Which gun to take to FrontSight Class?

[dtibbals]

I am going to a 4 day tactical pistol course at FrontSight in March 08. I originally planned on taking my Expert 9mm and either a USP 9mm or Expert 45acp as a back up. They say to take a back up even though I probably would not need one. But I bought an HK45 a couple of weeks ago and am starting to think I will take it with me as my primary. I will either buy a second one as a back up or take another USP 45 as a back up.

So my question is this, which gun do I take with me? I was going to use my Expert 9mm since its my IDPA & 3 gun match gun and the Expert 45 is my USPSA, bowling pin gun. I really like the HK45 and figure if I can get good with a 45acp at the course a 9mm is just that much easier. I also figured the controls are the same, triggers aren't that far apart, but they do have a little different feel and sights when comparing the Expert to the HK45.

What would you do????


PS I have other guns such as P7M13, Glocks, 1911 but I want to take an HK. So please give me your opinion based on the Experts and HK45 as the only options.
Dave

[choochboost]

Well since you'll be burning through 800-1000 rounds I'd take the 9mm because its less expensive.

[dtibbals]

Well since you'll be burning through 800-1000 rounds I'd take the 9mm because its less expensive.

Well the cost did enter my mind but it isn't that much more. I am wanting to get the most from this trip since it is going to cost a lot when all said and done. I am all for saving a few bucks but not sure that is the right way to go, decisions decisions!!!!

[straightgrain]

Take whichever one is your primary carry weapon (or go to weapon if you do not carry). Foundation building elements of this class are for the gun you will be entrusting your life to.

[dtibbals]

Take whichever one is your primary carry weapon (or go to weapon if you do not carry). Foundation building elements of this class are for the gun you will be entrusting your life to.

Well thats part of the issue. My carry gun of the past was a Glock 27. Now I live in a non carry state. So not to bust myself out on things but my "carry/car" gun still "would" be a G27, maybe the HK45 now...I am pretty impressed with it. The reason behind my original thought of taking the Expert 9mm is that its the one I shoot and compete with the most.

[straightgrain]

I'm pretty sure that Front Sight will be teaching you tactical and defense techniques. If the Glock is what you go to, then use it (we promise not to snicker). If you are migrating to the HK45, then use that. I would *NOT* recommend that use the weapon that you compete with. Although similar techniques are employed in competition, tactical and defense isn't about scoring points or gaming the scenario. It's about picking up the weapon and making somebody dead. I'm all about honing skills, but there is a difference.

And I am not trying to sound like I am lecturing!

[policemedic]

I'm with Straitgrain.

Piazza's instructors do not teach competition shooting. Their emphasis is on defensive pistolcraft, and they make no bones about it.

So with that in mind I recommend you take the gun you intend to reach for when goblins appear.

By the way- the Walmart in Pahrump will happily order ammo for you, and their prices are reasonable especially when you consider you won't pay shipping.

[sfguard]

Gotta agree whatever you plan on going to when times are ruff. Or are going to carry on a regular basis is what I would use

[reaper8154]

I agree too. Take the gun you will carry daily. Use it and learn it's strengths and weaknesses, so when the poo hits the fan you know your capabilities with the weapon.

[Mark71]

I agree with the other guys. Take the gun that you are most comfortable with in a defensive situation and the the one that you will use if SHTF.

[230GrainRemedy]

I agree with the other posts reference to what you carry. I chose the HK45 because its the smallest big gun in the list. If it shoots half as smooth as the USP45 you'll have a good time.

[Blackwind]

I'm pretty sure that Front Sight will be teaching you tactical and defense techniques. If the Glock is what you go to, then use it (we promise not to snicker). If you are migrating to the HK45, then use that. I would *NOT* recommend that use the weapon that you compete with. Although similar techniques are employed in competition, tactical and defense isn't about scoring points or gaming the scenario. It's about picking up the weapon and making somebody dead. I'm all about honing skills, but there is a difference.

And I am not trying to sound like I am lecturing!

I would disagree.

If you are attempting to apply gaming and competitive shooting to your defense tactics...you may have a point. But applying defensive and tactical shooting to your competitive shooting is more then viable. In fact this is the very thing I bring to my 3-gun matches etc. It was the entire intent to begin with when these style of competitive shooting began.

[dtibbals]

Well it sounds like I will be buying a second HK45 then. Its really clear you all feel I should take the HK45. I am not to suprised since I had been thinking I should take the class with that gun and what I learn will apply to competitve shooting as well.

Dave

Keep coming with the responses. I plan on taking a camera and documenting the experience the best I can. A friend of mine is going with me.

[BytorJr]

Blackwind,

I see you must be hanging out at Tiger Valley, right?

[Blackwind]

Blackwind,

I see you must be hanging out at Tiger Valley, right?

When I can. There are of course other 3-gun and tactical shooting matches up here in North Texas worth going to. :320000:

[straightgrain]

Blackwind,
Valid points, indeed. And we have 3-gun matches in the Houston area, so there! The point that I was trying to make is that for almost all, the mindset and frame of reference of a competitive match versus a real world shoot is dramatic and quite different. Yes, defensive tactics can be employed to great advantage in competition.

But for the overwhelming majority of folks, the application of martial arts or gamesmanship in competition will never ever compare to nightmare scenario of taking a life. It's a different kind of adrenaline overload. If I am going to class to learn how to save my own skin, I'm taking the gun that I expect will be my implement. If I am going to that same class with the intent of honing my competition skills, then I am taking the comp gun. I would consider it a bonus if they are one and the same!

Right now, if I attended Front Site, I would be taking my USPc45 or my Wilson 1911 Commander size (I carry both about equal time depending on the fashion required of the day). I may transition to the HK45. If I was taking the class purely to hone my competition skills, It would probably be an Elite in .40 or 9 with a Jet Funnel.

[Blackwind]

Blackwind,


But for the overwhelming majority of folks, the application of martial arts or gamesmanship in competition will never ever compare to nightmare scenario of taking a life.

In a nutshell...thats why the Internet breeds tough guys. :50:

After exiting the Marine Corps back in '95 I wanted to continue to keep my shooting sharp and consistent with my training in the Marine Corps. At the time...the only game in town even comparable was 3-gun or the like. In the years since, the events have become more and more "gaming" then focus on the skills that would and can be deployed in saving ones life or another persons.

That has continued to be stretched to fit the "gaming" definition of use of cover, targets engaged etc. In many respects, shooting is shooting...it is a skill set. Personally, I have always found shooting and the focus of engaging in this activity to keep those skills current and available. I don't shoot for time, I don't shoot to impress.....I shoot to retain the capability, in a time of crisis, to smoothly go about the action of defending myself or my loved ones.

Smoother is faster. Hitting what you aim for is key...no matter the caliber.

[TexasJim]

Take that new HK45, you will be the celebrity of the class. Plus I think you will switch it to your main CCW weapon!!! TJ

[straightgrain]

Blackwind,
I'm really not trying to pick a fight with you (would that be martial or gaming?)! And I get the whole part about interwebtube warriors.

Most folks will never be exposed to a real life/death shoot. As a real warrior, I commend you and thank you for doing what so many cannot. I put a lot of lead down range, but would never for a moment consider myself a warrior. I practice, practice, practice. And I do carry legally. But I also know from all the classes, the training, the watching, the learning, and my one brush with a hold up, that there is a distinct difference in the mindset for most people between running an IDPA scenario and being jacked by a gang-banger. Should the person have learned something from running the IDPA course when they find themselves with BG? Absolutely! But human nature says that is often not the case, save for those who do it for a living (soldiers, many cops, etc.). Adrenaline kicks in, vision narrows, primal drive starts up and it's amazing how much of that training flies out the window.

Which is why my recommendation for most folks is to take the gun that they are going to entrust their life to. Having something familiar there, that's always there, is a comfort to that fight or flight reflex. I'd be willing to bet that you have trained so much and so long that just about any weapon is a comfort to you, whether gaming or in a life/death situation. It's a level that I aspire to, but know is not practical for me or many readers of this forum.

Merry Christmas!

[dtibbals]

Well this thread is getting away from the original post. I am taking the frontsight class to improve upon my handgun skills. I am not a bullseye shooter so for the "gaming" side of things what I will learn is how to handle a weapon with speed. I do stick firm with IDPA way of doing things, I do work hard at the fundamentals. I know after the first year of shooting IDPA and 3 gun matches my skill has improved. I am sure with additional competition and training at frontsight my skill will continue to improve. Training does releate into the real world. It amazed me when I started shooting IDPA how you find weakness in some of your equipment or see others who have equipment issues, we learn from all of it. Also when you have to start shooting and moving etc its much different then standing at a range shooting at a piece of paper. Training is important and everyone who carries a gun should train as much as possible.

David

[ZAT]

Take whichever one youndecide is/will be your primary defensive weapon. Take a backup of the same caliber. No sense in having to get two cases of ammo to lug along.

[bshizzle]

HK 45

[ayrton]

You will be learning defensive skills at school that you will be able to use no matter what gun you shoot, as long as you shoot it well and practice regularly with it. I recommend the 9mm because you'll be shooting LOTS of rounds over a few days, a much higher volume of rounds than you probably regularly fire and it will be easier on your hands, especially if you use the Expert. 1000 rounds of .45 hardball vs 1000 rounds of 9mm ball over a few days results in a lot more soreness for your hands. After you learn new skills at school or reinforce those you already have you can practice them with whatever gun/caliber you desire.

[Blackwind]

You will be learning defensive skills at school that you will be able to use no matter what gun you shoot, as long as you shoot it well and practice regularly with it.

Good point.

Personally, I'd bring two if not three firearms to class....thats just me. All the same caliber. Having said that, the 9mm may be the best choice for a variety of reasons.

Being a masochist I'd bring along the HK45 to run in through a great class and real world scenarios. Nothing like a good class to force to become that much more familiar with a new gun.

[softmentor]

Well the cost did enter my mind but it isn't that much more. I am wanting to get the most from this trip since it is going to cost a lot when all said and done. I am all for saving a few bucks but not sure that is the right way to go, decisions decisions!!!!

+1 ditto on cost and taking the 9mm, but take what you will use in a real life situation if your ever in a situation where your life depends on it. In the stress of a real life threat, you will do what you have practiced.

[hkhound]

If dtibbals is willing to purchase a second HK45 to have as a backup gun, then ammo costs are probably irrelevant. Trigger time with the gun you are going to use if your life depends on it is what is most important- lots of trigger time.

Practice under stress: get some airsoft guns and shoot force on force or buy some paintball guns and buy a few hay bails or head to the woods or a local paintball field.

Tactical training and competitve shooting (IDPA not race gun IPSC) are both good- its about speed and shot placement. Why do think some of the best "high speed, low drag" units train with guys like Jerry Barnhart and others- its about speed and shot placement. You practice, practice, practice to build muscle memory- muscle memory is subconscious, it become reflexive and that is what may save you or someone else's life.... my $0.02's

[dtibbals]

If dtibbals is willing to purchase a second HK45 to have as a backup gun, then ammo costs are probably irrelevant. Trigger time with the gun you are going to use if your life depends on it is what is most important- lots of trigger time.

Practice under stress: get some airsoft guns and shoot force on force or buy some paintball guns and buy a few hay bails or head to the woods or a local paintball field.

Tactical training and competitve shooting (IDPA not race gun IPSC) are both good- its about speed and shot placement. Why do think some of the best "high speed, low drag" units train with guys like Jerry Barnhart and others- its about speed and shot placement. You practice, practice, practice to build muscle memory- muscle memory is subconscious, it become reflexive and that is what may save you or someone else's life.... my $0.02's

Yup your 100% correct. I feel the same way, I shoot IDPA and other sports involving a pistol. I want to get better at shooting a pistol beyond shooting at stationary paper targets at an indoor range. This class is going to take me to another level. I have won IDPA matches before and usually always place in or towards the top. I want to improve upon my skills in using a pistol, those skills can come into play in competition shooting and saving a life (I hope this is never needed!!).

Yea I don't intend to sound bad but cost is not a big deal. If this was a several thousand dollar gun then maybe I would think twice about buying a second one as a back up. I will probably take 3 guns total, two of which will be the HK45. I am visiting family back in Kansas all week and brought the HK45 with me to spend some real time with it. I am going to put about a 1000 rounds through it this week when I have time to kill and see what I really think about it. I have only shot around 30 rounds through it and like it but I really want to understand this pistol before I put it in the defensive role.

Dave

[hkhound]

Good luck in your class at FrontSight. Some time back, I attended a subgun class there- had a lot of fun and learned some stuff as well. Merry Xmas.