P30 O Ring Question

[NiceHK]

Anyone know why the p30 was not designed with an O ring? Wouldn't it have helped make the gun a little more accurate than it already is? Perhaps it is less helpful on barrel lengths under 4". If this is the case what about the p30L. I just figure that if HK observed that the O ring helps in accuracy during the development of the mark 23 they would have implemented it into all of their future designs just as they did with the HK45. So I wonder why they left it out of the p30 and p30L design?

[harrydog]

Good question, but I doubt anyone here has the answer.

[Rican Havoc]

There's been a good number of guns released by HK since the MK23. I'd guess that one reason for NOT going with an O ring setup is the extra machining steps required, which increase the price point. HKs are expensive across the board, and the more expensive the model, the fewer the buyers. At least that's what I've found. From the sales vs. engineering standpoint, if the O ring only offers marginal improvements in accuracy, it might be wise to go without it and offer a more affordable model that would have more sales potential.

[Scooter]

Because the o-ring doesn't do anything.

[harrydog]

Because the o-ring doesn't do anything.
If that's the case, why does H&K use it at all?
I personally don't think it does much, but it must make *some* measureable difference. Are you saying it's a complete scam by H&K? Seems like a rather expensive scam that really gains them nothing in terms of added sales.

[NiceHK]

There's been a good number of guns released by HK since the MK23. I'd guess that one reason for NOT going with an O ring setup is the extra machining steps required, which increase the price point. HKs are expensive across the board, and the more expensive the model, the fewer the buyers. At least that's what I've found. From the sales vs. engineering standpoint, if the O ring only offers marginal improvements in accuracy, it might be wise to go without it and offer a more affordable model that would have more sales potential.

Good logic but based on the price point of the HK45 I don't buy it. With the O ring or without it, I believe that the HK45 would be priced the same. A reason must exist why the feature exists on the HK45 and not on the p30. Through the process of comparing and contrasting the weapons that HK has manufactured I reason that it comes down to barrel length and cartridge. If I am correct the O ring to this point is featured only on pistols that fire a 45acp cartridge and have a barrel length > than 4". Which leads me to my next question, should the p30L have one since it's barrel length is > than 4" or no b/c it does not fire a 45acp cartridge? Perhaps not enough examples exist to make a good hypothesis.

[Oakley Davies]

CCF no longer has a web sight or sells O-ring barrels. However they used to have a couple of paragraphs about the O-ring barrel system. If I remember correctly it tightened the lockup without being susceptable to debris giving you match grade accuracy in a combat weapon. It also mentioned that the polymer O-ring absorbed shock. Again this is just from memory.
Also H&K does not use the O-ring on the 9mm USP Tactical so I think its not needed in the 9mm. Not enough shock involved.
Hopefully someone with more info will be along soon.

[Rican Havoc]

Good logic but based on the price point of the HK45 I don't buy it. With the O ring or without it, I believe that the HK45 would be priced the same. A reason must exist why the feature exists on the HK45 and not on the p30. Through the process of comparing and contrasting the weapons that HK has manufactured I reason that it comes down to barrel length and cartridge. If I am correct the O ring to this point is featured only on pistols that fire a 45acp cartridge and have a barrel length > than 4". Which leads me to my next question, should the p30L have one since it's barrel length is > than 4" or no b/c it does not fire a 45acp cartridge? Perhaps not enough examples exist to make a good hypothesis.

The HK45 is "special" because we made it so, and before anyone goes pyrotechnic on me, this is coming from the guy who did the marketing vid for HK-USA on this model. People are obviously willing to pay the price for the HK45, even though a lot of us feel the good old USP45 does the same job for far less cash. When you compare the cost of the HK45 to that of the P30, there is a difference. The P30 is cheaper to buy, and I'd say it is cheaper to produce in the long run. One might argue that in the case of the P30, the buyer is paying for R&D recoup costs on plastics moulding (frame differences to accommodate grip panels, and the panels themselves). I'd retort that machining the O ring grooves implies the costs of replacement bits and saws. Both the barrel and the slide are cut to accommodate the O ring, and we know HK steel is not butter with a black coating. In the realm of plastic moulding, you don't have the same sort of equipment replacement. Of course, I could be completely wrong, and if someone knows definitively one way or the other, we'd all benefit from hearing it.

[NiceHK]

The HK45 is "special" because we made it so, and before anyone goes pyrotechnic on me, this is coming from the guy who did the marketing vid for HK-USA on this model. People are obviously willing to pay the price for the HK45, even though a lot of us feel the good old USP45 does the same job for far less cash. When you compare the cost of the HK45 to that of the P30, there is a difference. The P30 is cheaper to buy, and I'd say it is cheaper to produce in the long run. One might argue that in the case of the P30, the buyer is paying for R&D recoup costs on plastics moulding (frame differences to accommodate grip panels, and the panels themselves). I'd retort that machining the O ring grooves implies the costs of replacement bits and saws. Both the barrel and the slide are cut to accommodate the O ring, and we know HK steel is not butter with a black coating. In the realm of plastic moulding, you don't have the same sort of equipment replacement. Of course, I could be completely wrong, and if someone knows definitively one way or the other, we'd all benefit from hearing it.

My bet is with Oakley's statement that simply it is not needed for the fact that the 9mm round does not produce enough shock where the o ring is needed to stabilize the access energy. I do not want to believe that HK cut a corner to make more profit on the p30 pistol. We all know that HK is an innovative company and in many respects a pioneering company. Again I just simply believe that the O-ring is not needed in this particular application. However if someone knows for sure I would like to hear about it. Currently all we have is speculation.

[gryhund66]

I don't presume to understand HK's logic of when to use or not to use an o ring but they do use it on 9mm. My 9mm Expert has on and I believe the Elite 9mm uses one also.






9mm Expert
PSP
Kahr CW9
USP45C
HK4
S&W 686+
Sig Trailside

[Montrala]

I don't presume to understand HK's logic of when to use or not to use an o ring but they do use it on 9mm. My 9mm Expert has on and I believe the Elite 9mm uses one also.

That's easy. Expert and Elite are sporting firearms, for customer who care for inherited acccuracy and are willing to pay for that. Same was for Match. Mark 23 and Tactical was made alos for users that rquire increased accuracy. Caliber has nothing to do here.

But P30 was designed solely for purpose to win tender for new German Border Guard pistol. P2000 was not fullfiling requirements of this tender (written more for Walther P99), so P30 was born. There was no requirement for o-ring barrel, while accuracy was within desired limit. Adding o-ring would increase gun price and reduce chances to win tender. Simple :)

[NiceHK]

That's easy. Expert and Elite are sporting firearms, for customer who care for inherited acccuracy and are willing to pay for that. Same was for Match. Mark 23 and Tactical was made alos for users that rquire increased accuracy. Caliber has nothing to do here.

But P30 was designed solely for purpose to win tender for new German Border Guard pistol. P2000 was not fullfiling requirements of this tender (written more for Walther P99), so P30 was born. There was no requirement for o-ring barrel, while accuracy was within desired limit. Adding o-ring would increase gun price and reduce chances to win tender. Simple :)


Thanks for chiming in Montrala. Your explanation makes good sense. Goes hand in hand with Rican's explanation. I hope HK at some point comes out with a Expert, Elite, or Tactical version of the p30L. For customers who want a most accurate pistol within the cutting edge design of the p30 series. Montrala let me ask you, have you had a chance to inspect a p30L yet? Do you feel that an O-ring would bring enough accuracy increase within the p30 series for HK to justify introducing an Tactical or Elite in p30L or does the cutting edge design of the p30 series make it already very accurate and a O-ring wouldn't bring much more to the table as far as accuracy is concerned? Thanks.

[orfeo]

If you do a search on here, you'll find TONS of discussions on the pros and cons of the o-ringed barrel.

If you fire a standard USP 45 from a rest, and compare it to a USP Tactical 45 fired from the same rest, you will see no discernable difference in accuracy. I am not saying that there is no possible advantage to an o-ringed barrel on an HK, just that whatever advantages there might be are very slight indeed. The o-ring is more hype than help. . . It is not a bad idea, but the net payoff is negligible.

I had a Corvette and went to do a tune-up. The guy in the store steered me to a "high-performance" expensive Accel cap, rotor, and yellow ignition wires. He showed me all the literature saying they were made better, with premium conductors, than "regular" parts. In fact, the salesman and the literature even promised a noticeable % increase in horsepower and driveability over other types. . . yes, I bought the better parts. Could I discern any difference? Not one bit. :)

PS: You can trust Scooter's opinions. He may come off a little rough around the edges at times, but he is HIGHLY knowledgeable. Don't let his apparent HK bashing fool you, he is as much of an addict as the rest of us. . . he just doesn't drink the Kool Aid.

[NiceHK]

^ Yes this forum has a great wealth of information. I will search out some more O-ring threads. BTW why do you feel they chose to put the O-ring on the HK45?

[orfeo]

^ Yes this forum has a great wealth of information. I will search out some more O-ring threads. BTW why do you feel they chose to put the O-ring on the HK45?

Not sure if your question is directed towards me, but my own opinion is that they included it to maintain continuity between it and the Mark 23, USP Tactical, and the USP Compact Tactical. Marketing.

I think the o-ring is a good idea with potential advantages, that just didn't pay off in a big way for the end-user. It MUST have some value to HK, or they would not bother with it. The value to HK could just be that threaded barrels and o-rings merely increase the profit potential. The o-ring is clearly unecessary, and is only offered on higher-end (translated: more expensive) models.

Kinda makes me think of GM. The "regular" Chevrolets get simple spring-lever-locks to operate the seatbacks, whereas my Eldorado had complicated mechanisms with something inside like a shock absorber (similar to the things that hold a hatchback open - I don't know what you call them). It was unecessarily complicated, but it helped to distinguish the Cadillac from the Chevrolet, and thereby attempting to rationalize the premium price difference between the two. The Eldorado had lots of pointless stuff like that on it. The Eldorado is an exagerated example, but it shows that just because a manufacturer includes something in its product, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is beneficial to the end-user. Sometimes, it's just another way of trying to inflate the hype. Pretty much, any company will serve some Kool Aid if they think you'll drink it. :)