Lem

[murfdog]

Looking to buy a P2000sk my question is what is the best trigger lem or standered.This may be a silly question for most of you pros.The lem was $150 less than the other?Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

[gearjockey]

That depends on how You intend to use this pistol. Just last week I bought a P2ksk 9mm in LEM and will use this primarily for ccw. I never actually live fired the SK prior to buying it but I dry fired it at the store and found the LEM trigger to be very appealing both in ease of use and feel. It's almost too light, actually. Btw, I'm left handed so I appreciate the ambi controls on it as well. The sales guy sold Me on the fact that it's possible to "back off" on the LEM trigger if one decided not to fire on every potential stroke. I'm not sure if that's why it's called the Law enforcement modification (lem) but it makes sense. My other ccw piece is a sig p239 .40 DA/SA. Some thoughts I've had since comparing these two pistols are: Maybe it's more reassuring (for Me:390: ) to have a harder first pull like on DA/SA. I really didn't consider that aspect prior to purchasing the HK. OTOH, less stuff to monkey with for ccw with the LEM (no decocker). These are issues I understood after sitting down at home with both pistols and really comparing the two without all the distractions in the showroom. Train with what You fight with, I suppose.

[H&K 4 LIFE]

LEM is called as such because the pistol can be carried with a round in the chamber and no manual safety without worry of accedental discharge. The long DA trigger stroke is what keeps the pistol safe, which means the pistol can be drawn and fired without disengaging manual safetys. It also means a consistent trigger pull from the first round to the last.

If your finger is contacting the trigger then you intend to fire. There is no going back at that point, and LEM was never intended to make "backing off" the trigger an option.

DA/SA or LEM is personal preference. If you are used to DA/SA triggers the LEM maybe hard for you to use.

[Lazarus]

I was going to ask this same question. My main concern is the effect the LEM trigger has on accuracy. I have seen 2 post where people either didn't practice or was no used to the LEM and it effected their accuracy.

[JLStorm]

To lem or not to lem...that is the question, and my answer is always only by the lem if you are going to go lem the majority of the time. If you are constantly switching between platforms I think the lem will be more of a handicap than an advantage.

If this is a carry piece that its a major issue, if its just a range toy then its not a big deal. Along with the reasons already mentioned, I find the lem nice because in the heat of the moment I do not have to worry about flipping off a safety, generally while practicing drawing and firing I would partially miss, or not hit the safety hard enough approx. 1 out of 20 times, that was one of the main things that brought me to the lem.

I find its a wonderful trigger system and all my HKs are now LEM, HK is also all that I carry. Its a love hate thing and you really need to try it out for yourself, but if this is going to be one of several pistols you carry and/or traing with, my advice would be to skip the lem.

[Lazarus]

Storm I have a 1911 and a XD both being single action. I don't get out to shoot much but was thinking about getting a LEM SK. Do you recommend against it? Sometimes I go months without shooting.

[Lazarus]

I was looking at HK's site last night and both the LEM and the DA/SA has the same poundage for trigger pulls. Is the distance in the length of travel?

[MaverickH1]

The LEM does not have the same pound pull as the SA/DA. Let me try to break it down for you.

For the Variant 3 SA/DA of the P2000 series, the double action is about 12 pounds while the single action is about 4.5.

For the variant 2 LEM of the P2000 series, the LEM is about 8 pounds. The variant 2 is almost always the one you see for sale.

There is a modification that can convert the Variant 2 LEM to a Variant 1 LEM, which makes it 4.5 pounds by swapping out the trigger return spring and the firing pin block spring. There is also another variant where you swap only one the trigger return spring, and that makes it 5.5 pounds.

The difference in the feel of the LEM is that it has a longer takeup that is light and smooth, and then an 8 pound break. After the trigger breaks and the weapon fires, holding the trigger backwards you have two options.

Option 1, you can release the trigger all the way to its initial position and have the same exact pull again.

Option 2, you can release just past the reset and pull the trigger again. This allows for quicker follow up shots. The reset is much shorter than a traditional double action, but a little longer than the reset on a single action gun.

LEM has the advantage of restrike capability and safety of a double action only, in that it is a long, slightly heavy pull. And it has the advantage of a single action because it has quick follow up shots, and a lighter pull than the traditional double action.

But understand that the LEM still does have two different trigger weights. If nothing goes wrong when firing, you should only feel the 8 pound break. However, if you hit a round that does not fire, and the slide isn't cycled, then the hammer spring has not been precocked and you will have a very heavy (14 pounds or so) pull all the way through. This is the pull you'd have to use to restrike a round. It is also the pull you would feel if you cycled the slide, dry fired the gun, and then pulled the trigger again without cycling the slide.

[Lazarus]

Thanks Mav for REALLY breaking it down. I see now what you were talking about with practicing with the 14lb pull. I was looking to order one last night from Buds but they are sold out of the 9mm.

[JLStorm]

Storm I have a 1911 and a XD both being single action. I don't get out to shoot much but was thinking about getting a LEM SK. Do you recommend against it? Sometimes I go months without shooting.


Honestly, if you plan to carry it I would say you would want to shoot 85% - 90% LEM in order to avoid confusion under stress. If you dont think that will be the case then I think the LEM could cause more harm than good. If you are used to SA and go to LEM and are not fully used to it or constantly swap between the trigger systems, I think you will be all over the place when trying to do rapid fire drills or even simple follow up shots. The light uptake and momentary heavier weight at the break point will screw most people up who are not used to it.

just my .02.

[MaverickH1]

The LEM does take a bit of trigger time to get comfortable with.

But if you practice enough with it, you'll do fine and you will be able to shoot the other guns very well since the LEM will get you into good trigger habits.

[Lazarus]

Honestly, if you plan to carry it I would say you would want to shoot 85% - 90% LEM in order to avoid confusion under stress. If you dont think that will be the case then I think the LEM could cause more harm than good. If you are used to SA and go to LEM and are not fully used to it or constantly swap between the trigger systems, I think you will be all over the place when trying to do rapid fire drills or even simple follow up shots. The light uptake and momentary heavier weight at the break point will screw most people up who are not used to it.

just my .02.

Thanks. I need the input from you guys because I just dont know. Buds do have a V3 9mm though...

[MaverickH1]

Thanks. I need the input from you guys because I just dont know. Buds do have a V3 9mm though...

I will say that I think it will be harder for you to go from a 1911, to an XD, and then to a DA V3 P2000sk.

The P2000sk is designed to only be carried decocked, so your first trigger pull will be of the 12 pound variety and will be a long pull. That's a long cry from your XD and 1911. The 1911 is a short/crisp pull, the XD is a slightly longer, heavier, crisp pull. The LEM would be the next step up to a longer, heavier, crisp pull. Then the traditional 12 pound DA would be quite a jump, and the trigger feel will change after the first shot. Something you won't be used to.

You may be better off getting something else, like an XD or subcompact 1911 if you're concerned about the trigger.

But if you give the LEM some time and consistently dry fire and practice, you will have no problem with it. Just keep practicing with it.

[JLStorm]

I will say that I think it will be harder for you to go from a 1911, to an XD, and then to a DA V3 P2000sk.

The P2000sk is designed to only be carried decocked, so your first trigger pull will be of the 12 pound variety and will be a long pull. That's a long cry from your XD and 1911. The 1911 is a short/crisp pull, the XD is a slightly longer, heavier, crisp pull. The LEM would be the next step up to a longer, heavier, crisp pull. Then the traditional 12 pound DA would be quite a jump, and the trigger feel will change after the first shot. Something you won't be used to.

You may be better off getting something else, like an XD or subcompact 1911 if you're concerned about the trigger.

But if you give the LEM some time and consistently dry fire and practice, you will have no problem with it. Just keep practicing with it.


Just make sure you dont forget about the safety you still have on your 1911 or the safety you dont have on the LEM. When I switched from SA to LEM I kept trying to switch off a safety that wasnt there before I shot which slowed me down....Like Maverick said...practice practice practice. If you practice enough you should be ok...its just that so many people dont seem to practice enough to be comfortable with one platform, let alone two...

[Lazarus]

I would carry the SK exclusively and I would practice with it enough to become profiencent without a doubt, its the in between range trips I'm kinda worried about. I'm a gun nut though. Sometimes when I'm sitting here working I grab my 1911 from the desk drawer and just start pointing and shooting. I know if I were to get a new gun I'd be dry firing like crazy just because I wouldnt be able to put it down.

[H&K 4 LIFE]

After yesterdays range trip with a relatives P2000 9mm LEM I am beginning to warm up to this trigger a bit more. It will still never feel like a DA/SA to me and I realize this, and I also still have no interest in making my own guns LEM, but it is still a nice smooth and innovative trigger.

The whole secret to it, as Mav described, is to let the trigger just goto it's reset point and then squeeze to fire again. If you let the trigger go all the way forward you are losing alot of the quickness of this trigger system. Also, for me this makes it feel more like a SA pull which makes me more comfortable with it. I can see how this could be a very safe and quick trigger system if one were to become proficient with it.

I would squeeze slowly, then release the trigger just a little to the reset point, and then just a short squeeze to fire again. This took alot of the DAO feel out of the equation and made me a better shot with this gun. However, I still feel it is best with the LEM to "try before you buy" if at all possible.

[murfdog]

:53: I thank for $150 less I'll practice with the lem get use to it and make it my carry gun.Thanks for all the input,this is why I enjoy this forum so much lots of different opinions + you can't have to many H&K firearms right?The P2sk is a nice carry size next on the list is a P30 then HK45C.Thanks again.

[Finleyville]

The P2000sk is designed to only be carried decocked, so your first trigger pull will be of the 12 pound variety and will be a long pull.

Why is this so? I currently carry the USP LEM cocked ready to fire while on duty. Why is the P2000 LEM designed to be carried differently? I am asking because I am looking to purchase a P2000sk for CCW off-duty and wanted an almost exact system of firing and controls.

[MaverickH1]

Why is this so? I currently carry the USP cocked ready to fire while on duty. Why is the P2000 LEM designed to be carried differently? I am asking because I am looking to purchase a P2000sk for CCW off-duty and wanted an almost exact system of firing and controls.

It has no safety. That's the only reason.

There has been some debate about whether it is safe or not to carry it cocked and unlocked. I'll leave it to you to find those threads.

[STW]

The P2000 V3 is the one meant to be carried only decocked. The LEM is LEM all the time unless as previously stated it has a FTF and you believe in restriking the primer. The LEM is the absolute best combat trigger out there. It is very accurate for fast stressfull shooting combining the best of both worlds. Consider the biggest difference between it and DA/SA is that you never have to worry about decocking before reholstering and your first shot, while the trigger will move the same distance will be about 1/4 as hard untill you get to the single action portion of it. Any skill at manipulating a trigger and you should be able to master the LEM in no time.

[mkivbb]

i prefer LEM. they feel better to me. plus you can always just change it back if you don't like it.

[murfdog]

The LEM does take a bit of trigger time to get comfortable with.

But if you practice enough with it, you'll do fine and you will be able to shoot the other guns very well since the LEM will get you into good trigger habits. Shot my new P2sk Lem OMG all my future H&Ks will be Lem no question about it.You were so right, about 10 rds to get a feel but I'm hooked,went thought about 150 rds.BY the last 50 or so I was really driving tacks at a fairly rapid pace, MaverickH1 you were so right I'm so glad I went with the Lem Thanks for the heads up.:61:

[MaverickH1]

You're very welcome. I'm glad to hear you had a positive experience. Most people can't even get used to it after 200 rounds and just throw the LEM system under the bus because of their experience. Some get it and love it, some don't. Some don't even give it a chance.

I'm glad you did.

[HKTSM]

I have a P2K SK .40 LEM and to be honest I don't really like the trigger BUT I still have it because it is for CCW and think it is superior for that application. I didn't get it for fun at the range.

[snakyjake]

I have a P2K SK .40 LEM and to be honest I don't really like the trigger BUT I still have it because it is for CCW and think it is superior for that application. I didn't get it for fun at the range.

Could you please explain your experience with LEM as a CCW vs. the range?

I'm guessing you like the LEM without the safety for CCW. But not sure why you wouldn't like the LEM for the range.

Thanks.

[H&K 4 LIFE]

I was looking at HK's site last night and both the LEM and the DA/SA has the same poundage for trigger pulls. Is the distance in the length of travel?

Don't look at those charts, they are all mis-aligned and messed up. The one for the Combat Comp. is really screwed up. Take a look, you'll see what I mean. ;)

[Gerber]

I have no idea why anyone wouldn't like the LEm trigger. I had shot it only once before and I loved it, which is why my first HK has it. It's smooth and couldn't figure out what the trouble is that some have. Is it the reset issue? Or something else? Very smooth and light. I just have to work on my grip, stance and trigger finger control.

[H&K 4 LIFE]

The LEM was hard for me to get used to at first. My problem was it is just so different from DA/SA that it initially felt very strange to me. The massive amount of take-up before the trigger broke made it hard for me to shoot. It wasn't at all like the SA triggers I am used to, where the breaking point is short and obvious. Also, reset is everything with the LEM. When I didn't know this, I was releasing the trigger all the way forward before pulling again, which was defeating the main facet of the LEM that makes it so nice.

Since then, and with alot more practice using my uncles P2000 9mm LEM, the LEM trigger has grown on me tenfold. Using the short reset I find it is actually very much like a SA trigger. Initially I would have never purchased my own HK with LEM, now I am a convert and I believe in the potential of this trigger setup.

I am looking into a P2000sk 9mm LEM as my next purchase down the road. My bank account is still recovering from the P7M8. :D

[murfdog]

I have a P2K SK .40 LEM and to be honest I don't really like the trigger BUT I still have it because it is for CCW and think it is superior for that application. I didn't get it for fun at the range.

It's my CCW gun, so does that mean I can't have fun at the range with it.Like MaverickH1 said some people like them some don't I like mine. Also the more fun I have at the range the better I'll be able to handle it in a critical situation.I'm a believer the more you practice the better you get. :61:

[murfdog]

You're very welcome. I'm glad to hear you had a positive experience. Most people can't even get used to it after 200 rounds and just throw the LEM system under the bus because of their experience. Some get it and love it, some don't. Some don't even give it a chance.

I'm glad you did.

+1 Thanks again! :61:

[murfdog]

Don't look at those charts, they are all mis-aligned and messed up. The one for the Combat Comp. is really screwed up. Take a look, you'll see what I mean. ;)

+1 just shoot it!

[HKTSM]

Could you please explain your experience with LEM as a CCW vs. the range?

I'm guessing you like the LEM without the safety for CCW. But not sure why you wouldn't like the LEM for the range.

Thanks.

Yes I like the lack of an external safety- plus I don't want to have to deal with/worry about decocker- not to mention same trigger pull every time.

I just don't think it's as smooth as a DA/SA. I have the V2 which is ~8 pounds every time vs. a ~5 pounds after cocking a V3. Yes I know I can convert it to a V1 and get the 5 pound pull but I don't feel comfortable carrying a pistol with no external safety with this light of a pull (go ahead and slam me now 'cause I know ton's of people will say it's just as safe- just don't put your finger on the trigger- but it's just how I feel.) I would if I carried in a OWB no problem but I actually use a Smartcarry at 3 O'clock- i know unconventional but it works really well for me.... Flame away......