HK45 Hitting to the Left 4"

[cbrenn71]

Went to the range today, and spent about 100 rounds. After shooting, and comparing targets, one thing is clear. I'm consistently shooting to the left 2-4''. I know this is my first handgun, and i know my grip isn't probably the best out there, but then i have my father shoot it, again, grouping 2-4'' to the left. Even had my girlfriend shoot it, 4'' to the left?

I think i need to replace the backstrap on it to the smaller size, just because i prefer a slimmer grip, but could that be the reason? I've been taking a step back and looking at my grip now and again while shooting, and everything appears to be in place, using the thumbs forward/tactical grip.

Any help? Any one elses doing this? Just confusing to me.

I'm huge in archery, and i'm having trouble getting used to shooting with huge sights (i'm used to a .019 fiber optic pin), so that may be it, but i've shot other handguns before, and never had this issue.

Any help would be appriciated.

[BytorJr]

If everybody is shooting 4" off to the left, I'm under the impression your rear sight has been knocked out somehow.

That said, how are you pulling the trigger, that could have some bearing as well.

Obviously, a Ransom Rest would take the human element out more, but I'm willing to bet the sight is out of spec.

[P7M8]

Aim 4" to the right of your desired impact.








Sorry, couldn't help it. You may need to drift your sights. Do they look off? Your front sight may be off to the right or your rear sight to the left.

[cbrenn71]

Here is a picture of the last 2 rounds of 10 i shot today. These were from around 17 yards:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/cbrenn71/grouping001.jpg

[cbrenn71]

Aim 4" to the right of your desired impact.








Sorry, couldn't help it. You may need to drift your sights. Do they look off? Your front sight may be off to the right or your rear sight to the left.

Sights look perfect from the factory, doesn't appeared to be bumped.

[Viktor]

Hey cbrenn,

You may be doing something that is called "slapping the trigger" this will push your shots in the direction yours seem to be going. Im no firearms instructor...but I took some lessons from a mighty good one at RangeMaster in Memphis Tn. If you look online there is a chart that shows a target and shows what you are doing based on where the point of impact is. Ex. "Slapping" pulls shots to the left ...."thumbing" to the right... "flinching" or anticipating the shot does this etc etc. Someone here please correct me if Iam getting my terms confused. Anyway I will look for the chart and post it if I can find it. Until then I would recommend spending a few bucks on some snap caps and practicing "dry firing" (make you follow all the safety rules) and maybe take a class down the road if you havent already. Not to be rude...but I have found most of the time its not the guns fault.

Viktor

[cbrenn71]

I practice almost daily with my snap caps.


I dont notice slapping with the trigger finger, or any noticeable flinching. the only thing i can think of is that i feel i should change the backstrap out because i just can't seem to get the grip i'd like.

[ispeed]

I have noticed that the a backstrap change can have an affect on your POI, but I would also agree that it could just be the shooter (both were the case with me and a different gun model). I see you do have snap caps and do practice.

Next time out, have someone load the mags for you but place a snap cap in the mag somewhere along the line with the live rounds. It could be a flinch issue and this is one the best ways to really see if it a reflex issue or not. If the shots are better when doing this drill, you will have most likely diagnosed the problem since knowing some snap caps are in the mag and you are concentrating more on trigger control.

[diesel1959]

Sights look perfect from the factory, doesn't appeared to be bumped.

By all means, change the backstrap if you seek a better fit on the weapon; however, don't assume that because your sights are "centered" on the slide that that means the point of impact will be correct. The reason they are in the dovetail is so that they can be drifted as needed to one side or the other to affect the rounds' point of impact to exactly coincide with your point of aim.

Good luck!

[hkuspc9]

If you look online there is a chart that shows a target and shows what you are doing based on where the point of impact is. Ex. "Slapping" pulls shots to the left ...."thumbing" to the right... "flinching" or anticipating the shot does this etc etc. Someone here please correct me if Iam getting my terms confused. Anyway I will look for the chart and post it if I can find it.

Here you go: http://www.centerfiretraining.com/id15.html

[diesel1959]

If three folks out of three are shooting the weapon consistently to the left by the same amount, chances are very good that slapping/jerking/pulling/overinsertion/underinsertion/flinching/etc. are not the problem. More likely that the weapon's point of aim does not equal the point of impact. I'm just sayin' . . .

[ispeed]

And with that same logic, the backstrap issue would not hold much water either. All three sets of hands are different and wouldn't need the same backstrap for optimal performance. I am not an expert, but I had a different gun and my targets looked just like the OP's. My issues were a backstrap change (main effect here was a faster follow up shot) and trigger control. I kept saying it the was the gun to anyone who would listen. After much practice I realized it was me. I did the same and let others try the gun. Some were worse some were better, but most people didn't do well with my gun. I realized it was the trigger and my own control over it.

I hope it is a simple sight adjustment for the OP. I am just relaying my own experience. Good luck either way.

[Scooter]

At 17 yards with a group like that, it's operator error. At 17 yards, the gun is capable of 3" groups or less. If you had a really tight group, I would say the sights are off. But since all the shots are low and left, that is the results of slapping the trigger.

I will bet you that if you shoot the gun off a rest, either sandbags or even laying your arms and hands on the bench, the gun will magically shoot dead on.

Another drill to try is do the bump drill. Go here http://www.downrange.tv/player.htm and scroll down through the videos until you find the Bump Drill. This will show that it's YOU that causing the gun to shoot left.

[reznunt]

Here you go: http://www.centerfiretraining.com/id15.html

that explains it.

[Bighunt1975]

How are you gripping the gun? I have noticed alot of first time pistol shooters find it difficult to find proper hand placement on the grip, which can cause poor trigger finger placement and less controll of the recoil. Look up information on the weaver stance and proper grip placement. Sometimes just gripping the gun differently can make a big difference.

[GARY1911A1]

At 17 yards with a group like that, it's operator error. At 17 yards, the gun is capable of 3" groups or less. If you had a really tight group, I would say the sights are off. But since all the shots are low and left, that is the results of slapping the trigger.

I will bet you that if you shoot the gun off a rest, either sandbags or even laying your arms and hands on the bench, the gun will magically shoot dead on.

Another drill to try is do the bump drill. Go here http://www.downrange.tv/player.htm and scroll down through the videos until you find the Bump Drill. This will show that it's YOU that causing the gun to shoot left.

I agree. If your groups were smaller it could and likely would be the sights. Take a class with Bruce Gray if you can. Well worth the money.

[Titan1]

Next time you head to the range, it may be useful to have someone load your magazine and mix a snap cap or two in with live ammo.

It is easy to dry fire when you know there's no bang.

[reaper8154]

Not enough finger on the trigger.

[cbrenn71]

I'll try and get a picture of my hand grip today, see if you guys can put any input on it. Thanks for the bump drill. I will try that next time out.

[cbrenn71]

Hey guys, here are some pictures from a few different angles of my grip. Notice anything off hand that seems wrong? I noticed after uploading these pics that my grip hand my be a little bent at the wrist?

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/cbrenn71/grip001.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/cbrenn71/grip002.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/cbrenn71/grip003.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/cbrenn71/grip004.jpg

[Bighunt1975]

Your wrist being bent may be the problem, you have to think of the pistol being an extension of you arm. Try to make it so the barrel is in straight line with your forearm. If your wrist is bent it can cause movement during fire. Are you planning on carrying the HK45 or just using it for target practice?

[cbrenn71]

it's just a toy.

i just plan to keep it around the house and to plink with.

[Bighunt1975]

Hey C, check out this sight it has alot of techinque vidoes on it.
http://www.expertvillage.com/video-series/1856_guns-stance.htm

[Scooter]

Oh no, more expert village.

The main problem isn't with grip. It's sloppy trigger control. He's hitting the trigger way too hard which is why all the shots are low left. If you apply more than necessary force, the gun will dip low left. Try it when you are dry firing. You don't want your finger to be an on and off switch. Your trigger finger needs to move in a smooth continuous motion.

[littlebuf]

well judging by the pic of your target you should probably practice more before you go messin with the gun,if it was a 1inch group 4 inches to the left id say the gun but thats like a 12 inch group, and in my opinion hk triggers suck and take forever to get used to especially if its your first gun(now everybody can chime in on how wrong i am for criticizing hk)

[SauceNJ]

PUT THE GUN ON A REST AND SHOOT IT!!! Or better yet, have an experienced shooter rest, and shoot your gun for you. It's not the sights - it's you. I always find it funny when people blame the sights for shooting left. All my guns shoot half an inch left - I know it's not the guns, it's me. REST THE GUN AND SHOOT IT - you'll see.

[cbrenn71]

PUT THE GUN ON A REST AND SHOOT IT!!! Or better yet, have an experienced shooter rest, and shoot your gun for you. It's not the sights - it's you. I always find it funny when people blame the sights for shooting left. All my guns shoot half an inch left - I know it's not the guns, it's me. REST THE GUN AND SHOOT IT - you'll see.

If you would read my original post, i don't blame the sights. I'm looking for tips on how to improve my grip, or what hitting to the left would mean. Thanks for your wealth of knowledge you contributed to helping me.

[BytorJr]

Since everybody that has shot it shoots left, I'm still thinking there MAY be something more than just bad technique or inexperience. I agree (I may have mentioned it) to put the gun on a rest and shoot and see then if it's off. Or have somebody at the range shoot it, maybe a few people.

Good luck and have fun.

[diesel1959]

I respect a lot of what has been said in this thread and those from whom it came; however, groups at 17 yards by folks who don't shoot much are NOT going to be 3". I'd be shooting that weapon at seven yards and trying from a rest as has been advised. I'm certain there is a problem with trigger control, as many have mentioned, and that leads to larger groups; however, I'm still guessing that with three different shooters shooting left, there is more to it than that. I don't believe the original poster stated that all three of the shooters are left-handed or right-handed or what. We now have pics of HIS grip but everyone is making assumptions about the other two folks.

1. Have an experienced shooter try out your weapon and get it to group.
2. Shoot it from a rest and get your weapon to group.
3. Examine and determine where to go from there.

I'm betting there is some operator error present; however, I was partially reacting to the earlier comment (post #5) that the "sights look perfect from the factory, doesn't appear to be bumped" . . . such is a false assumption.

[BytorJr]

I think when I first posted at 12:30 last night I missed something. These were at 17 yards? Hmmm, now I'm thinking nothing is wrong and it is shooter related. Try 10 yards or even better 5 or 7. Then I'd be more convinced something is wrong with the sights. Sorry for my confusion. I'd think it rare, but possible, for the factory to have misaligned sights.

Also, good point about left/right hand shooters.

[reaper8154]

well judging by the pic of your target you should probably practice more before you go messin with the gun,if it was a 1inch group 4 inches to the left id say the gun but thats like a 12 inch group, and in my opinion hk triggers suck and take forever to get used to especially if its your first gun(now everybody can chime in on how wrong i am for criticizing hk)

How dare you!:eek:

[orfeo]

This is NOT unusual. If you look, you will see 1,000s of posts about HKs shooting "left" or "low-left". HK triggers are VERY difficult to manipulate effectively. . . they are long, creepy, heavy, and gritty. With a trigger like that, you will just naturally shoot low-left if you are a righty due to pushin' on that heavy trigger. Lefties just naturally shoot HKs low-right. It takes a conscious effort and some time to get that trigger-finger tuned up and dialed in.

Just listen to everything that Scooter says about it. . . look up his past posts on this topic. He is VERY knowledgeable about this. He knows, and even used to shoot with Bruce Gray. . .

TRUST SCOOTER

[Bubbaman]

Amazing..... this is my first post here, and I find something that really applies to me. I am an FFL dealer and have had the opportunity to shoot just about everything out there. The HK triggers aren't the best, but they aren't bad enough to cause you to shoot consistently left if you are right handed. I never cared much for the blocky USP, so when the HK45 came along I decided to get one for me. I fired over 100 rounds through the gun, including WWB, SXT, Gold Dots, etc. The gun absolutely ate everything. It also had very low felt recoil. But....... back to the thread subject. My gun shot 4" left at 20 yards! Folks, I promise, this was a gun issue. We had another pistol with us the day I shot the HK45, and I had no problem at all with it. I talked to the folks at HK and got a pretty arrogant response. So, I just sent it back to the distributor to handle. HK is a fine product, but when we fail to realize that defects are actually possible, we are in trouble.

[Bubbaman]

If three folks out of three are shooting the weapon consistently to the left by the same amount, chances are very good that slapping/jerking/pulling/overinsertion/underinsertion/flinching/etc. are not the problem. More likely that the weapon's point of aim does not equal the point of impact. I'm just sayin' . . .


+1 here

[ashen]

+1 on using a benchrest. Everything else is relative.

Even if you get ten people to shoot it and they all shoot low left. Unless those ten people are champion pistol shooters and HK engineers, it means nothing.

[Bubbaman]

Well, I have another one coming so I'll let you know how it turns out. I have bags, so I'll shoot it that way too.

[Scooter]

+1 on using a benchrest. Everything else is relative.

Even if you get ten people to shoot it and they all shoot low left. Unless those ten people are champion pistol shooters and HK engineers, it means nothing.

If you use HK engineers, you might not even hit the target since most HK engineers don't shoot guns.

I don't get why people have this adversion to shooting a pistol off a rest. I do it with every pistol I buy. First shots are always fired off a rest to verify zero. You don't see rifle shooters zero their rifles offhand do you?

[cmdrdredd]

If you use HK engineers, you might not even hit the target since most HK engineers don't shoot guns.

I don't get why people have this adversion to shooting a pistol off a rest. I do it with every pistol I buy. First shots are always fired off a rest to verify zero. You don't see rifle shooters zero their rifles offhand do you?

Yes, and the more trigger time someone puts in the better they will get. Saying "it shoots left" before you have fired 1000+ rounds through it doesn't make me thing the gun is defective.

[kbrhk]

maybe your gun was made crooked. like magnumzero's finish was put on in an "easy bake oven" owned by my little sister.

[HKAZ]

+1 Scooter. Step one is to take as many variables out of the equation as possible. They make those bench rest vises with remote actuated triggers for a reason. The first question to be answered is "What is the relation of the Point of Impact to the Point of Aim?" Use a bore sight and or a bench rest and get the POI and the POA the same at your chosen distance. Once you know for sure that the gun will do it, then you can work on what you need to do to replicate that result on a consistant basis.


I'll bet I shot $10,000.00 worth of ammo before I accepted this concept.

Once I knew that the gun shot where it was aimed at the moment the trigger broke, all it took was a stack of Shoot N See targets too get very good very fast. Those targets improved my hand gun shooting alot. You know instantly where the shot went with out taking your eyes off the front sight or the target.

With my 9mm ELITE I can put all 18 rounds under a quarter at 15 yards off hand.

Now I bought a pistol vise for $50.00 and I am in the process of checking all of my hand guns.

[Bubbaman]

Somebody said a while back, that it is all relative. That's kinda true.... relative to crisp trigger, relative to trigger control, relative to learning an HK trigger, etc. It's not out of the realm of possibility that the gun can have an accuracy problem. That's no slam against HK. So it's relative to there being no accuracy problems also. I sent the first HK45 I received back and received a new one. The new one is one serial number digit off the first one I received. My concentration this time was no more - no less than with the first pistol. This one shoots dead on. The problem in my situation was so clear that I didn't need a bench rest. I have a new favorite pistol now...

[useful_idiot]

+1 Scooter. It took me over 1000 rounds to master...strike that...adapt to the USP trigger pull.

Also, take some 400 or 600 sand paper and remove any rough edges on the inside of the trigger guard.

[Va_Dinger]

Here is a picture of the last 2 rounds of 10 i shot today. These were from around 17 yards:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/cbrenn71/grouping001.jpg

Classic "Trigger Snatch".

IMO: It's not the gun and it's not your sights. Take a handgun class from a reputable instructor and dry fire when ever you can. It's the only way to get rid of it.

[HKnc1]

^ is correct. Practice, practice, practice!

[smschulz]

Not enough finger on the trigger.

Agreed. The err is common and only get fixed by more practice. Been there. Done That.

[benderx4]

Check out this link - it may help with your shooting.

http://www.is-lan.com/challenge/images/Pistol-Correction.pdf

[flintsghost]

If everyone is shooting 4" left then I would at first suspect the sights and even as zeroed from the factory, they may need to be moved.

However, I would change ammunition first. I have found that certain sizes and types of ammo will cause a POI change as you are showing, though usually not that much. If I'm zeroed with the Speer Gold dot 200 +P 45acp and then change to 230 hydrashok this will happen to me immediately. The POI will go about 3" left and slightly up. I'll notice it as close as 10 yards and it is more dramatic at 25 yards. Yesterday I was testing a pistol to see the groups and accuracy potential on the pistol. I shot 185 golden Sabre bonded, 185 Federal HST +P, 200 Speer GD +P, 230 Federal HS, and 230 grain GI Match hardball. Only the 200 Speer GD +P and GI match hardball shot to the same POI. The Remington shot right and the Federal to the left. It does happen. Try different ammo to see the effect on POI.

[gregmli]

Another drill to try is do the bump drill. Go here http://www.downrange.tv/player.htm and scroll down through the videos until you find the Bump Drill. This will show that it's YOU that causing the gun to shoot left.

Anyone else find this? I'm not seeing it on their site

Or maybe someone could just describe what the bump drill is..

thanks

[jsdkms]

I agree on the ammo difference but to be honest, I have 12 HK'S and my new 45 shoots 2" to the left all the time with tight groups - I anm going to drift my rear sight to the right and see if that corrects the problem.

[PattayaPistol]

Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
Another drill to try is do the bump drill. Go here http://www.downrange.tv/player.htm and scroll down through the videos until you find the Bump Drill. This will show that it's YOU that causing the gun to shoot left.

I'm in the same boat as gregmli above. I can't find the video. Is there another link to this. Thanks. PP

[smschulz]

I agree on the ammo difference but to be honest, I have 12 HK'S and my new 45 shoots 2" to the left all the time with tight groups - I am going to drift my rear sight to the right and see if that corrects the problem.
Sight movement will help. Another thing I found that not using the end/tip of the finger so much brings it back to the right a little. You will eventually find the right technique with experience. Tight groups are good but that can also mean a grooved (albeit incorrect) technique ~ at least that was the case for me. .02

[Jezsuiz]

You should try to upload a picture of your grip with just your strong hand. Its hard to tell exactly but i think you neeed to rotate the gun a bit. If you have it in your normal grip and point the gun at the floor do the sights rest in a straight line with your arm? Or do they point to the right a bit? It is a very common problem an instructor once told me about 95% of people do it. Also I think you may be slapping the trigger. Try next time to pull it S-L-O-W-L-Y and see if it still shoots left. It is also very common to pull the trigger "to fast" and have the issue of left of aim impact. I could be very possible the sights are off but make sure you eliminate any other problems first.