Personal Carry

[BuckSolly]

I was wondering who of you carry a full size USP, and in what calibre. I plan on getting a full size USP (haven't yet decided on what calibre yet, although I'm leaning towards .40 S&W) and concealed carrying it. I just want to know your guys' general take on carrying a "larger" pistol.

Also, I want to know your guys' opinion on my leaning towards getting a USP .40. It seems like many of you are rocking 9mm, and I would like to know why. Is it a price of ammo thing, or do you just like firing the 9mm more? I personally want a round that has a solid punch (stopping capability) and think that a .40 could do that better than a 9mm. Price is also some of a concern for me, which is why I'm kinda shying away from a .45. I'm just a poor, lowly college student, and I plan on getting this pistol in the beginning of the summer when funds become available.

Also, I'm a new member, and this is my first post. I've always loved HK (brilliant company) and I've been really checking this forum out the past few days and I finally decided to make an account. Knowing that there's such an enthusiastic, experienced, and helpful community out there really makes me confident in my future purchase.

[Andre]

Hey,

I have a USP40 full size as well as a USP40 compact. The compact is my carry gun, but I've been hauling the full size along for the last couple of weeks now. Not that much different. The compact is slightly more comfortable to carry (I carry IWB and the shorter barrel is more comfy in the car and when sitting down).

I fitted some Heinie straight eight sights to my full size, hence the new love affair and additional attension. I grow a big rubbery one everytime I pick it up! Will be fitting the same sights to my comp soon. Also, full sized service pistols just tend to be better ballanced, in my opinion. Nothing wrong with a compact though.

As far as caliber is concerned, I dont think .40 is a better caliber than 9mm, but the USP was designed around the .40S&W. I prefer my Glocks in 9mm for the same reason. For me, the USP40 is just a tad better platform than the 9mm. I've shot both full size and compact, 9mm vs .40, side by side and I just prefer the .40. Load that puppy up with some 180gr Speer Gold Dots and your weapon needs are sorted.

Just remember, a gun is only a tool, you are the weapon at the end of the day. Just my 2c.

[bordercop]

I personally want a round that has a solid punch (stopping capability) and think that a .40 could do that better than a 9mm. Price is also some of a concern for me, which is why I'm kinda shying away from a .45.

you can't put a price on life. If a larger caliber will make you feel more comfortable, get the 45. If a higher round count makes you feel more comfortable (personally, I think higher capacity trains people to miss), get a 9mm. What makes you comfortable, is going to make you better. A gun fight is 90% mental.

As for stopping capability, any major caliber will cause someone to bleed out. Have a read of this:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

The .40 is generally accepted as the "one size fits most" caliber, and it does fit the bill most of the time. There may also be environmental considerations in caliber choice. For example Montana State Highway Patrol issues .357Sig because most of their shootings have been through car doors. So, they decided that they needed a little extra penetration.

As for concealability, I carry a USP45f on my 29" waist. The guy who got me started with conceal carry always kept a double stack 1911 variant on his belt. I prefer the full size over a compact because of the longer sight radius.

[givo08]

I personally want a round that has a solid punch (stopping capability) and think that a .40 could do that better than a 9mm. Price is also some of a concern for me, which is why I'm kinda shying away from a .45. I'm just a poor, lowly college student, and I plan on getting this pistol in the beginning of the summer when funds become available.

Don't get caught up in which caliber is going to stop someone more reliably with a single shot. Shot placement is much more important, and if you can practice 2x as much with 9mm due to the cost of practice ammo then you are going to have twice the trigger time and be a lot more competent with placing shots on target accurately and at speed than you will with a .40 or .45. Plus, most defensive classes teach to keep shooting until the threat stops, not just take one shot and hope it's good enough for a 1 shot stop--in this case, 16 rounds of 9mm is quite an advantage compared to 9 rounds of .45 imo.

I carry both depending on day (G19 or HK45c) and really don't feel any more or less comfortable with one vs. the other.

[BuckSolly]

Just remember, a gun is only a tool, you are the weapon at the end of the day. Just my 2c.

Very true. I didn't really think of it like that (obviously).

And yes, a 9mm will definitely do the trick. It does all come down to placement of shots. I really just like how f-in big .45s are. And having a .45 wouldn't make me feel more safe at all, I just like big rounds. So I'm not putting a price on life.

I also didn't think about the fact that if I buy a 9mm I can afford more ammo and thus shoot more often. Definitely something that I'm going to take into account now.


Just an aside, I hate all of my friends and family that say "you're never going to need a gun." We'll just ignore the fact that I like them. But if I only need it once in my lifetime, then everything will be well worth it.

[bordercop]

I also didn't think about the fact that if I buy a 9mm I can afford more ammo and thus shoot more often. Definitely something that I'm going to take into account now.

You don't always need ammo to practice. True that you can't get 100% trained and proficient without some actual range time. However, many times, dry firing can actually be more beneficial than blasting lead at the range. Not nearly as fun, of course, but more beneficial.

Just an aside, I hate all of my friends and family that say "you're never going to need a gun." We'll just ignore the fact that I like them. But if I only need it once in my lifetime, then everything will be well worth it.Ask your friends if the people in those Colorado churches, or the WV college thought they needed guns.

[H&K 4 LIFE]

We don't want the attacker to "bleed out" as this can take up to a few minutes depending on where they are hit. Penetration of vital organs, like the heart or brain, is the only way to cause an instant stop. The key to this is shot placement and the gun and caliber you can reliably hit center with is the one you should carry. Whether thats a 9mm, .40, or .45 will be different for everyone.

For those who say you don't need a handgun, use this old addage: "It is better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it." :)

[Volodymyr]

Personally I feel like .40 is a compromise round, so maybe if you are into compromising it is for you :D

If you are worried about caliber size take a .45, otherwise go 9mm. Someone said they think higher capacity trains you to miss, that is ridiculous, that's like saying scuba divers with pony bottles are training to run out of air or something!

In the real world you just very well might miss, in fact statistically you are very likely to miss. My dad has been a LEO for about 20 years and he swears he would always take the weapon with the higher capacity.

That being said I didn't choose 9mm for that reason. I chose 9mm for the cheap ammo, and after some deep research I was led to the conclusion that 9mm is wholly sufficient.

That being said, this debate goes back to almost when they first started making jacketed rounds. Do some research and you can find some good stuff. It was this image below that helped convince me 9mm is sufficient. Yes there is still the chance .45 is going to have a faster take down, but I, and thousands, feel prepared with our 9mm's.

I don't carry yet so can't speak to that, but I will be carrying my compact shortly. I think full-size is certainly doable, but unless you are real worried about magazine capacity the compact seems to be a perfect carry gun. Or if the full just fits your hand way better or something I guess.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

[hwjohn]

I own a USPc . 40 and P2000SK . 40, as well as a USPc 9mm.

The biggest disadvantage the . 40 has (to me) is the perceived recoil. The .40 has a "sharp", quick recoil that makes it feel more harsh than the .45, and definetely more harsh than the 9mm. Having said that, the recoil doesn't bother me that much because I shoot a good bit and I am used to it. I would venture to say that people who don't get a chance to shoot often would place better follow up shots with a 9mm.

The thing I like about the .40 round is the same thing that Volodymyr doesn't like about it, that it is somewhat of a compromise between 9mm and .45. You typically get a higher round count and a smaller gun with a .40 in comparison to a .45 (important for concealment). In terms of "1 shot stop" statistics, the .40 has a good street record from the numbers I have seen. It seems to be close to the performance of the .45 and better than the 9mm. Of course, you have to take all these surveys and stuff with a grain of salt. You also have to realize that under such stressful conditions, a 1 shot stop probably has a lot to do with being lucky.

In the end, choosing a gun that you shoot well and you are confident in is far more important that any other factor. If you shoot all three equally as well, then you can start deciding based on these other things.

EDIT: I thought I would chime in on the concealment issue. IMHO, you can't have a gun small enough for concealed carry, which is why I bought my P2000SK. If HK made a smaller .40, I would have probably bought it. It isn't that you can't conceal a Compact or even a Full size, but rather that your options get limited if you want any kind of comfort. You can carry about anything you want in a shoulder holster, but when you start going IWB and so forth, bigger guns are definetely more uncomfortable. It is also very important to get a holster that works well for you. I doubt you will ever see anybody complain about their carry gun being too small, but you will see plenty of people who complain about it being too large.

[RRMan03]

I hope the FBI did not invest to much money in that study.Everybody in American nows that.Bullets have come a long way since 1989.

[Volodymyr]

In terms of "1 shot stop" statistics, the .40 has a good street record from the numbers I have seen. It seems to be close to the performance of the .45 and better than the 9mm. Of course, you have to take all these surveys and stuff with a grain of salt. You also have to realize that under such stressful conditions, a 1 shot stop probably has a lot to do with being lucky.

One shot stop relies on two things, luck, and the desired effect. If your desired effect is to subdue the situation, and the guy isn't cracked out, and not all that motivated, one shot will probably drop him in pain. If your target is cracked out, and insane, few pistols are going to get a 1-shot stop from anything more than luck, and you shouldn't practice for a 1-shot stop either, you should always double-tap.

40 can be a good compromise here, I said that a little sarcastically because I intended to get a 40 until about 3 days before I bought my 9mm. The 9mm, the 40, nor the 45 will do you wrong- there is a reason they are all popular calibers right now- and that is because they are all great calibers.

Now we may carry for different reasons, but we should all at least be prepared for the worst. You train double tap, with a 45 that gives you 4 baddies you can take out without a single miss/jam/dud allowed. Gee 4 might sound like a lot of guys, but you sure would hate yourself if that 5th guy was the one that succeeded because you were too busy reloading. Yea okay, a situation against 5 baddies might be unlikely, and being in said situation where taking the time to reload is the difference between life and death is even more unlikely (since taking out 4 baddies already means you must have some time to spare)... but the chances of you not missing a single shot are also very unlikely. Now think about targets who are really determined.

Many may scoff, but this is why I [will] carry. Not to stop that would-be mugger in the streets, hell I know where I'm going, no big deal. But rather to stop that lunatic in the mall who intends to take a dozen people out with him, because those dozen people might not know where they are going.

[H&K 4 LIFE]

The .40 is in no way a "compromise" round. Capacity like a 9mm and bullet weight almost akin to a .45 has already been mentioned. But in addition, when dealing with sub-compact handguns in particular, the .40 beats the .45 hands down. The high-pressure .40 has much better performance from short barreled firearms then the low-pressure .45. Also, going just by the chart you posted, we can clearly see that the .40 is cooking at nearly 100-200 fps. faster (depending on bullet weight) then the .45. This means better penetration and less deflection of the round when shooting through obstacles such as car doors or winshield glass. Every caliber has it's proper application. Where you say "compromise", I say "well rounded".

If you dislike the .40 simply because of it's felt recoil then maybe it isn't the round for you. Personally, I have found the .40 quite controllable with regular practice and I have no reservations about carrying either a 9mm or .40 caliber handgun. I have yet to own a .45, but I would have no problems with one of those either. Caliber is not one size fits all and this is yet another reason why manufacturers offer their handguns in multiple different chamberings.

[hwjohn]

One shot stop relies on two things, luck, and the desired effect. If your desired effect is to subdue the situation, and the guy isn't cracked out, and not all that motivated, one shot will probably drop him in pain. If your target is cracked out, and insane, few pistols are going to get a 1-shot stop from anything more than luck, and you shouldn't practice for a 1-shot stop either, you should always double-tap.

40 can be a good compromise here, I said that a little sarcastically because I intended to get a 40 until about 3 days before I bought my 9mm. The 9mm, the 40, nor the 45 will do you wrong- there is a reason they are all popular calibers right now- and that is because they are all great calibers.

Now we may carry for different reasons, but we should all at least be prepared for the worst. You train double tap, with a 45 that gives you 4 baddies you can take out without a single miss/jam/dud allowed. Gee 4 might sound like a lot of guys, but you sure would hate yourself if that 5th guy was the one that succeeded because you were too busy reloading. Yea okay, a situation against 5 baddies might be unlikely, and being in said situation where taking the time to reload is the difference between life and death is even more unlikely (since taking out 4 baddies already means you must have some time to spare)... but the chances of you not missing a single shot are also very unlikely. Now think about targets who are really determined.

Many may scoff, but this is why I [will] carry. Not to stop that would-be mugger in the streets, hell I know where I'm going, no big deal. But rather to stop that lunatic in the mall who intends to take a dozen people out with him, because those dozen people might not know where they are going.

I agree with everything you said here. I would never rely on a "one shot stop" tactic, but a one shot stop is always the best situation. When I refer to a one shot stop, I mean a shot that instantly takes away the ability for the attacker to continue. A one shot stop is always the best case scenario, but it is definetely a bad idea to train for the best case scenario.

By the way, in terms of my desired effect... if I use my weapon in self defense, I have come to the point that it is necessary to kill the attacker. I wouldn't pull a gun to subdue a situation because I'm not a cop. If it comes out of the holster then that means my life or someone else's life is threatened and there is no other way to end it.

All that being said any of the HK's in 9, 40, or 45 is sufficient for self defense. I'd put getting a good quality firearm that you know will go bang (aka HK) far above caliber selection.