A little help choosing a CCW gun.

[AFCATM]

CCW Gun shopping let me know what you think...

Well here it goes.

9mm- G19 (slight grip work from BTC) XS night sights (Big Dot)

40S&W -G23 (same as the 19) or HK USP Compact (figured there may be some a little cheaper out there with the P2000 out) Only work on USP would be XS night sights.

45 ACP- USP Compact with XS sights.

Reasons to go with Glock:

-More affordable. (Stock that is)
-More affordable mags and acessories.
-More availiblity of parts.
-been through armorers school.
-Better grip angle

Reasons not to go with Glock:

-Cost of modification of grip ( I cannot stand the finger grooves they are uncomfortable)
-I hear about 40's and 45's blowing up or otherwise breaking. ( I have been out of the gun buisness for about 5 years now)
-I have never really shot alot with gloves until a while back and I felt alot more comfortable shooting DA/SA over Glock. Yes I know keep your finger out of the trigger guard and I do but my gloves kept catching on the safety.

Reasons to go with HK.

-Save money on the grip mods. (BTC) It will cost me around 300 so I am around the price of a stock USPc.
-SA/DA like my issued M9.
-I have a conventional safety and decocking lever.
-Can carry cocked and locked if I choose to.
-Have been through the HK Armorers course.


Reason NOT to go with HK:

-Cost
-Cost of acessories.
-Probably will be discontinued in a few years.
-Parts are not as availible as the Glock.
-Higher bore axis = more muzzle flip.


Basically as it stands IF I go 9mm it is going to be the G19, 40 S&W it is a toss up, 45 I can't find a 45 that is equal to the USP. Try as I may. Now maybe the S&W M&P45 compact if it comes out will be a choice. I just have the USPC 45 on there thinking I maybe able to get one (or two) somewhat easy.

One thing that I am looking at is buying two or three (a back up) and then one for my wife (probably a 9mm she's not really into shooting) and later one for my little girl (probably a 9mm too)

It's a given that HK guys will most likely go HK and Glock with Glock but I like both. AS I read what I wrote I see that Glock/HK come out even. I think I can't see the forest. Am I missing something that will push me one way or another.

[Captain America]

Try the HK P-30. And the HK45 Compact, when it comes out.

You will forget all about that Glock nonsense!

[rbrgs]

Forget about how much they cost, that's not how you want to choose a carry gun. I've seen a Glock 23 blow up twice, but the 19 seems OK; mostly it's that the Glock was designed as a 9mm in the first place. Which one do you shoot best?
I really like my P7.

[sfguard]

Gotta say at least go look at a P30 even if you don't like the finger grooves on the G19. Most agree it is one of the most comfortable pistols they have ever held. It is the size of a G19 15+1 mag cap, and ammo is affordable for practice. The sights on it are awesome also. At least do yourself a favor, and just look at one.

[sfguard]

Not too mention the whole bore axis thing is soooooooo greatly overrated especially with HKs recoil system

[Goose5]

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c56/Goose5/newp7.jpg

This is what I decided on for CCW. This gun is scary accurate.

[AFCATM]

I have a few favorites out there:

High end 1911, Custom Browning HP's, S&W revolvers J/K/L 38/357 mags, Sig Sauers (Alloy not polymer frames), Glock 9/40/45's and HK P7 and USPs.

The P7 is awesome I will give you that however I have been kind of leaning away from 9mm lately. Don't really know why. Might be that I am starting to see alot of 9mm and 40 come really close in matching prices.

Honestly I just figured that with the 2000, the 30 and the 45 that the gun stores might be looking to get rid of the uspcompacts and save a ew bucks that can go to ammo.

Money is an issue however I am not affraid to pay for quality. I am also looking at taking a few schools (something new) and I want a spare gun set up identical just in case.

[Captain America]

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c56/Goose5/newp7.jpg

This is what I decided on for CCW. This gun is scary accurate.


I have wanted one of those puppies ever since I saw Tommie Lee Jones
in the movie, Under Seige.

Where's my credit card?

[Mouseboy]

You have been through the HK and Glock Armorers Courses and your scared of KBs and failures with certain calibers?

Check your notes.

+1 on the P7

[H&K 4 LIFE]

LOL. I saw that movie the other night on TV and I was going "Is that a P7?...IT IS!". I was very surprised. The P7 is "scarey" accurate.

The G19 is a very good weapon. The P30 is a great weapon. If you want a 9mm CCW and have the money, get the P30.

If you want a .40 I would take a USPc over the G23 as well. I have shot a G23 and I just like the feel of the USP better although it is a little bulkier and heavier. Again, Glocks are very good guns, but they are just not HKs.

Seems like you need to shoot a couple different guns to decide what caliber you want before moving onto what make and model.

[AFCATM]

Mouseboy,

At first I was a little taken back at your comment. I will try and clear it up though. I was in the military and got out in 99. I started to work at a local gunstore/shooting range. While there my employer sent me to HK's Armorers course in Alexadria Virginia for a week. I got certified on the SL8, USC Carbine, Fabarms FP6 12 Ga, and of course the USP and USPc. I later got to go to Dayton Ohio for the Glock Armorers course. This was all on the course of Late 99 to Mid 00. After 2001 I rejoined the military and am now a weapons instructor. The only problem is I do not deal with civilian weapons much anymore and I am stationed far away from home. So most of what I get dealing with civilian weapons is second hand info from my old co workers, the internet, or going out and buying a gun rag.

If you would like I can dig up my HK Armorers Certificate and My Glock Armorers Certificate. Obviously the industry changes and new models come out along with new calibers too. Since then Glock changed how many pins are in the lower reciever. The 36 came out, the 45 GAP's came out. Apparently there were some issues with 40's and 45's although very few. HK P2000's, P30's and now the 45 has come out.

So Please forgive my irnorance to the most cutting edge of what everyone is up to since I have been away from it for a while. I honestly have not really thought about getting an HK except a P7M8 which I have always loved and was one of the reasons I wanted to go to HK for Armorers Schools (I wanted and got to handle the only HK P7M7 in the US and only one of two or three in the world). I had a USP 45 Full size that I had sold years ago and although was a great gun I had to get rid of it for money reasons.

So for those that have given me constructive input I do sincerly appreciate it and I will continue to think about my purchase carefully. For anyone else that reads this thread and gets confused, well I hope I have clearified any misunderstanding.

Thanks all.

[AFCATM]

HK 4 Life,

Aint that the truth there is a local indoor shooting range and I will see if they have the two models in 40. I have shot all of them however it has been a number of years. I remember at the time I had a Sig 228 and thought that the USPc 9mm did very well against it and so did a rental 19. The 40 if memory serves correct was a little snappier but I don't think I compaired it the 23.

[gkellys]

In my hands the HK (P2000) has less perceived recoil than the Glocks regardless of bore / axis. I have had at least 5 different Glocks. Today I have zero. Not bashing, they are great guns. But give me an HK over a G anytime.

[H&K 4 LIFE]

Honestly I am over the "snappyness" of the .40. I shot the G23 Homeland Defender, which has the same Trijicons as my Glocks. Personaly, I did not notice any increased snap from the G23 compared to the USPc. Both pistols shot very well for me but I just prefer the heavier USPc, mainly because of the sight picture and feel in the hand. Alot of practice with the .40 makes it handle much easier.

If you like the grip angle of the Glock, among HK people at least, you are a rare breed. I too find both pistols comfortable and accurate...very different mind you...but comfortable and accurate. :)

[Mouseboy]

Mouseboy,

At first I was a little taken back at your comment.

No need to be.

I just feel like the "caliber dependent" Kboom needs to be stamped out like it never existed.

For example......

The 40 S&W may be the perfect cartridge for many, especially those that can't afford both a 9mm and 45ACP. The theory of "caliber dependent" Kboom should not even be considered in considering the 3.

The chances of a KB with factory ammo is so small, yet many make such a big deal out of it they mislead folks who don't know any better

I know you didn't invent the theory so no need to be taken back

[AFCATM]

OK guys here is what I have come up with so far.... Glock 23 VS HK USP Compact 40.

DRAW: Width, Height, Length, Effective sights, All on par with each other.

GLOCK WINS: Barrel Lenght: Glock wins by almost a half an inch which will make a difference in muzzle verlocity, muzzle flash, and consistant expantion of HP ammo. Both use polgonal (sp) rifling.

DRAW Safeties: In addition to the standard safeties Glock has HK has a Safety decocking lever which also allows the weapon to be carried "cocked and Locked" This can be good for a person that feels "safety concious" or be a con if you are a super high speed "tactical shooter" because it is another thing that can cause confusion. I however find the arguement void since the same people will almost always point out a 1911 being thier holy grail handgun.

DRAW: Trigger pull: Glock has a consistant trigger. HK has a reasonably nice DA/SA trigger (stock vs stock)

GLOCK WINS: Magazine Capacity: Glock wins by 1 round. Plus Glock will accept 15 round mags from the 22. Truthfully however this does not mean much in the big picture.

DRAW: Weight: Not that huge of a difference to choose one over teh other.

DRAW: Durability: Both weapons have demonstrated thier durability world wide.

DRAW: Quality: It is a hard thing to compare much like the trigger pull.. These weapons are built to take alot of punishment and ask for more. To point out that HK's look better or glocks look better for this reason or that is frankly stupid. THis weapon will be for CCW. Why worry about how pretty it is if it is covered. I am sure the criminal if I ever have to use it will be very impressed on how pretty one gun is vs another.

DRAW??Affrordability: It is a concern for most including myself. I want quality but I still gotta pay for other things in my life with a finite ammount of money. Both are affordable to a degree.. To some that is a big deal to others not so much. However just about anyone given enough time can afford either brand.

GLOCK WINS BIG TIME: Affrodability/Availablity of accessories: Glock right here blows HK out of the water on this one and I think anyone being objective will agree.



So there are three things the Glock beats the HK on. Does that mean Glock is the best?? Considering Cost of accessories is an economical question and not one on reliability or other relivance I say it does not truely matter.

Magazine capacity well Glock won there but only with one round (stock vs stock mags) so I don't think that should have much weight either.

What can you think of that we can pit them up against. Not a personal feeling. Neutral "scientific" for lack of a better term, info.


What else???

[AFCATM]

Mouseboy,

I do whole heartedly agree with you. If you are aware of the news. Walking in to this from a black out I am in a way playing catch up for the last 5 years. If there was a serious problem of KB's out there the Feds would not allow that to continue not the mention arm thier LEO's with that product. It is just that one hears more about Glock than HK KBing however Glock is issued to more LEO's probably 20-1 and Civilians probably have Glocks 10-1 over HK.

I am just trying to educate myslef on any and all changes since I have been out of the game.

[BytorJr]

AFCATM,

First of all, thanks for serving!!!

My 0.02. Have you thought about LEM? It may more closely resemble the Glock trigger as the pull is the same weight. Granted you have to pull longer that first shot, and reset isn't Glock fast. So Glock would probably still win that one.

Since you've been to the armorer schools, I have this question, which I've always wondered about. The HK has a true polygonal bore, while doesn't the Glock have sort of a hybrid? When one looks at the barrels, the HK is obviously polygonal; however, upon looking at the Glock, one sees something in between traditional lands&grooves and polygonal. Please educate me on this...I think I also read it on the 'net' so it must be right, correct? :).

I almost jumped ship to Glock, but since that time I've become more committed to the HK platform. I like what I consider a better grip angle (though you have the right to disagree), and I love the mag release. Since I believe on sticking with ONE muscle memory profile, I stuck with HK since I'd had 5 training classes with it.

The P99 is my alternate choice now. However, the cheap plastic sights kinda don't do it for me.

Either way, have fun, good luck!

[Pol. 745]

glad to hear someone else loves the mag release on the HK's! I have had a couple of Glocks over the years and never did like the mag release. This is something that is not discussed very much. For me, that's a big +1 over any other handgun.

One more thing about round compacity, sure extra rounds are always nice to have in one magazine, but if anyone has to shoot that many rounds to stop a threat... i'd say practice.

[AFCATM]

Well as far as serving goes. I can't say I am as patriotic as I used to be but I am a heck of alot less synical than I could be. Great people in this country making sure we know we are not invisible and that they appreciate what we do keeps alot of our guys going whtn they hit hard times.

As far as the difference specifically in writting I am going to have to look for it. I can't find my Armorers manual rigth now but I can at least look to see if the info is in the Armorers manual I have. It's 10:30pm though so I will post on here if I find it.

I have swapped around on so many guns it's funny. I have had only two problems with muscle memory and that was going from an HK to a Sig to a 1911. Just because two guns have a hammer drop don't mean the third does. Nothing happened but for a second I was wondering why when I flip ths lever does'nt the hammer release. DUH!!!! Hey it happens.

I too like the HK mag release. Funny thing is I hate how it feels on the Walther and I don't like the walther triggers at all. Just me though.

As far as mag capacity I look at it this way. Stats show you are most likely to use your weapon in the dark, at relatively close range, a few shots and multiple bad guys.

I'll have small can of OC, night sights, carry a surefire, have a small fixed blade knife, carry three mags )will drop to two probably in summer and they will be the highest capacity the manufacturer makes as I will only use HK mags in an HK. After that I will continue to practice practice practice. After I get my guns and gear together I want to go to TDI for a few classes as soon as I can make time and afford it. And I will start out at Level 1 there so I can start from scratch. It is always goot to work on basics. I already train three shot minimum on any threat. Now if you were the bad guy and you jumped on top... You get the whole mag or until you decide you don't want to play anymore.

I plan on carrying for CCW everything I carry as a military cop..

Pistol: XS Night sights in a good quality holster
Holster: As stated above
Gun Belt: good thick one.
Dble (summer single) Mag pouch.
SF Flashlight (E2E) with pouch.
Hideaway knife with sheath.
Small fixed blade knife in sheath,
ASP Pepperspray on key chain.
Cell Phone.
Perrin Pen: Impact tool

But since the gun is the foundation I am trying to get that straight.


matt

[BytorJr]

Mmmkay,

I'm going to just ask a bunch of questions here. Sounds like you've done your research.

What didn't you like about the P99 release? Was it a new or old style? I didn't find it too bad the other day (new style) at a gun show in NW FL (where prices are soooooo high, you'd be better off purchasing direct from manufacturer if possible). Anyway, P99 vs P30. P30 felt great...P99, OK (maybe better than a USP, but didn't point quite as well for me.). P99 would be a great alternate in case of not wanting to spend $$.

Sounds like you plan on carrying a lot of stuff. Just how do you conceal all that? Seriously. I don't seem to conceal an SK well. Granted, it's because it's a Galco Concealable Carry that's got a rake of 30 degrees instead of 15 or better yet 7.5.

I will admit, at night, I do arm myself a little better than day. Even though I don't like NW Florida, I will say it's low crime; so I don't feel like I need to pack a 15 rounder + spares. Now..in Orlando...yes....an AR-15 would have been more like it. :(.

[a1class3]

I own about everthing mentioned so far (sans a P30) and thought I should chime in. If your concealing all that stuff you can probably go with a pretty big gun as well. I just got a M&P9 and I love the darn thing. Very accurate and totally comfortable. Now be aware some have had issues with them but I haven't had the slightest problem with mine so far and have been shooting the crap out of it. I thougth I should mention it as it has replaced my G19 for CCW most of the time now. I think that is also alot of things for conceal and am wondering how you plan on carrying it all. I have recently taken to toting a LBT med bag around with all of my gear including my weapon. It allows me to carry all the extra mags I want and lights and gloves and most importantly, leave my M6X clone on my gun while carrying it in public. All without the hassle of strapping all that crap to my person, just grab my little "go bag" and head out the door without the GF asking what the hell are you doing as I am trying on guns and holsters looking for what is going to print through the outfit I am wearing while still being appropriate for the environment I am preparing to be in. Have you considered the g26? I have one with TFO's and some other hop ups and really love it. accurate and concealable while keeping the option of stuffing any 9mm mag you want in it for the capacity required and def. keeping a couple of 15rd 19 mags in the bag. Hope this adds even more confusion to the fray :D This is why I continue to buy more handguns on a regular basis to have one for every occasion and outfit. PF9, 3" kimber, G19 & 26, M&P9, P7M8, P32, P99, 40tac, USPc's in 9 and 357, and recently a P229r from Gordon (a new favorite carry piece in a serpa) just to name a few...

[230GrainRemedy]

For me I chose the USP/C in 40. It blends the best accuracy, dependabilty and size all into one package. It's a var. 1 so traditional safety/decocker. To go 45 the overall package of the weapon grows with the increase of caliber, and your round count decreases as well over the 9, 40 or 357 offerings from HK. My mods to my carry 40C are hard chrome finish and mepro night sights. guns blowing up are most likely due to heavy use of +P or +P+ loads like what a SWAT team would use full time or faulty reloaded ammo. San Bernardino Sheriffs had some premature wear, stress and frame damages I heard of in their Glock 21s from a steady diet of the duty 45 +P Ranger SXT.

[Goose5]

I have wanted one of those puppies ever since I saw Tommie Lee Jones
in the movie, Under Seige.

Where's my credit card?

This one I bought used Grade B from Steve at SCP Firearms. I instantly shot better with this gun. I am just baffled when I bring a target back from 50 feet. It is just as good as any other gun I shoot at 25 feet. It is truly amazing.

[fiddletown]

I'm coming into this late, but my pick would also be a P7M8. It's an excellent gun and amazingly compact -- easy and comfortable to carry concealed. It's accurate and reliable.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/fiddletown_2006/P7M8/IMG_4558E2.jpg

Of course if I wanted something bigger than a 9mm, I'd carry a 1911 (my Nighthawk Talon II, Talon III or Talon IV -- Talon III shown).

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/fiddletown_2006/Talon%20III/IMG_4095.jpg

[AFCATM]

As far as carrying all this stuff it really is'nt too hard if you have a good rig.

The handgun will most likely be carried IWB.
On the gun belt I will have the Mag pouches or mag pouch deplending.
Also on my belt will be my Hidaway Straight.
In my left pocket I will have the SF
In my Right pocket will be my Keys with the small ASP Key defender.
Usually I wear a polo type shirt which I keey a pen in the neck of (as a miltary cop I got it beat in my head to carry a pen always)

I do plan on getting a messenger type bag. I want to buy some Kydex and make a flat pannel with my kydex holster in it, fixed blad knife, and Mag pouches so I can just drop the kydex pannel in the bag and I am GTG. The little pockets can carry other items. This will work well for summer too as I have a daughter and to see me with a bag is normal (she carries as much junk as her momma and daddy do)

Of course I will have to see if my theory will work. When I was carrying Concealed due to my job I carried the following:

Usually a Shoulder holster: but also IWB.

Glock 19 with 2) 17 round mags as reloads.
Benchmade AFCK
Leatherman Supertool
ASP Large Key Defender
SF 6P

If it's not too hot I also carried:

Chief's special with a bobbed hammer in an ankle rig.

In my pockets I had a Bianchi speed strip for the 38. In my glove box I had 2) 19 round mags for the Glock.

In the back of the Cab I had at the time my pre ban M4gery with 10) 30 round mags. Hey what do you expect I worked at an indoor shooting range. Had I not had it I would have missed out on the chance to take a free Ken Hackathorn pistol class.

[dtibbals]

Well here is my 2 cents. I have always carried a Glock 26/27 (both calibers). I prefer HK but I don't have an issue with Glock. In my opinion I wanted one gun that could be carried in any weather with any clothing. The Glock 26 can be carried easily on the hip or inside the pants and is super easy to conceal. If I was wearing pants I usually carried it on an ankle. It depends on how I would be dressed, a shirt untucked is more in fashion now then it was years ago. I also carry a G17/22 mag as a back up. I prefer the 9mm or 40 cal over a 45 simply for the weight of the gun loaded. I have never had a Glock not work, break etc. They are pretty cheap, holsters all over the place etc. I think trying to carry even a G19 or a USP C in all weather conditions might be kind of hard. In the winter it becomes easier but then if I am inside some where and want to take my jacket off I have to make sure the shirt will actually cover the gun when sitting etc. Thats one reason an ankle holster really is nice.

Caliber wars aside I think for a true CCW gun its hard to beat a 9mm or 40cal. Lets face it, if we had to shoot someone its going to be up close and personal. Use a good HP and your set. Cops have many issues to deal with that we probably never will in CCW. Doubt we will have to shoot through a car, glass etc. It is possible but most likely it will be up close and personal. If things like this are really a concern then carry another gun in your car that is of a larger caliber etc, or a rifle/shotgun.

So bottom line is as much as I love my HK's I still think the G26/27 is the best real CCW out there.

Dave

[AFCATM]

OK well I guess this is what I am going to do. I will save all my bottle caps and when I am financially capable of buying what I want I will go out and flip a quarter. The truth is that an HK USP Compact is about 250.00 more than a Glock but a Kimber is about 150-200 more than an HK.

Glock Mags are the cheapest price tag at 15-30.00 deplending on promo's and such with an average price of 25.00 HK's are in the 35.00 range rivalling some 1911 mags out there.

Holsters will be the same price for the most part if there is a difference we are talking a few bucks.

Aftermarket items.... XS Sights run 125.00 ball park.

So in the end when you take away the names and look at functionality it is basically a draw (it just took a while to get it through my thick skull) Well we will see what I get in March 08 with my income tax refund.

[nuc_squid]

OK well I guess this is what I am going to do. I will save all my bottle caps and when I am financially capable of buying what I want I will go out and flip a quarter.

Is ergonomics high on your list of qualifications? I think you've conclusively proved that both the USPc 9/40 and glock 19 are great weapons, and by your metrics the glock definitely wins. But they shoot VERY differently. Surely you like the feel of one more than the other? By your metrics I'd be carrying a G19, but I'm not ... just personal preference.

[AFCATM]

Both are great, reliable, accurate, well built guns. Yes the HK is a bit more comfortable in my hand.

[Stump]

On paper they both look good. I have Sigs, HKs and Glocks and I trust them all. You're forgetting the most important thing (IMHO), how the gun feels and points. An extra $200 ($689 at Clyde's w/3 mags and night sights) isn't a big deal if the gun fits you better.

You can't lose, so get the one that fits your hand the best.

[EOD Guy]

Check both the SIG P239-DAK and S&W M&P compact as well. Both are 100% reliable. I have both. Carried the SIG for years, but the M&Pc replaced it this summer due to size and capacity.

[AFCATM]

As mad as this will make you all I am buying the glocks first. I have found a place that has mags (new ones) for 15.00 ea. I am stocking up on mags for them now and I will be buying the mags for the USP Compact in 9 and 40. As I buy the mags I am also getting the holsters, belts, mag pouches, ammo and other needed items picked up. As I do this I am putting aside 150.00 a payday for my guns themselves.

This way I have everything covered.

Thanks for the input guys.

[nwusp45]

Well if you need to modify the Glock grip, doesn't realy seem like you would save that much money. I prefer C/L carry, so the HK is a no brainer to me. I would also recommend a Browning Hi Power, but their are fairly pricey too. The PSP's prices are down to $599, that's hard to pass up. I carry an HK on duty, but can't put away the BHP for concealed carry, it's just too thin and comfortable. They are all good guns regardless.

[Cadillac Johnson]

The P99 is my alternate choice now. However, the cheap plastic sights kinda don't do it for me.



Plastic sights are no good, but plastic frames are? :D

To the OP, personally I would take a P2K or P99 over both your choices.

However, if you're dead set on the G19, G22 or USPc, as a CCW only, I'd lean towards the G19. If your wanting something that you're going to have fun with as well, I'd lean towards the USPc.

Although the first thing I would do is narrow it down to one caliber, and then start comparing. You have three, sorta, different guns in three different calibers. It's hard to get unbiased feedback when you have people's opinions on caliber clouding their opinions based purely on the gun itself.