddball manual of arms confuses bad guys and know it all buddies. There are many accounts of cops loosing their P7's to bad guys who were, in turn, unable to figure out the squeeze cocker. On the lighter side, a know it all at a local gunshop had just explained to all of his bad experiences with the P7 when I handed it to him only to watch him fumble around unable to cock it! Hilarious.

10. Chamber fluting allows the gun to function even if the extractor is broken. This feature really makes you think when you are trying to determine which gun you want to bet you life on (no offense, but this a much more serious advantage than being able to freeze the gun in a bucket of ice or whatever).

11. Easily childproofed. The P7's striker can be removed without tools (and without any other disassembly of the gun). The striker can be re-inserted into the gun in roughly 1 second. This could be a major consideration to those of us with small children and stupid friends.

12. Ambidextrous. With the exception of the slide catch and take down buttons, every model of the P7 is completely ambidextrous.

13. Ultra-fast magazine release. This has to be experienced to be understood. Rambo types complained about the PSP’s lack of rapid magazine release. HK, Germans that they are, decided to give them what they wanted—a magazine that ejects so fast and powerfully that they could be used as back-up projectiles in an emergency.

14. Ultra fast slide release. Simply squeeze the handle and the slide will be released.

15. 110 degree grip angle gives the gun natural pointability. 110 degree grip angle makes the gun point just like you finger.

16. Low profile slide. The P7’s low profile slide means that there is very little recoiling mass relative to the frame. This, along with the above mentioned 110-degree grip angle makes reacquiring targets a breeze with the P7.

[SauceNJ]

That was pretty thorough. So basically... best carry pistol ever. Makes sense now. So... why don't they make them anymore? You'd figure it would make sense to bring them back into production. Also, the nice ones are pricey but I've seen some Grade B ones selling at good prices. How much does it cost to refinish a gun like that?

[Mark71]

Greg said it all.
You need to fire one to truly understand how great the P7 is.

Go to Shore Shot Pistol Range in Lakewood NJ and rent one. The have some police trade in's that you can rent and try out.

http://www.shoreshotpistolrange.com/

[Greg Bell]

Sauce,

If you ever figure out what motivates H&K's marketing decisions you let us know! They are freaking harder to figure out than the moodiest woman wrapped in a calculus problem.

Honestly, HK is an engineering company that makes firearms. They are focused on military and police contracts, and the era of the P7 in that arena is over.

[Mark71]

Sauce,
They are focused on military and police contracts, and the era of the P7 in that arena is over.

It sure did have one hell of a run! Many people don't realize that the P7 has been out for 27 years.

[ripley16]

Here's a comparison pic with a Kahr K9, Walther P99c and a P2000SK. The P7 as you can see is quite compact.
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i186/ripley16/guns003.jpg

[H&K 4 LIFE]

Just shoot one and you will see the reasons why it is so great and sought after. Enough said. ;)

[mm6mm6]

And one more thing. Because on the "coolness" factor rating of 1 to 100, the HK P7 is 110.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q187/mm6mm6/P7003.jpg

[BarryP7M8]

That was pretty thorough. So basically... best carry pistol ever. Makes sense now. So... why don't they make them anymore?

Aside from police and military contracts, I don't think they ever sold that well for HK.
Sure, a lot of us here have them, but that's to be expected.
It's hard for most people to rationalize spending $1,000 on a P7 when a similar-sized 8+1 9mm like the S&W 3913 was running about half that. The Sig P225 and later P239 are in the same size/capacity class and were always a lot less than a P7.
Without shooting one, people have to assume there is little to be gained by spending twice the money.

Basically-
You have to shoot one to see.
But most have to buy one to get to shoot one.
And most people don't opt to do that.

Besides, they were scarce if you did want one. Since I learned of the P7's existence in 1981, I probably saw less than ten P7s in gunshops over the next 25 years. Shops don't want to sink a lot of money in stock that might not move easy, and people can't buy what they can't find.

[mtgrs737]

I only wish I could find an affordable P7 M13, then I would have a most excellent 9mm carry gun ever made. IMHO

[ondutyhk]

I work for a Department that still issues P7 M13s!!!! It will be a sad day when the glocks take over.

[LCSO264]

I work for a Department that still issues P7 M13s!!!! It will be a sad day when the glocks take over.

Cherish the time you have with your M13!!



Sauce, you really need to shoot one to fully appreciate what Greg outlined above...

[ripley16]

I work for a Department that still issues P7 M13s!!!! It will be a sad day when the glocks take over.

Interesting. Which department is that, if i may ask?

[SauceNJ]

So some of you guys actually carry and shoot this thing? I assumed you all keep them as safe queens. I'm gonna start looking into one.

[JDP7]

My M13 is packed daily. Never a safe queen, and after almost 10 years I wouldn't trust my life and safety to any other handgun. You must shoot one to appreciate it.

[BOBBY]

1. Squeeze cocking. IMHO the safest gun for daily carry. The gun goes from perfectly safe to perfectly deadly in a split second. If you drop it you may have a heart attack because it might get scratched but you can rest assured it won't go off. This gun is incredibly fast.

2. Trigger pull. Thanks to the squeeze cocking system the gun is safely equipped with an excellent single action trigger pull. I've had die-hard partisans of every type of gun praise my P7's trigger.

3. Compact. Although it has full-size controls (no pinky hang), the gun is sized like a compact approaching a subcompact. It is much thinner than almost any handgun.(1.1-1.2 inches).

4. Full-size barrel. Despite this gun's compact size it has a full 4-inch barrel.

5. Fixed-barrel. This gun lacks the tilting barrel assembly of most other full-sized guns. This lends the gun exceptional accuracy. In combination with the aforementioned trigger, this barrel makes the P7 ultra-accurate.

6. Low recoil. This is debatable. I have always felt that this has the least recoil of any 9mm. Some disagree, most don't. This is likely result of the guns low bore/axis and gas system (although some say the gas system should have no effect).

7. Tough! This gun is CNC milled from a solid steel forging. The gun is so solid it could be used as a nasty set of brass knuckles in a pinch. Without picking one up it is hard to imagine how solid this little gun feels. When I had mine hardchromed the smith complained endlessly about how hard the P7 was to machine.

8. Excellent sight radius. Although the gun is short, HK maximized the sight radius by pushing the sights as far apart as practically possible.

9. Oddball manual of arms confuses bad guys and know it all buddies. There are many accounts of cops loosing their P7's to bad guys who were, in turn, unable to figure out the squeeze cocker. On the lighter side, a know it all at a local gunshop had just explained to all of his bad experiences with the P7 when I handed it to him only to watch him fumble around unable to cock it! Hilarious.

10. Chamber fluting allows the gun to function even if the extractor is broken. This feature really makes you think when you are trying to determine which gun you want to bet you life on (no offense, but this a much more serious advantage than being able to freeze the gun in a bucket of ice or whatever).

11. Easily childproofed. The P7's striker can be removed without tools (and without any other disassembly of the gun). The striker can be re-inserted into the gun in roughly 1 second. This could be a major consideration to those of us with small children and stupid friends.

12. Ambidextrous. With the exception of the slide catch and take down buttons, every model of the P7 is completely ambidextrous.

13. Ultra-fast magazine release. This has to be experienced to be understood. Rambo types complained about the PSP’s lack of rapid magazine release. HK, Germans that they are, decided to give them what they wanted—a magazine that ejects so fast and powerfully that they could be used as back-up projectiles in an emergency.

14. Ultra fast slide release. Simply squeeze the handle and the slide will be released.

15. 110 degree grip angle gives the gun natural pointability. 110 degree grip angle makes the gun point just like you finger.

16. Low profile slide. The P7’s low profile slide means that there is very little recoiling mass relative to the frame. This, along with the above mentioned 110-degree grip angle makes reacquiring targets a breeze with the P7.

That pretty much sums it up. Just go get one! :)

[Zapfenstreich]

Best pistol ever. In every class I've ever taken, everyone looks down their noses at it, until they try it. Then everyone's a convert... until they hear the price. Then only the hardest of the hard-core will drop the big bucks to get it.

I'm no great shakes as a pistol shot, but I almost always place first or second in the end-of-day qualifications. It's not due to skill, it's due almost all to the gun. There's just no better gun for daily carry and high-stress use than a P7.

The thing that killed the P7 in the US market was the price and the lack of availability. I bought my M8 way back when they were $849 new (1989) and everyone I shot with thought I was a psycho for spending so much on a "little 9mm". It was the first one I ever saw in person, and it took me about 4.5 milliseconds to make the decision to buy it.

Simply put, it was the best gun purchase I ever made, or probably ever will. You know that old Tina Turner song "You're simply the best"? That about sums up the P7 as a PDW for concealed carry.

[dkk73]

So some of you guys actually carry and shoot this thing? ...

Uh, I bought a P7 (and a backup, shortly thereafter) specifically because it was so well-suited to safe and effective carry. Almost unique in many ways; Greg Bell summarized it well. Also really very very pleasant to shoot.

Plus, it reeks of quality when you handle and work with it, unlike a lot of recently-produced, mass-market crapola with go-fast styling and "special editions", etc. Good machinery speaks for itself when you use it or work with it.

Try one, you'll like it!

[gman1868]

Who makes carry holsters for them?

[AviatorDave]

I only wish I could find an affordable P7 M13, then I would have a most excellent 9mm carry gun ever made. IMHO

What do you consider "affordable"? I bought two of them several months ago for $1400 and $1450. The $1450 one could have passed for new in box, the $1400 only had bluing wear on the sharp edges of the slide and the backstrap.

[Dark Knight]

Here are TWO reasons not on the Pro's of owning a P7 list P7GURU Oh I mean Greg put together;)..
#1Get a really affordable PSP from cdnn investments still under $700 for a top of the line grade A....
#2 Get it hard chromed by Virgil Tripp from Tripp Research .....

On Top of That here is the flip side.......

"THE Con's of the P7

1. The gun gets uncomfortably hot after 60 (or so) rapid shots. More of a training problem than a "real world" consideration.

2. Finish lacks durability. Blued finish wears quickly and is very little protection against corrosion.

3. Very expensive. At over $1000, this gun is out of the range of many buyers.

4. The gun's design is such that it gets dirty quickly when shot.

5. The gun malfunctions when not maintained properly. While this is true of all guns, the P7 seems to be more sensitive than most modern autos. The solution is to keep the gas cylinder clean.

6. The P7's cocking lever emits a click when released. This is more of an issue with SEAL wannabes than real people. The theory is that the noise will alert the bad guys to your presence. Easily overcome with technique anyway (press in cocking latch at top of cocking lever while releasing your grip). With this technique the gun is almost silent and certainly quieter than any SIG or USP with decocking lever.

7. Low capacity. Except in now unavailable M13 (LEO only) and M10 (discontinued for ugliness), capacity is limited to 9 rounds (with one in chamber).

8. Grip screws come loose too easily. Use lock-tite.

9. Can't use lead bullets (see cleanliness issues above).

10. Slide lock button too small for some.

11. Magazine release on M8/M13 too sensitive to careless holstering (accidental magazine ejection). PSP model doesn't suffer from this (Euro-magazine catch).

12. During an emergency a user might accidentally squeeze the trigger while squeezing the cocking lever. I personally think this isn't a problem. The P7 was designed with a fair amount of take-up in the trigger so the gun is tolerant of some sloppiness. The moral of the story is to keep you finger off the trigger until you are ready to kill something. It should also be noted that your trigger finger is relatively independent of your other fingers. I can't remember the physiological term, but the other three fingers usually act in unison while the index finger is only partially connected. Still, in an emergency anything is possible--practice proper form with all firearms!

13. For some, seriously ham-fisted users, the gun might be accidentally disassembled if the take down button is inadvertently pressed while the slide is being racked. This is extremely unlikely, however, it can be done with practice.

14. Disassembly not for mere mortals. A "detail strip"
can involve a lot of head/heart ache. The gun has a fair number of parts but the real problem is the gun's unorthodox design [Expert reassembly tip, use grease to hold in the mag release spring--otherwise you will go mad trying to hold everything together while attempting to drive in the assembly pin]. An armorer at HK told me that they regularly have to reassemble guns for owners who let curiosity get the better of them. Fortunately, there is really no reason to strip it down beyond a "field strip." Just spray in some gun oil and wipe.

15. Possible difficulty depressing cocking lever with weak or injured hands. My father has weakness in his right hand related to a stroke he had a few years ago. For a while he was unable to cock my M8. On the other hand, once the lever is squeezed it only takes about a pound and a half to keep it cocked."
-From P7GURU at Park Cities Tactical Cult of the P7

[buzzman_45011]

Who makes carry holsters for them?

I carry mine in a Milt Sparks VII. You can also find them from Ted Blocker, and BladeTech, and Mitch Rosen

[ripley16]

Who makes carry holsters for them?

Mine came from http://kdholsters.com/

seen here.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i186/ripley16/p7holster.jpg

[BarryP7M8]

So some of you guys actually carry and shoot this thing? I assumed you all keep them as safe queens. I'm gonna start looking into one.

I carry mine, although I usually carry either a 1911 or Browning HiPower.
There are times when I need something just a little smaller and that's where I think the P7 shines. It's enough smaller to make a difference, but still big enough to be easy to shoot well.
In fact, I shoot it as well or better than the 1911 or HiPowers that I carry and shoot much more often.

However, I don't consider it a "compromise gun" that I ONLY use when I can't carry something else. I have one on right now, even though I could be carrying any of my 1911s or HiPowers.
It's the only compact 9mm that I've been able to shoot well enough that I'll carry when I don't have to.

Mostly, I use either a Sparks Summer Special or Blade Tech Kydex holster (both IWB). I prefer IWB, but the P7 is handy enough that I'll carry it on the belt sometimes. I use an Alessi CQC/S for that- my favorite belt holster.

[hkmike]

ALLS I CAN SAY,I LOVE THE P7M8 SO MUCH, I BOUGHT 2!!

[Richard S]

In addition to everything Greg Bell listed, they're not only "a real hoot to shoot" but also very easy on the eyes -- especially after Virgil Tripp gets through with one and Karl Nill provides some walnut Rhomlas grips to complete the package. :cool:


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/RichardS/hkp7withnillgrips.jpg

[gman1868]

Thanks for the response on the holsters. Now I have to decide whether to get a PSP or M8. Seems there are advantages and disadvantages to both models. The PSPs are a little less expensive tho...

hmmm help me make up my mind! :20000000:

[BarryP7M8]

I've got one of each, but have only had the PSP a couple of months (one of the surplus guns).
I'm probably biased to the one I'm used to, but I like the M8 better.

For most of the 20 years I wanted, but did not have, a P7 I picked the brains of owners. Most of them said they preferred the PSP, and after hearing that enough times, I decided that's what I had to have.

Of course, PSPs seemed pretty scarce then. I passed over a few P7M8s because I just HAD to have a PSP.

Finally, I "settled" for an M8.
I wish I had settled sooner.

It made me wonder about some of the negatives I kept hearing about the P7s, like how fast they get hot. It took about 50 rounds to get my M8 hot, and then I had to actually touch the gas cylinder area to notice (why would I do that?). I would guess that 90% of P7 owners don't own enough magazines to put that many rounds through theirs without a break, so I put it down as an exaggeration.
Then I got the PSP and shot it, and felt the heat fairly quick.
I still don't think it's such a terrible thing in a carry gun, as I can't imagine burning through enough rounds in a fight to be afffected by it, but it IS more noticeable with the PSP.

After I had my M8 a while, I checked with a friend and PSP fan and asked precisely why he thought it was better. After being pinned down, he basically said it was because he carried them without a holster by just tucking it in his waistband, and the M8's mag release was too easily tripped.
OK. So sell your Porsche or motorhome and buy a holster.

I think the M8 is more "shootable" because I'm not bothered by the heating.
Also-
The firing pin is easier to remove (it's handy to be able to deactivate the gun sometimes).
The mag changes are quicker/easier (although a tactical reload is about the same).
Right now mags are fairly easy to get for either, but it seems to me like M8 mags have been just a little more plentiful in the past.

[dkk73]

Re: P7 PSP vs. P7M8

I decided on the PSP for these reasons:
-great price recently due to German police guns being imported, much less than M8
-flush heel mag release less likely to accidentally be pressed during concealed carry; this is much more of a concern for me for CCW than a small difference in reload speed

Something I came across later:
-these older (80's) guns are well-made; there is some discussion about the newer P7 specimens being not quite as well-made (still high quality, don't get me wrong)

Your timing for getting a P7 of any type is good as PSP availability seems to be driving M8 prices down! :)

[Bad Voodoo]

I hate to resurrect an old thread, but is there an authoritative response from H&K regarding production of the P7? I know that they've *said* there are no plans to import more to the US, however are they still being produced for other int'l markets or contracts?

This just can't be the end for this platform, can it?

[murfdog]

:61:
And one more thing. Because on the "coolness" factor rating of 1 to 100, the HK P7 is 110.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q187/mm6mm6/P7003.jpg You are one great photographer,that is an incredible picture.I've never shot one or held one but this forum is full of very smart gun guy's.Seems that 99% seem this is a special gun so I'm just going to get one,I just got a new catalouge from CDNN $600 VG to EX or $675 EX to Like New is the $675 worth it.Thanks

[gunut45]

I just got mine. Grade B with very little wear for $540 OTD :D

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/-GuNuT-/HK/MMS_Resized_Pix.jpg

[Geohans]

I posted this on the cult:

Old Conventional Wisdom: Flood of Police P7 PSPs will drive down the price of M8s.

NEW Conventional Wisdom: Flood of cheap P7 PSPs is like a loss-leader, drawing in and hooking the fence-sitters. Once they own a real P7, they realize this is the best personal defense/concealed carry pistol ever designed. They are compelled to buy more, and drive UP the cost of M8s.

Fact is, 15 year old M8s are selling for nearly 500 dollars more than what we paid for them in the 90s. View this video, and ask yourself why anyone would buy anything else for personal defense:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6239098748148707308