HK P2000 with RFID tracking chip in it?

[G36gunner]

I don't know if it's been posted already, but apparently someone claims to have found some type of microchip or transponder in the P2000. Any truth to this?

http://www.hk-usa.com/wforum/viewtopic.php?t=1584&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2377/2196256484_ff0c23b758.jpg

[IMTHESKI]

True, it is also on the HK45 as an option-it's in the HK45 manual. It doesn't track like GPS. It stores info like round count, what shelf it is stored on an so on. The question I have is how do you update it? I wonder if HK makes a computer that updates it. There were a few threads about the RFID chip here on HKPRO.COM.

[Gerber]

I suppose that's pretty cool. I have a few questions, though:

1) Who has access to this information?

2) What purpose does this information serve to those (other than the
user/owner) who can access this information?

3) Can the user/owner access this information themselves?

[Scooter]

RFID's are pretty much a requirement with most products that are shipped to the government. Next you will start seeing UID which is a machine and human readable 2D dot matrix code.

[BreakerDave]

1) Who has access to this information?

Anyone with the proper RFID scanner can read it. A few years ago, a Canadian company, Samsys, was working on a universal reader but they merged with another company, Sirit (I think)...

2) What purpose does this information serve to those (other than the user/owner) who can access this information?

It depends on how sophisticated the chip is and what kind of info it can transmit after being interrogated by a scanner/reader. In the context of the military, LE, or even a regular gun range with a rental counter, it makes a lot of sense to want to be able scan the gun to get an accurate round count on the firearm. Even in a civilian warranty service situation it could make a lot of sense for H&K. However, for the average civilian customer it probably is an unwanted intrusion into their privacy. Who wants an active record of one's activities available to anyone with the correct RFID scanner?

3) Can the user/owner access this information themselves? Without the proper hardware, I would doubt it...

[Gerber]

Thanks BreakerDave! After mentioning the part about LE, Military, etc., that makes sense i.e. if there is a police shooting scenario. I would think this could be good as far as when buying a used weapon, you can find out how many rounds have really been fired. However, if the chipped could be cleared, that would be useless. I wonder though, if it would work like an IP address for network printers, just plug in your weapons' serial number and it shows a record of use. This would be useful to the owner/user for scheduled cleanings, or replacing parts, etc. Then again, if you really take care of your firearm and are familiar with it, this process woudl be redundant.

[H&K 4 LIFE]

I hope this thing never makes it into the civillian pistol market. Scarey stuff IMHO.

[MueveloNYC]

No need to be scared. I've worked on a few RFID projects for both Walmart and DoD mandate. These are "dummy" RIFD's which essentially are nothing more than barcodes. They simply only have the information that tells the serial # and that's it. (Once they read the serial #, they could connect to a database and extrapolate information such as make, model #, if they had such data, or match it to a purchase order that the DoD purchased in bulk to make sure they have what they ordered). It's a contactless reader, but because it's a dummy RFID it requires a high powered antenna and very close proximity to pull that serial number. If you have an office that has those cards that you wave over something (it usually has to be pretty close) those are the same type of dummy RFID's except older.

Since these firearms are also going to be sold to the DoD, it has to fulfill the DoD mandate that anything being sold to the DoD have RFID so that they can inventory faster.

These RFID's also can be disabled easily using a traditional degausser (like the ones they use in the store to deactivate RFID tags - but the general public call them antitheft stickers). Did you know that your credit cards all now have dummy RFID on them? Visa and Amex have been advertising it on TV (that thing where you tap your credit card to pay).

[Scooter]

Passports have RFID tags on them too.

[ZAT]

That sucks on so many levels its not even funny. Fortunately the melt point for the resins used to make frames is high enough to preclude overmolding so for tv time being we will see them and can break them as we see fit. I noticed the spot for one on my HK45 last night when I was cleaning mine. Didn't know what it was for though. Guess I am going to have to read the manual so see what it said.

RFID tags aren't all that passive nor do they require contact distance to receive and transmit data. There at el cheap models that can penetrate up to 36" of wet dirt used to mark underground cables, closures, ducting... Doesn't mean that the units that HK is deploying are high tech ones, but it does make one thing. All a crook would need is a scanner and he would immediately know who the CHL holders in a room were. I can see these things being marketed as security measures, like etched glass on cars. Let's enter the registered owners name address... so that if it gets stolen it can be returned faster. Blah blah blah. Maybe somehow they can add for the children in there just for good measure.

[230GrainRemedy]

I found one of those things in my HK and black helicopters follow me everywhere I go... should I be worried?

But on a serious note, CA Governor Ahhnold signed the microprint stamping of shell cases into law, soon all firearms sold in CA will have to be equipped this way. If it's not our DOJ safe list, it's microprinting of your serial number on the shell casings... all in the name of crime reduction. Watch all the other communist states that tow the line behind CA subscribe to it as well.

[ulose2]

I hope this thing never makes it into the civillian pistol market. Scarey stuff IMHO.

This is one of the worst things to happen to our rights. I have heard that the anti-second amendment organizations tried to compromise this several years ago. This is not a benefit to us. All the years we have enjoyed our guns we never needed info on round counts/usage...Come on....

[Weirdguy]

If anyone is really worried about RFID chips a blow with a hammer will wipe them right out. Works for passports too.

[H&K 4 LIFE]

This specific chip is not what worries me, it is what can possibly be furthur evolved from this concept that does. The evolution of computer chips in pistols may come to actually controling the workings of the pistol as well as harmlessly recording data. This is what scares me, an electronic means of locking out the pistol. That is not a road I want to see HK or any other firearms manufactuer venture down.

[Weirdguy]

This specific chip is not what worries me, it is what can possibly be furthur evolved from this concept that does. The evolution of computer chips in pistols may come to actually controling the workings of the pistol as well as harmlessly recording data. This is what scares me, an electronic means of locking out the pistol. That is not a road I want to see HK or any other firearms manufactuer venture down.

You might have to worry then...HK currently holds a patent for a biometric locking device in a handgun. Hopefully they never use it.

[MueveloNYC]

That sucks on so many levels its not even funny. Fortunately the melt point for the resins used to make frames is high enough to preclude overmolding so for tv time being we will see them and can break them as we see fit. I noticed the spot for one on my HK45 last night when I was cleaning mine. Didn't know what it was for though. Guess I am going to have to read the manual so see what it said.

RFID tags aren't all that passive nor do they require contact distance to receive and transmit data. There at el cheap models that can penetrate up to 36" of wet dirt used to mark underground cables, closures, ducting... Doesn't mean that the units that HK is deploying are high tech ones, but it does make one thing. All a crook would need is a scanner and he would immediately know who the CHL holders in a room were. I can see these things being marketed as security measures, like etched glass on cars. Let's enter the registered owners name address... so that if it gets stolen it can be returned faster. Blah blah blah. Maybe somehow they can add for the children in there just for good measure.

Do you have any idea how much microwave energy it would take to do that? The most powerful readers that we have that can pick up tags just 10 feet away for pallet itemizing push out over 400 Watts. It's not a simple pocket device that can scan an entire room. You need a ton of energy to pass over the air. The heavy duty tags used on bonded truck containers that can penetrate concrete are incredibly expensive and require it's own power. EPC also runs a good site on letting the public know about RFID's. Don't believe the scare mongering...

If you really hate it, just remove it or degauss it. It's not that hard. The only reason HK is using it is to sell them to the US Government as it's required.

I'm more annoyed with the chips in my credit card, and had those degaussed. Now THOSE have way too much data on them (name, credit card #, exp date). Yes, they are encrypted, but anyone who is in the electronic security business knows what happened at DefCon, HOPE, and other 2600-esque demonstrations with this stuff. I'm not going to detail any more than that for obvious reasons.

[ZAT]

Do you have any idea how much microwave energy it would take to do that? The most powerful readers that we have that can pick up tags just 10 feet away for pallet itemizing push out over 400 Watts. It's not a simple pocket device that can scan an entire room. You need a ton of energy to pass over the air. The heavy duty tags used on bonded truck containers that can penetrate concrete are incredibly expensive and require it's own power. EPC also runs a good site on letting the public know about RFID's. Don't believe the scare mongering....

I was not implying that a whole room can be scanned at once, but that someone can walk around a target area with say a laptop and see whose carrying or who isnt.

Its not scare mongering. Its the truth. I worked on them for a couple of years. Not the electronic side of things, but the mechanical protection and attachment of them onto buried cables and other devices. Handheld reader about the size of an old cell phone, you know the ones slightly smaller than the bag phones of old, can read them under water, under snow, ground... The RFID device was the size of a dime with an antenna the size of a child's pinky. The neato feature on them was read write capability i.e you could locate the enclosure read who what and when it was last opened then replace that data with your particulars. That was 10 years ago and I doubt that technology has gotten sloppy over that decade.

That is not to say that HK is using super duper RFID chips to track gun owners, and in all likelyhood is an inventory control item meant to help departments manage their inventory.

Still reeks of Bib Brother to me, but then I am more distrusting of these kinds of things than most people.

[ulose2]

I was not implying that a whole room can be scanned at once, but that someone can walk around a target area with say a laptop and see whose carrying or who isnt.

Its not scare mongering. Its the truth. I worked on them for a couple of years. Not the electronic side of things, but the mechanical protection and attachment of them onto buried cables and other devices. Handheld reader about the size of an old cell phone, you know the ones slightly smaller than the bag phones of old, can read them under water, under snow, ground... The RFID device was the size of a dime with an antenna the size of a child's pinky. The neato feature on them was read write capability i.e you could locate the enclosure read who what and when it was last opened then replace that data with your particulars. That was 10 years ago and I doubt that technology has gotten sloppy over that decade.

That is not to say that HK is using super duper RFID chips to track gun owners, and in all likelyhood is an inventory control item meant to help departments manage their inventory.

Still reeks of Bib Brother to me, but then I am more distrusting of these kinds of things than most people.

+1,

[cueist]

How many times must it be said. These chips are for LE, Govt, and Military firearms only!!!

[spyder1439]

i do know that several le agencies in nj are working on smart weapons that only the user can fire - kinda like the judge dredd movie - they use chips in the gun to id the owner or something. - not a bad idea considering im a leo and it would give me more piece of mind knowing that im the only person that can fire my gun - however nothing beats training and practice on weapon retention - dont let the dirt bag get your gun in the first place and no worries. as for the registering of the weapon and even the micro printing im not worried cuz im not gonna be out there killing people or doing anyhting im not suppossed to be doin so i dont care who knows how many times i shoot or if im carrying a wepon or not. when it comes to being able to shut down or disable weapons then im against it.

[kevins_garage]

This specific chip is not what worries me, it is what can possibly be furthur evolved from this concept that does. The evolution of computer chips in pistols may come to actually controling the workings of the pistol as well as harmlessly recording data. This is what scares me, an electronic means of locking out the pistol. That is not a road I want to see HK or any other firearms manufactuer venture down.

You mean evolved into something like this?

http://www.livescience.com/technology/071010-onstar-police.html

[SudS]

I found one of those things in my HK and black helicopters follow me everywhere I go... should I be worried?



Not to worry...we've been following you long before you got the HK. :170000:

If some are worried now, wait until our cars are full of these things and sensors are placed at various (numerous) locations "for security purposes." There's many useful applications for these on cars, it's going to happen, if they aren't on cars already.

[jboro76]

Originally post by Spyder1439
as for the registering of the weapon and even the micro printing im not worried cuz im not gonna be out there killing people or doing anyhting im not suppossed to be doin

I know what you are saying, but what about the BG that collects a few spent casings from a gun you fired at a range and didn't pick up, with your microstamp and places them at a crime scene.. It's going to make things more confusing, using up more of your time and costing us more money.

come to think of it putting licenses on cars has stopped criminals from stealing cars, from using cars for crimes, from switching licenses to mask the identity

Microstamping will affect every gun owner, in the very least we will be the ones paying for it...

[DuceAnAHalf]

Microstamping wont effect criminals. People who dont care about the laws against shooting people wont care about the law that prevents them from filing off the negative of the serial number in their stolen pistol

[MueveloNYC]

If it really bothers you that much, you can degauss the chip or rip it out. Shorting the chip with a AA battery should fry it enough as those things can only handle small amounts of power through induction. They have very small micro-capacitors that'll blow with a AA battery. LOL There's other methods too. Google has lots of good info. :)

But in the end these chips are for DoD inventory receipt. No harm.

Remember in the 80's the whole thing about barcodes? Someone can scan your case with the barcode on the outside of your HK case and get your serial #! Actually there's software now for camera phones to do this discreetly now.

[HK PDX]

Not to worry...we've been following you long before you got the HK. :170000:

If some are worried now, wait until our cars are full of these things and sensors are placed at various (numerous) locations "for security purposes." There's many useful applications for these on cars, it's going to happen, if they aren't on cars already.


Cars have them now.
Google "CAN Systems"

[IMTHESKI]

I just skimmed through this thread and a lot of people are way off on this RFID thing. Think of it as a memory chip. All it does is store info. So no GPS function either. It does save info like where it is stored-if you have a couple hundred HKs this could be quite useful. The round counter doesn't count anything, it has to be entered in from a seperate machine. Example-Gun is shot 500 times at range the user then enters the 500 rounds into a machine/computer of some sort and then the chip is scanned through radio frequency and updated. So essentially this RFID is an updated logbook enabling the user to save a lot of time from updating logbooks. Nothing to worry about, if there is a product that does the GPS tracking let me know, my wife needs one for her car keys!

[Gerber]

...if there is a product that does the GPS tracking let me know, my wife needs one for her car keys!

LOL.

as far as what else you said, I wasn't worried to begin with either and this all a bunch of people being paranoid. I'm not doing anything illegal, I have nothing to worry about. As far as spent shell casings go and the imprints...stop taking The Sheild seriously it's just a television show.

[Jupiter]

I found one of those things in my HK and black helicopters follow me everywhere I go... should I be worried?



Would you think it would be a bad idea if the Government required everyone to register their guns?

[Jupiter]

How many times must it be said. These chips are for LE, Govt, and Military firearms only!!!

I think most people understand this.
But that can change in a heart beat with a stroke of a pen and an executive order! Clinton took peoples 2nd amendment rights away for a Misdemeanor Domestic Violence Conviction!

It would all be done for YOUR best interest!
You understand don't ya?

[AGAF]

I have a P2000 and have had the gun completely stripped down and have never seen one of these chips anyone in or on the gun. Does HK only include these on orders to the government, Military, and LEO?

[Ken_In_Colo]

Lets see, options for the P2000:

Night Sites
LEM trigger
USB port:730::rolleyes:

[Catalina]

This is fascinating:

Sig Sauer, a defense - related small arms manufacturing company, located in Exeter, New Hampshire, convenient to both Boston, and Portland, seeks an RFID Applications Manager with at least 7 to 10 years of relevant experience. Sig Sauer is a recognized leader within our industry and we have experienced substantial growth over the last few years. In this position, you will contribute to that growth by expanding our expertise into areas which are currently untapped.

In this position you will be responsible and accountable for:

* Managing and analyzing business opportunities, assessing markets, and making recommendations for new products and new product usages.
* Coordinate project activities with other departments and customers.
* Act as technical advisor with respect to new products and new markets

http://jobview.monster.com/GetJob.aspx?JobID=68549606

[MueveloNYC]

Would you think it would be a bad idea if the Government required everyone to register their guns?

They already do for my locale. :(

Not that I really give a crap, but it requires me to take 2 days off from work to get a new firearm (one to get a purchase order authorization form, and 2nd to register the firearm and have it inspected). It's more annoying than anything and hasn't resulted in tracking of criminals using firearms.

Most of the homicides in NYC are ones not legally registered since criminals buy their guns illegally since they're ...well... criminals!

[spyder1439]

thats right criminals dont care about the laws but also criminals arent the smartest bunch of people out there. Maybe one or two could get caught. If they use a revolver there would be no shell casing at the scene. plus the marks on the shell casing and the bullet have to match up to the marks on the gun.

[Ken_In_Colo]

thats right criminals dont care about the laws but also criminals arent the smartest bunch of people out there. Maybe one or two could get caught. If they use a revolver there would be no shell casing at the scene. plus the marks on the shell casing and the bullet have to match up to the marks on the gun.

There is a new proposed Illinois law will require ID numbers on the brass to be registered to the purchaser. No more effective than micro-imprinting an ID# on the primer by the hammer/firing pin. The law also would ban hand loading / reloading of ammo

An ID# on the actual rear end of bullet would be better but not much.

All they're gonna do is succeed in is making the perps police the crime scene for their brass (just picture that!) or the perps are just gonna switch to revolvers and take their empties w/them.

[MueveloNYC]

this law has already been passed quietly in NY over the holidays and goes into effect 2010. Guns and ammo purchased prior to 2010 will be exempt. Glock had a great statement about this that shows how ineffective this plan is:

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa288/Blitzer0101/Glocktalk/Glock-Microstamping.jpg

[cueist]

Guys lets keeps this thread concerned with HK and it's chips in the P2000, P30 and HK45, and not turn this into a disscussion about proposed bills and laws and other manufacters.

[IMTHESKI]

Does anyone have any info on the equipment that is required to update the chips information? Maybe some literature? Is it made by HKs electronics division?

[cueist]

Does anyone have any info on the equipment that is required to update the chips information? Maybe some literature? Is it made by HKs electronics division?

HK's Electronic Division no long exists.

I would imagine that the agencies that bought the firearms with the chips embeded has the nessecary equipment to read the information stored in the chip.

[MueveloNYC]

it's a "dumb" (passive) rfid tag. Write once, read many - think of it similar to your burnable CD-R. It has the serial # of the firearm and that's it. Most likely readable by most commercial RFID readers such as Metrics, Alien Technologies, or now the new big player (after much buyouts of smaller players - very smart play on their part): Symbol.

Generally dumb tags need to be made by the tag manufacturer and written to beforehand, then applied to the product it's made for. So HK would basically have a pile of serialized RFID chips that would correspond to their serial #'s for their firearms.

For more information of the DoD's mandate on suppliers selling to DoD of the implementation of passive RFID's tags, there's a document available here:
http://www.productivitybyrfid.com/dod/DoD_Suppliers_Passive_RFID_Information_Guide_v9.pd f

One of the biggest benefits that's plagued the DoD is supply chain theft. Being able to track the supply and scan at various points along the supply chain through RFID readers, they know the exact point where part of the supply is missing. Previously this was not possible as it would mean taking the pallet apart and bar code scanning every item on the pallet, and every pallet on the container.

[Rocambole]

The only gun-tracking or person-tracking I am afraid of, is the one done by the government. And they can put up one powerful RFID tracker on each street corner for bottom dollar. Your passport, gun, credit card and groceries can be tracked that way from hundreds of feet away.

Criminals can steal your passport information already and put it into a stolen passport and put any picture they want into the passport and into the passport chip. Dutch hackers made a mock passport, and no flags were raised at the airport they tested it at.


All you need is read capability. After all they just want to track your every move.


This is the future, and the future is grim.



I am giving up cellphones soon too :) I am not kidding. Just can't be bothered to unpack it from the aluminum foil to make a call, plus if someone needs me then they can't reach me when the cellphone is packed in tinfoil anyway.
I am going over to UHF radios again, one big ol' antenna at home, and a plain old land phone-line at home. Might even be able to hook up some sort of remote dialing mechanism to patch from radio into my home telephone...
Free airtime too :)
The only people I need to reach unscheduled are within radio range anyway at any time, and if I am further away than usual then I will use the more powerful transceiver in my car as an intermediate link.


I do know one thing though, all my guns will be bought before any such chips or micro-stamping technology is legislated, and I am going to stock up enough reloading supplies to load hundreds of thousands of rounds for my guns... hehehehe.

[MueveloNYC]

Reading is easy - writing is a tad harder for dummy RFID tags. The ePassport is different as it's not a pure dummy password. The technology on it allows areas to be written, much like a SIM card on a phone, which is the way they attacked it. I'm not going to go into depth on how it can be cracked, but we'll leave it at that for now.

If it bothers you, just deactivate the chip by deguassing it or removing the chip. EPC (the group that oversees RFIDs) allows consumers to deactivate and remove them at will.

[MaverickH1]

How many times must it be said. These chips are for LE, Govt, and Military firearms only!!!

Well, this particular one found its way into a civilian's hands.

And we know how many pistols HK ships to the US for LE use that trickle down to the civilians...

[MueveloNYC]

Well, this particular one found its way into a civilian's hands.

And we know how many pistols HK ships to the US for LE use that trickle down to the civilians...

True - Govt inventory surplus gets sold on open market, but the RFID is completely useless without the readers and the database backend powering it. Even if someone could read it (if they had the right reader, right frequency, and the right way to decode the binary transmission), it would only yield them the serial #.

[MaverickH1]

True - Govt inventory surplus gets sold on open market, but the RFID is completely useless without the readers and the database backend powering it. Even if someone could read it (if they had the right reader, right frequency, and the right way to decode the binary transmission), it would only yield them the serial #.

Right, but if government steps it up and starts putting traces in their own guns... or heaven forbid electronic safeties and such, we stand the chance of getting the same.

That was my only point.

[Gerber]

Are we still talking abou this chip. You want to read something new and concerning, check this out:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-02-26-guns-cover_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

End of discussion and the posted link can be talked about on the paying members part of the forum. I'll get there soemday...

[Rocambole]

True - Govt inventory surplus gets sold on open market, but the RFID is completely useless without the readers and the database backend powering it. Even if someone could read it (if they had the right reader, right frequency, and the right way to decode the binary transmission), it would only yield them the serial #.



The government can still read it, track it and they have the databases to support it.

I am just waiting for the first "puppydog" report to hit the TV news channels about how some magical chip in a gun helped catch a criminal or something, and how it was such a fortune that this gun just happened to have one of those lifesaving chips inside it, and how this should be in every gun for everyones own good, just like the engine killswitch on your cars lo-jack theft tracking system or something, which will lead to this stuff becoming MANDATORY and illegal to just destroy, and illegal to remove. (and will also make electronic safety block mandatory, along with biometric recognition systems on guns...)

It all starts like this.

In my country it started with toll booths mandating electronic tags on all vehicles for "easier payment and processing", then the politicians found out they wanted to tax EVERY road mile on your car, and are now putting up the infrastructure for triangulating and tracking your vehicle at all times and places in the entire country, so they can "bill" you everywhere you go. I would replace that B with a K though.
It han't taken effect yet and our electronic privacy and data commission is fighting it, but I have no doubt it will be implemented. And as for taking your chip off, our equivalent of the NSA also found a neat way to turn cellphone masts into a ground radar system using police speed radar technology, to triangulate and track all vehicles at all times, and can position the signal from the toll-booth chips and from cellphones to within each vehicle on the road, so they know who's paying and who's not, and if you drive without paying they will dispatch highway police to get you and give you a ticket or search your car and get a dog to indicate falsely (they are trained to do this to gain access to vehicles without reason) and pick your car apart and kill you if they find guns in your car, because hey, a dog just indicated drugs and you had guns in there and were resisting arrest, so they were in their full right to shoot you in the back, mexican style. How unfortunate but they had no way of knowing your guns were legal, tough break, you get a small column in the newspaper and if anything happens to the cops it will be a 3 week payed vacation.
Oh well.
Anyway that's what would happen to me since it is absolutely forbidden for the police to detain someone in the military or militia, and we are to resist arrest with all means. I am sure you have the same rule over there too. Never the less, the police have become more "SWAT"-like in their training and equipment, and don't care about the law anymore, they arrest people before they have been identified or charged, and so they will naturally assume that anyone resisting unlawful arrest is a criminal up to no good.

Did you hear about the bright guys at the U.N. who now propose taxing your SPENDING instead of income? They want to slap a carbon tax onto every commodity, and make people pay per usage of said products, and I mean EVERYTHING under the sun.
This of course means that cash must be outlawed, because how else are they gonna keep track of your spending? And that again means that all money will be digital, but how do you protect yourself from theft with digital money? The answer, have a chip with your money installed into your wrist or somewhere, and have a fingerprint scan at the checkout.. the machine gets your RFID information and matches it against your fingerprint, and voila.. you can be tracked everywhere you go, and if you remove the chip, you don't get any food, because it doesn't work unless it's somehow in contact with something inside your flesh or bones. It could be a thermocoupling, or it could be measuring your vital signs. Anyway, sound familiare somehow?

[RyuNoKai]

I'm glad to hear that the RFID's don't have any inappropriate info on them. Just like everything else, we as American have lost our tenacity. When it involves your liberties, you cannot give in at all or compromise. It's always a stepping stone. I wouldn't mind being able to have a round count, its just more info for me to ponder when I try to get better at what I do.

And it is true about micro-stamping. There's only one company doing it, and they are backing it. Further, they also want to serialize ever cartridge, which is an idiot move designed to delay or eliminate the purchase of ammo. However, the good gun guys will reload. And then they'll ban reloading equipment.

It is unbelievable that a man's home is no longer sancrosanct. What is most astounding is that fact that the basic principle behind our laws are that a man's freedom is absolute until he infringes on another citizen's liberty; however, all non-conservative and/or progressive movements are hinged and leveraged on the removal of said liberties, traditions, and values. And EVERY time they do, it backfires and no one seemingly cares.


Here's where it's about to be in California. You go buy your ten round cap, micro-stamping, RFID installed, mag disconnected, HK45. You wait. You send in the paperwork for your ammo. You wait. You go to the range, and try to buy ammo to shoot there, but can't. You finally have your emasculated firearm, and your ammo, then you realize: I didn't buy enough ammo.

[Craiger]

Already posted awhile back:

http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80155

[MaverickH1]

Already posted awhile back:

http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80155

You know what I find kind of funny is that you just linked to a thread that's newer than this one :D

[Lone_Ranger]

HK's Electronic Division no long exists.




Does that mean, I won't be getting a H&K "Phased Plasma Rifle," anytime soon?

[xskylitox]

You know what I find kind of funny is that you just linked to a thread that's newer than this one :D

I was thinking the same thing.