Should I carry variant 3 cocked and not locked?

[snakyjake]

I've been reading through the history of posts regarding the trigger variations.

I understand that many have their own personal opinions based on their own circumstances. But please read through my circumstances, and share with me your opinion based on my circumstances (or at least what you know about my circumstances).

My civilian and novice experience with SA and LEM is this:

My accuracy is extremely better on the SA trigger. It is light and short. Since the travel length is short, I have less trigger error. With the LEM trigger, I have too much trigger error because of the longer trigger pull.

The reason why I liked the LEM is because I don't want a safety. For personal defense, I just want to point and shoot.

The reason why I like the SA is because I'm A LOT more accurate than with the LEM.

Yes, training can reduce my trigger errors on the LEM, but with ammunition at the cost that it is, I don't see myself training as much as I should. Dry firing may help, but I don't know how much or if it would be enough practice to correct my natural inclination during duress. Also, if I was in a threat situation I believe my natural tendencies would prevail.

My inclination is to select a trigger variation that is more natural, and requires less training. The less equipment training required, the more proficient and more accurate. Less bad habits to correct, and less probability of reverting to bad habits during duress.

One attribute that I'm very natural with is not having my finger on the trigger until my sights are on the target. I've also been trained not to pull a pistol unless I plan on pulling the trigger. I treat every gun as if there were no safety and a hair trigger. I have no safety worries about controlling my firearm. My firearm outside the holster is very controlled.

I don't work in law enforcement, nor military, so I have no department concerns for safety. I have no political agendas either. All my firearms are locked up when no on me, and ammunition locked up separately.

Therefore I've been considering a variant 3, chambered, cocked, not locked. Variant 3 should give me the SA without a safety. Seems like a superior choice.

Some people say that carrying variant 3 cocked and not locked is crazy. But I don't quite understand the difference between LEM and and carrying this way. I figure the trigger weight pull isn't a big safety deal between match LEM and SA, and I can't imagine the trigger pull distance amounting to being safer on LEM.

I figure this way of carrying is not much different than the Glock's trigger safety. The Glock's trigger safety would have the same problem as a SA not locked if my finger was on the trigger.

Therefore, with proper trigger control, I don't see much need for manual safeties, nor much safety difference between the SA and LEM. And since I shoot the SA much better than the LEM, I'm considering my choice to be cocked and not locked.

Is this still a seriously crazy idea? Why?

Is there anyone else who agrees with this line of thinking?

Thanks for the opinions,

Jake

[Gerber]

The short answer is practice, training and personal preference. There are options to reduce the LEM trigger to ~4.5-5.5 LBS if you so desire. Good luck and stay safe.

[F22_RaptoR]

IMHO carry cocked and unlocked is a bad idea.

I prefer C&L, or double action. Just too easy a pull in single action to be sure that your going to be able to stop if the threat is stopped before your ready to shoot (aka, shooting at suspect as he's dropping his gun = second degree murder)

I would personally suggest, get a variant 9 (safety only, no decock) and train with the safty, or get a Glock or springfield XD, that are designed to be carried without a safety switch.


Just my $.02

[imp25rs]

Cocked and UNlocked is really not a good idea. You compared the trigger pull of the Match LEM to the SA. You have to keep in mind that the Match LEM was designed for competition, not CCW.

I agree with F22_RaptoR. If you are that set on using the SA mode only then take a look at Glock or the XD. My personal preference is the XD over the Glock. It has a MUCH better feel to the trigger. Plus you have the 1911 style grip safety. I sent my XD back to the Springfield Custom Shop and had their "Carry Package" done which improves the trigger even more. I swear it is smoother than my HK now.

If you want to stay with HK then get a Variant 3 and some snap caps. When you are sitting and watching TV, practice the DA pull. In a few days you will notice a huge difference.

[johnnyjohnny]

Noooo, not this thread again! :)

Check this out.

http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64476&highlight=cocked+unlocked

Johnny

[policemedic]

Learn to use the safety, or carry LEM or traditional double action. Anything else is dangerous.

By the way- planning to shoot when you pull your pistol is bad mojo. You should be prepared and willing to shoot, but frankly, the overwhelming majority of incidents are resolved by simply presenting the weapon. Unholstering should not be automatically associated with firing.

[glockthegg]

I think the best answer for you may be to just carry cocked and locked (Variant 1). People often make a big deal out of using a manual safety.... it's not that tough. The best place for your thumb is riding on top of the safety lever. Train yourself to push down on the safety when your gun is pointed at the target during the presentation. This takes no extra time and it is not difficult to learn. You can do this in the privacy of your own home without ever firing a shot. I have been doing this with 1911's for years and I have never inadvertantly left the safety on when I didn't intend for it to be on.

[SauceNJ]

You want the truth? Chances are, if you're REALLY in a life or death situation where you need to draw your gun, the guy is gonna be within 10 feet of you. If he's any further, you have a better chance of survival by running like a little bitch! And if you can't hit a human being at 10 feet in double action, you shouldn't be carrying a gun anyway. Just my 2 cents. HAMMER DOWN!!! Learn to shoot and you wont have a problem.

This brings me to another point. Now, I know many of you will have a problem with this and I'm gonna get reamed but I've gotta say it... Why do you need to carry a gun cocked at all??? In my opinion, a handgun is an "in case **** happens" weapon. By "in case **** happens" I mean many things - most of which an individual will have time to cock his/her weapon. Unless you're in law enforcement and putting yourself in potentially dangerous situations, why do you need a fully ready weapon on your person. Where do you guys live exactly? Florida, Seattle WA, Philadelphia PA, Canada??? - are you kidding me? These are very safe places my friends. I've been in every state in our great nation and I mean EVERY STATE!!! And I've gotta tell you - the only places I ever felt like there was even a possibility of some bad stuff happening were in cities and states that DID NOT ALLOW CCW. And generally, the biggest *******s I've run into are the guys carrying guns - playing like they're f*cking cowboys. Just my opinion - I know it's always good to be prepared - but not when it risks an accident. In my opinion, If I'm gonna draw on someone with their gun on me, I'm probably dead anyway - give them the money, the car keys, whatever! And if you fear that people are out there gunning for you, then you're either crazy, or you're a criminal yourself and are doing something that puts you at risk. Just my opinion - maybe I'm wrong.

[Geohans]

Buy a P7. D'ooohhh!

[harrydog]

You want the truth? Chances are, if you're REALLY in a life or death situation where you need to draw your gun, the guy is gonna be within 10 feet of you. If he's any further, you have a better chance of survival by running like a little bitch! And if you can't hit a human being at 10 feet in double action, you shouldn't be carrying a gun anyway. Just my 2 cents. HAMMER DOWN!!! Learn to shoot and you wont have a problem.

This brings me to another point. Now, I know many of you will have a problem with this and I'm gonna get reamed but I've gotta say it... Why do you need to carry a gun cocked at all??? In my opinion, a handgun is an "in case **** happens" weapon. By "in case **** happens" I mean many things - most of which an individual will have time to cock his/her weapon. Unless you're in law enforcement and putting yourself in potentially dangerous situations, why do you need a fully ready weapon on your person. Where do you guys live exactly? Florida, Seattle WA, Philadelphia PA, Canada??? - are you kidding me? These are very safe places my friends. I've been in every state in our great nation and I mean EVERY STATE!!! And I've gotta tell you - the only places I ever felt like there was even a possibility of some bad stuff happening were in cities and states that DID NOT ALLOW CCW. And generally, the biggest *******s I've run into are the guys carrying guns - playing like they're f*cking cowboys. Just my opinion - I know it's always good to be prepared - but not when it risks an accident. In my opinion, If I'm gonna draw on someone with their gun on me, I'm probably dead anyway - give them the money, the car keys, whatever! And if you fear that people are out there gunning for you, then you're either crazy, or you're a criminal yourself and are doing something that puts you at risk. Just my opinion - maybe I'm wrong.
I think you're wrong. You're wrong in thinking that you'll have time to cock your weapon. Sure, maybe you will. But in most cases, ****, as you say, happens fast. Really fast. In my opinion, if you make the decision to carry a gun, it should be carried in the ready position. That means cocked and locked if it's SA only.

[Marksman14]

You want the truth? Chances are, if you're REALLY in a life or death situation where you need to draw your gun, the guy is gonna be within 10 feet of you. If he's any further, you have a better chance of survival by running like a little bitch! And if you can't hit a human being at 10 feet in double action, you shouldn't be carrying a gun anyway. Just my 2 cents. HAMMER DOWN!!! Learn to shoot and you wont have a problem.

This brings me to another point. Now, I know many of you will have a problem with this and I'm gonna get reamed but I've gotta say it... Why do you need to carry a gun cocked at all??? In my opinion, a handgun is an "in case **** happens" weapon. By "in case **** happens" I mean many things - most of which an individual will have time to cock his/her weapon. Unless you're in law enforcement and putting yourself in potentially dangerous situations, why do you need a fully ready weapon on your person. Where do you guys live exactly? Florida, Seattle WA, Philadelphia PA, Canada??? - are you kidding me? These are very safe places my friends. I've been in every state in our great nation and I mean EVERY STATE!!! And I've gotta tell you - the only places I ever felt like there was even a possibility of some bad stuff happening were in cities and states that DID NOT ALLOW CCW. And generally, the biggest *******s I've run into are the guys carrying guns - playing like they're f*cking cowboys. Just my opinion - I know it's always good to be prepared - but not when it risks an accident. In my opinion, If I'm gonna draw on someone with their gun on me, I'm probably dead anyway - give them the money, the car keys, whatever! And if you fear that people are out there gunning for you, then you're either crazy, or you're a criminal yourself and are doing something that puts you at risk. Just my opinion - maybe I'm wrong.

I'm sure the 5 women that just got executed in the Lane Bryant store here would love to tell you something about "places that are supposed to be safe".

You carry a weapon to defend yourself. You carry it in the manner that suits you best. You draw it if your life is threatened. If you think you're going to have time to take cover and pull the hammer back, or get a firearm "ready", then have at it. While you're fumbling for your hammer, I will have already drawn, disengaged my safety, obtained a sight picture, pressed the trigger and if all went properly, removed the threat.

How you have your hammer positioned has nothing to do with being a cowboy versus a responsible CCW'er.

If your friends are going around advertising that they carry, they either open carry, or talk too much. Thats their own problem to deal with.

If/when I am CCWing, nobody knows about it, and I carry a firearm in the condition that best suits my skill set. As long as it is safe, there is no reason not to give yourself the tactical advantage.

Its more about mindset than anything else. I put myself in a position that gives me the most confidence, as long as it is safe. Nothing "cowboy" about it.

As far as carrying a weapon cocked with no safety...

Would I do it? No. I prefer to carry a weapon in the manner in which it was intended. Generally speaking, if the hammer is back, a manual safety must be present. If it is a decocker equipt weapon, I use the decocker. If it is a Glock or a DAO, I put a round in the chamber and call it a day.

Do I think there is anything wrong about it? Not sure. I generally like to adhere to the idea that if I wouldn't do it, its wrong or unsafe :)

I do know this though- HK's will not fire unless you pull the trigger. HK's triggers will not get pulled provided you have the proper holster and keep your booger picker out of it. Would I tell someone they are flat out wrong or irresponsible for carrying an HK cocked in a kydex holster? No. Would I do it? No.

YMMV

[H&K 4 LIFE]

Carrying without one in the chamber seems almost as dangerous as carrying a DA/SA gun cocked and no safety engaged...accidents waiting to happen.

Carry DA/SA decocked or cocked and locked, whichever is more comforable for you.

[tastysp]

However you carry, training is the key. Competition shooters are amazingly fast and they deal with safeties on their 1911s all the time. Train for the way you carry whether DA or SA cocked or not and you will be fine.

[Montrala]

I think you're wrong. You're wrong in thinking that you'll have time to cock your weapon. Sure, maybe you will. But in most cases, ****, as you say, happens fast. Really fast. In my opinion, if you make the decision to carry a gun, it should be carried in the ready position. That means cocked and locked if it's SA only.

Knock, knock! Wake up! This is HK forum. Are you aware on any SA only HK (beside competition modifications, like my Expert)? I'm not. With HK you can opt for DA, SA (locked), DAO and LEM (like DAO). But not locked SA is a big no!

[Marksman14]

Knock, knock! Wake up! This is HK forum. Are you aware on any SA only HK (beside competition modifications, like my Expert)? I'm not. With HK you can opt for DA, SA (locked), DAO and LEM (like DAO). But not locked SA is a big no!

I think he was just referring to any gun that you CAN utilized condition one.

Regardless, V9 pretty much SAO.

The trigger still works in DA mode, but unless you're a fan of lowering a hammer on a loaded round, its basically SAO.

Oh well, semantics.

[HKAZ]

Both of my carry HKs are V3s with loaded chamber indicators. USP45c & USP 45 EXPERT. I would never carry it cocked as I might shoot myself and I would never carry it with an empty chamber as I might get shot. If you have a LCI, putting your finger in the ready position will tell you that there is a round in the chamber. If there's one in the chamber and it's a V3 it WILL fire for sure if you pull the trigger. Practice, practice, practice your DA first shot. I think that the DA first shot provides a split second to be sure I want to shoot without the danger of leaving the safety on. After you master the DA first shot, you can practice adding cocking to your presentation. Just a few thoughts. If you are still in doubt, that the P7 suggestion in prior posts.

[spyder1439]

for my 2 cents - Im a law enforcement officer - i carry a gun at work 40 hours a week and sometimes when off duty. we (meaning my department and the rest of NJ, i believe) carry our weapons (sig p226 357sig for my department) with a round in the chamber and the hammer down (decocked). the first trigger pull is long but the rest are short. there is no safety on the weapon and if there was one it would not be on when carrying. no need in wasting anytime if the trigger has to be pulled. when we pull our wepons out on like felony stops or whatever our fingers DO NOT go inside the trigger guard.
think of it like this - if the gun goes off by accident because you decided to carry cocked and locked and you kill someone (who should not have been shot) - YOU'RE A MURDERER!! you will be arrested and go to prison. is it worth it???????

[Mark71]

The poll speaks for itself. Carrying cocked without a safety is an accident waiting to happen.

[Bentonville]

Jake, shoot the HK P2000 or the HK P30 in both DA and SA. Notice how easy it is to fire in the SA mode. Imagine drawing under duress or holstering after a scare...It would be so easy to touch the trigger or to snag the trigger on the top edge of the holster, depending on mode of carry, or just about anything. Then you have a ND and a sharp pain in your upper thigh or somewhere a hole where is shouldn't be. No instructor that I have ever known would even discuss carrying a SA unlocked, ready to fire. I am sure the one person that voted "go ahead and carry cocked and unlocked" was not serious.

[230GrainRemedy]

While my first preference is for traditional double action weapons (like HK, SIG, or S&W) where the first shot is DA and following are fired SA. My second choice is for safe-action triggers like Glock, the LEM from HK, Springfield XD and others. I do own two 1911 style pistols, but they don't see much carry or use outside the range, although I am considering the Kimber PRO Tactical for the carry role. Again, personal preference should near the top of your list, as should SAFETY-SAFETY-SAFETY, I feel an off-safe weapon is one that could pose a hazard to yourself and others; the best place for it should be pointed down range, and IMO not in your holster. As a shooter, we're responsible for every single round fired by our firearm... the analogy there's a lawyer attached to each is not far from the realm of possibilities.

[ZAT]

Pretty much agree that cocked and unlocked is an accident waiting to happen. On my HK45 the SA trigger is very crisp and short. It requires VERY little movement to make it go bang. I would not feel comfortable carrying that way without a safety. I am not so much worried about the pull weight as I am about the amount of trigger movement required to discharge the gun. Whne youre crapping in your pants scared its really easy to reflexively move that finger the .100" needed to MAE the gun go bang. In all honesty you could have a 10# trigger and still make it go bang if the break was so short.

I would suggest that instead of trying to solve a human error with mechanics you simply practice and practice and practice and practice. If your issue truly is trigger control them dry fire along with fimger strangth and isolation exercises will solve it. If you have other issues then range time and education will be needed.

[SauceNJ]

Keep your hammer down and your lawyer on speed dial (as well as your mother/girlfriend/wife/friend to bail you out of prison. As for me, I'd rather get robbed than "rectally relieved" in prison. Come to think of it... I'd rather get shot than rectally relieved in prison - at least there's a chance I might get over getting shot some day. A thief may steal your money, but a prison cell ass-pirate will rob you of your dignity. That should be a bumper sticker. lol

[69hdfl]

Keep your hammer down and your lawyer on speed dial. A thief may steal your money, but a prison cell ass-pirate will rob you of your dignity.
hahahahaha, that is priceless LMAO
That should be a bumper sticker.
or a T-shirt LMAO

[MJCOL21]

I would not feel safe carrying a gun cocked and unlocked. If its cocked then it has to be locked. If it is unlocked then it should not be cocked. I feel the best way to carry is uncocked with the safety off because if you have to pull your weapon out you just shoot there is no safety to take off. I suggest that you go to the range and practice that first pull.

[Huey]

You want the truth? Chances are, if you're REALLY in a life or death situation where you need to draw your gun, the guy is gonna be within 10 feet of you. If he's any further, you have a better chance of survival by running like a little bitch! And if you can't hit a human being at 10 feet in double action, you shouldn't be carrying a gun anyway. Just my 2 cents. HAMMER DOWN!!! Learn to shoot and you wont have a problem.

This brings me to another point. Now, I know many of you will have a problem with this and I'm gonna get reamed but I've gotta say it... Why do you need to carry a gun cocked at all??? In my opinion, a handgun is an "in case **** happens" weapon. By "in case **** happens" I mean many things - most of which an individual will have time to cock his/her weapon. Unless you're in law enforcement and putting yourself in potentially dangerous situations, why do you need a fully ready weapon on your person. Where do you guys live exactly? Florida, Seattle WA, Philadelphia PA, Canada??? - are you kidding me? These are very safe places my friends. I've been in every state in our great nation and I mean EVERY STATE!!! And I've gotta tell you - the only places I ever felt like there was even a possibility of some bad stuff happening were in cities and states that DID NOT ALLOW CCW. And generally, the biggest *******s I've run into are the guys carrying guns - playing like they're f*cking cowboys. Just my opinion - I know it's always good to be prepared - but not when it risks an accident. In my opinion, If I'm gonna draw on someone with their gun on me, I'm probably dead anyway - give them the money, the car keys, whatever! And if you fear that people are out there gunning for you, then you're either crazy, or you're a criminal yourself and are doing something that puts you at risk. Just my opinion - maybe I'm wrong.

Good grief.

I'm not an LEO, but I've had to draw for self defense. I carried a 1911-A1 when working as a bouncer. I encountered a pissed-off ex-patron one night, one whom I had to physically remove from the premises. He had a crowbar. I was smart enough to put distance between me and the darkened areas of the alley I had to travel to get to my car.

The distance between us was about 20 feet when I realized the danger. I am not a fast runner. I did backpedal before dropping to one knee and bringing my weapon to a COM aimpoint. My finger was beginning to pull. (Had I had my trigger work done before this incident, my life would be very different.) He dropped the crowbar and ran.

There was nothing macho about it, nor is there anything macho about carrying a weapon. It is a tool that I have used in self defense and hope to never employ in that regard. You will never convince me that carrying is a poor decision. It's already saved my life once.

(I carry the 1911-A1 cocked and locked, although I had carried in a half-cocked state for some time. I read about that from a safety standpoint, in addition to the time needed to cock it, and decided it wasn't as good a move as I thought. The HK45C will be carried decocked.)

[SauceNJ]

Good grief.

I'm not an LEO, but I've had to draw for self defense. I carried a 1911-A1 when working as a bouncer. I encountered a pissed-off ex-patron one night, one whom I had to physically remove from the premises. He had a crowbar. I was smart enough to put distance between me and the darkened areas of the alley I had to travel to get to my car.

The distance between us was about 20 feet when I realized the danger. I am not a fast runner. I did backpedal before dropping to one knee and bringing my weapon to a COM aimpoint. My finger was beginning to pull. (Had I had my trigger work done before this incident, my life would be very different.) He dropped the crowbar and ran.

There was nothing macho about it, nor is there anything macho about carrying a weapon. It is a tool that I have used in self defense and hope to never employ in that regard. You will never convince me that carrying is a poor decision. It's already saved my life once.


I'm glad to hear you avoided an ass whooping. However, had he taken another step and had you shot him, you would be in prison for manslaughter right now - if not second degree murder. An assailant with a crowbar is not the same as one with a gun. According to law, you're allowed to use "equal force" to defend yourself. Had you shot him, chances are right now you'd be broke, probably in a lot of debt, and in prison. Not to mention the fact that as a bouncer, you probably should have been able to defend yourself enough to avoid serious injury. And by the way... I don't remember it being legal in ANY state to carry a gun in a bar - let alone if you are working at one. Bottom line, you got lucky - next time carry a stun gun with you like every other bouncer I know. As far as I'm concerned, you've proved my point.

[johnnyjohnny]

I'm glad to hear you avoided an ass whooping. However, had he taken another step and had you shot him, you would be in prison for manslaughter right now - if not second degree murder. An assailant with a crowbar is not the same as one with a gun. According to law, you're allowed to use "equal force" to defend yourself. Had you shot him, chances are right now you'd be broke, probably in a lot of debt, and in prison. Not to mention the fact that as a bouncer, you probably should have been able to defend yourself enough to avoid serious injury. And by the way... I don't remember it being legal in ANY state to carry a gun in a bar - let alone if you are working at one. Bottom line, you got lucky - next time carry a stun gun with you like every other bouncer I know. As far as I'm concerned, you've proved my point.

What you've written has some valid points but it not altogether or universally true. Laws vary widely from state to state and contain an innumerable amount of variables. I live in Utah, and being 130 pounds, if some 300 pound beast were to run at me with a crowbar, I would be justified in "stopping" him with a firearm. In some states it is perfectly legal to carry in a drinking establishment, Utah included. "There is nothing in state statute that prohibits permit holders from being in a bar with a concealed firearm. However, it is illegal to be intoxicated and in possession of a firearm. The level of intoxication that is considered illegal is the same standard as when driving a car (.08 B,A,C.)."(bci.utah.gov) And as far as carrying in your workplace, it is completely ok and legal unless otherwise specified by your employer's policies. F.Y.I. "The Utah Supreme Court held that employees who are fired for violating their employer's "No Weapons Policies" cannot sue for wrongful termination."(Utah Gun Law, Attorney Mitch Vilos)

Johnny

[faris13]

What you've written has some valid points but it not altogether or universally true. Laws vary widely from state to state and contain an innumerable amount of variables. I live in Utah, and being 130 pounds, if some 300 pound beast were to run at me with a crowbar, I would be justified in "stopping" him with a firearm. In some states it is perfectly legal to carry in a drinking establishment, Utah included. "There is nothing in state statute that prohibits permit holders from being in a bar with a concealed firearm. However, it is illegal to be intoxicated and in possession of a firearm. The level of intoxication that is considered illegal is the same standard as when driving a car (.08 B,A,C.)."(bci.utah.gov) And as far as carrying in your workplace, it is completely ok and legal unless otherwise specified by your employer's policies. F.Y.I. "The Utah Supreme Court held that employees who are fired for violating their employer's "No Weapons Policies" cannot sue for wrongful termination."(Utah Gun Law, Attorney Mitch Vilos)

Johnny


In KY I'm pretty positive the shooting would be justified, the person coming at you with the crobar is intending to physically harm you and a crobar can obviously be a lethal weapon.

You have to remember that if you live in NJ than your laws will differ quite a bit from some other states. Especially in terms of firearms and self defense.

[harrydog]

In KY I'm pretty positive the shooting would be justified, the person coming at you with the crobar is intending to physically harm you and a crobar can obviously be a lethal weapon.

You have to remember that if you live in NJ than your laws will differ quite a bit from some other states. Especially in terms of firearms and self defense.

I think it would be considered justified in most states. NJ may be one of those states that is generally anti-gun and has very stupid gun laws. I would move if I lived there.
Regardless of where you live though, shooting someone in self defense would still most likely be a huge hassle for you. It's not something you want to take lightly. You should know your state and local laws ahead of time.

[jovasi]

Taken straight from the Ohio Concealed Carry Law; "Deadly force can be used only to prevent serious bodily harm or death". I would say someone coming after you with a crow bar would cause serious bodily harm.

[spyder1439]

being an leo in nj - if you were trapped in a dead end alley - wtih no means of escape - and you verbally yelled at the guy to stop and he still came at you with the crow bar and you shot him point blank you would be covered as long as you had a concealed carry permit and the gun was registered. you may not go to jail but you definately will be sued and probably have to pay the guys family for the rest of your life. oh yeah and the gun will be taken as evidence for about 5-8 years.

there is no law against bringing a gun into a bar unless the owner prohibits it (private property) - nj doesnt even have a law about being drunk and carrying - however if you shoot someone while drunk - you gonna have a BIG problem. the moral of the story - shooting should be used as a last resort.

[harrydog]

being an leo in nj - if you were trapped in a dead end alley - wtih no means of escape - and you verbally yelled at the guy to stop and he still came at you with the crow bar and you shot him point blank you would be covered as long as you had a concealed carry permit and the gun was registered. you may not go to jail but you definately will be sued and probably have to pay the guys family for the rest of your life.
That's sad....

[spyder1439]

yeah tell me about it. its all the tree huggin, sue happy liberals in nj that ruin it for the rest of the state and the courts that grant people money for ridiculous law suits and then set precedents so others follow.

as for the no laws about being drunk and carrying and in bars etc. if you carry while drinking thats just poor judgement, no, you're an idiot, and if you do something stupid then you deserve the nonsense of the state.

[SauceNJ]

being an leo in nj - if you were trapped in a dead end alley - wtih no means of escape - and you verbally yelled at the guy to stop and he still came at you with the crow bar and you shot him point blank you would be covered as long as you had a concealed carry permit and the gun was registered. you may not go to jail but you definately will be sued and probably have to pay the guys family for the rest of your life. oh yeah and the gun will be taken as evidence for about 5-8 years.

there is no law against bringing a gun into a bar unless the owner prohibits it (private property) - nj doesnt even have a law about being drunk and carrying - however if you shoot someone while drunk - you gonna have a BIG problem. the moral of the story - shooting should be used as a last resort.

Spyder - as a LEO in NJ, you should know better - first of all, you cant have a NJ carry permit UNLESS you're in law enforcement in the state so I don't know where you got that little jewel. Secondly, as a bar owner I can tell you that in NJ, you cant have a gun in a bar. Thirdly, these 2 facts themselves make it very illegal to shoot someone in an alley for ANY reason whatsoever. In fact, in the state of NJ, the only place you can shoot someone and maybe get away with it is in your own house - and he better have a gun - otherwise you're in really deep sh*t.

Now, since this story doesn't take place in NJ, it's completely irrelevant.

[SauceNJ]

To be honest, I'm very conflicted about carrying weapons. I believe we should have the right to do so - however, in my experience, 9 out of 10 people in this country are f*cking idiots. Do you know how many stupid people I run into on a daily basis? I'm not sure I want everyone carrying a gun. We had this discussion at the range last night - got pretty heated. In fact, I thought I was gonna get shot at one point. Some turd started yelling at me that he has the right to defend himself and should have the right to concealed carry. I told him that I'd agree with him if he could actually spell the word "concealed." Dude was pissed.

[Huey]

I'm glad to hear you avoided an ass whooping. However, had he taken another step and had you shot him, you would be in prison for manslaughter right now - if not second degree murder. An assailant with a crowbar is not the same as one with a gun. According to law, you're allowed to use "equal force" to defend yourself. Had you shot him, chances are right now you'd be broke, probably in a lot of debt, and in prison. Not to mention the fact that as a bouncer, you probably should have been able to defend yourself enough to avoid serious injury. And by the way... I don't remember it being legal in ANY state to carry a gun in a bar - let alone if you are working at one. Bottom line, you got lucky - next time carry a stun gun with you like every other bouncer I know. As far as I'm concerned, you've proved my point.

No, not an "ass whooping". If it was a matter of simple assault, well, I am 6'5" and was, at the time, a solid 290 (yes, solid, good enough to pass weight standards in Embry-Riddle's AFROTC program--we can dispel the dip**** bouncer question here and now. I have degrees (BS and MAS) in engineering and aerospace, in part financed by this work in my undergraduate years). A crowbar is absolutely a lethal weapon and only a fool would engage one in unarmed combat if one had a choice. Weapon parity is a bull**** line of thought or argument. Lethality is the issue. At the time, Prescott, AZ, PD indicated to the guys who worked at our bar that multiple unarmed attackers constituted lethal force. Makes sense, too.

As far as carrying in a bar: The employees of a private establishment may authorize its employees to be armed on the premises or during the performance of their duties. All of the bouncers carried to and from work. NONE of us carried on the job, though.

So, we can throw out about 4 misconceptions you have. Back to the main point: Having a weapon for self defense isn't a case of macho bull**** or wanting to be superior. If anything, most people I know who carry concealed are less prone to escalation of a situation, not more so.

[SO758]

I have to carry my USP .45 decocked in my duty holster. I still have it locked tho. I draw and unlock just like I would do with my 1911's.

[Huey]

being an leo in nj - if you were trapped in a dead end alley - wtih no means of escape - and you verbally yelled at the guy to stop and he still came at you with the crow bar and you shot him point blank you would be covered as long as you had a concealed carry permit and the gun was registered. you may not go to jail but you definately will be sued and probably have to pay the guys family for the rest of your life. oh yeah and the gun will be taken as evidence for about 5-8 years.

there is no law against bringing a gun into a bar unless the owner prohibits it (private property) - nj doesnt even have a law about being drunk and carrying - however if you shoot someone while drunk - you gonna have a BIG problem. the moral of the story - shooting should be used as a last resort.

Arizona is (or was, I left about 11 years ago) an open carry state and I had the weapon visible in a nylon holster tucked into the back of my pants. There was no yelling. Hell, I didn't even think about yelling. Someone who waits an hour in the dark with a weapon to attack someone doing his damn job isn't going to be scared off by yelling anyway.