Short .45 barrel length for self defense?

[snakyjake]

My question is in regards to short barrel length of a .45. I've read a short barrel length of a .45 can greatly affect barrel velocity, therefore an assumption might be made to the effectiveness for self defense.

A person may assume a short barrel length will affect penetration and expansion, and perhaps even more so if the bad guy is wearing winter clothing.

At what length does a .45 lose too much velocity to be effective for self defense?

To be very specific, when does a .45 barrel length become less effective than a 357sig P2000 SK (or other high velocity calibers)? The specific pistols in mind are Para's Warthog (3") and HK45C (3.94").

I don't want to start a caliber war, this is more about short barrel length effectiveness. Most information that I've read when comparing calibers is done with service pistols (for LEM), not compact pistols.

Thank you,

Jake

[Catalina]

I can't help you but I would like to throw my two pennies in.

For defensive handgun use in an urban environment I can't bring myself to care about the impact on velocity from different barrel lengths. Bullet technology has come a long way to make 3", 3.5", 3.90" 4.0", 4.25", 5.0" any real difference for defensive CCW.

Shot placement matters exponentially more than 1,150 fps versus 980 fps.

I feel just as armed with a Para Ordnance Slim-Hawg, a Springfield Armory Champion, or a Colt Government loaded with Hornady TAP ammo.

Ditto for P2000 or P2000SK in .40S&W, and Glock 17 or Glock 26.

[MaD HuNGaRIaN]

While I agree.......


I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel more armed with my Mark 23 than I do with my P2KSK.

But, they each serve a different purpose. Can't rightly conceal the Mark 23 in shorts and a t-shirt ROFL.

Incidentally, I practice 10 times more with the SK.

[softmentor]

Here is an article from Guns&Ammo with test of HK with a 4 1/4 inch barrel in a sandbag rest compaired to a 1911 with a 5 inch barrel in a gun vise.
Personal opinion? While the longer barrel does give higher velocities, even a 2 inch barrel is deadly, especially at the close ranges that would account for self defence.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/winchester_ranger/

"I ran the 230-grain Ranger SXT loads through two different .45 ACP pistols. The guns were my vintage 4 1/4-inch H&K P9 and a newer Kimber Custom Target with the standard-length five-inch barrel. I mounted the Kimber in a Ransom Master machine rest for the range sessions but fired the H&K off of a Dog-Gone-Good sandbag while seated on my rock-solid BR Pivot shooting bench. I set up the target at 25 yards and the Oehler 35P skyscreens 15 feet from the muzzle in each case. I set up a second Oehler 35P at the target, and the skyscreens caught the slugs about a foot in front of the 25-yard target. The temperatures ran in the mid-60s throughout the testing, and winds were light.

As would be expected, the Kimber with its five-inch barrel most closely duplicated the published Winchester ballistics, delivering 914-fps average, with an extreme spread of 33 fps and standard deviation of 10 fps. The instrumental energy ran 426.6 ft-lbs At 25 yards the Kimber's shots maintained 893 fps and 407.2 ft-lbs of energy.
Five 5-shot groups averaged a respectable 2.98 inches with the best group running 1.75 inches. There were no malfunctions in the Kimber.

To extract the most from the open sights on the H&K, I slipped on my best target-style shooting glasses, complete with adjustable aperture and magnification lens over the shooting eye and an opaque blinder over the left eye. I sat down on the BR Pivot, gritted my teeth and had at it. When the smoke cleared, it was refreshing to note that I could still outshoot the Ransom Rest, although not by much. At any rate, the 4 1/4-inch H&K managed to account for five 5-shot groups that averaged 2.69 inches center to center, and it launched the 230-grain SXT bullets at 814 fps, average. The extreme spread ran 52 fps, and the standard deviation for 20 of the 25 shots ran 12 fps. At 25 yards the H&K/Ranger combo accounted for 797 fps. The H&K produced instrumental energy levels of 338.3 ft-lbs with 324.3 ft-lbs remaining at the target. Again, there were no malfunctions of any kind with the H&K."

You can see the full article at the link above.

[Big Bore]

The way I look it is who cares if the .45 expands at all anyway? It still punches a hole big enough to let lots of air in and blood out to make even the most determined BG consider a rapid career change.
A .40 must expand 13% and a 9mm must expand 27% just to equal the UNEXPANDED diameter of the .45 round. That's big enough for me!

[givo08]

If you look at some jello testing online, you'll notice a lot of standard 230 grain JHP's don't expand reliably out of shorter barrelled .45's (<5"). I would personally stick to +p and lighter weight bullets (185-200 grain) in a shorter barreled .45. Also, some manufacturers make loads specificly designed to expand out of short barrels. Here's an example:

http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/short_brl.aspx

A corbon rep posts on the www.stoppingpower.net forums and says that they design all of their ammo to expand out of short barrels as well.

[LongDuck]

Some really great information was captured in this summary posted a long time ago - have a look and see if it adds to your discussion.

http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59268&highlight=45+ACP

Here is the gist of the data (note that numerical sequence of the data in the table is NOT barrel length):
http://i15.tinypic.com/334swnt.jpg

[archwind]

I would personally stick to +p and lighter weight bullets (185-200 grain) in a shorter barreled .45.

Exactly. 185 grain +p's in .45. Never conducted my own tests but common sense would indicate much higher initial velocity than with 230 grain std. JHP's. Most likely sufficient to obtain proper expansion.

Thanks for the links!

[F22_RaptoR]

The way I look it is who cares if the .45 expands at all anyway? It still punches a hole big enough to let lots of air in and blood out to make even the most determined BG consider a rapid career change.
A .40 must expand 13% and a 9mm must expand 27% just to equal the UNEXPANDED diameter of the .45 round. That's big enough for me!

+1.


Bigger holes = faster road to fatal drop in blood pressure.

[RX7-2nr]

45auto uses such fast burning powder- i imagine it would be effected by a shorter barrel much less than other calibers.

look at the velocitys guys are getting using factory loads out of a USC with a 16" barrel.

[snakyjake]

In response to .45 making a larger diameter hole...

Yes, a .45 makes a larger hole, but it may not penetrate as deep as a 357sig (or other high velocity cartridges) when fired from a 3" or 3.94" barrel. For what I want, I want maximum wound cavity damage, which is the combination of the hole diameter and depth.

The .45 gives me the larger hold diameter, but out of a shorter barrel may not give me the depth for the wound cavity. Hence, the question I have.

Ideally, I'd like to find clothed gelatin tests that compare barrel length and different bullet grains.

Interesting comments about a 230 vs. 185+P grain bullet. I need to learn more about the differences and what it means for self defense, recoil control, bad guy damage.

[H&K 4 LIFE]

...Ideally, I'd like to find clothed gelatin tests that compare barrel length and different bullet grains...

Ask and you shall recieve...
http://www.brassfetcher.com/45ACP.html

These tests indicate most .45 rounds fired from 3"-4" barrels are penetrating the required 12" into the gelatin. However, when shot through 4 layers of denim, the shots do not seem to be expanding at all regardless of bullet weight.