Tooling marks on the HK45 slide

[uscTF]

Anyone else find these type of circular tooling marks on the HK45s? Obviously doesn't affect function, but still a bummer on a $950+ handgun. I'm selling it cheap to buy another (that doesn't have them : ) ), but I just wanted to let everyone know so that they can look out for it when purchasing (I didn't. In fact, I didn't even notice them for a few weeks). I returned to the place of purchase, just to check out the rest of his stock, and none of the others had the marks. The marks are between every one of the serrations on the ejection side of the slide. The other side of the slide is flawless.

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/2882/hk45detailuj0.jpg

[Bentonville]

I would call Hk CS, talk to Travis, arrange for them to look at it and probably receive a new gun if all the marks are factory induced. I have found CS to be very customer oriented. Good Luck.

[Sobriquet]

Nope, not on mine. Call HK- no reason for you to take a hit for their defect. They'll make this kind of problem right.

[uscTF]

You guys are right. No reason for me to take the big $ hit for a QC-related problem (they are most definitely, and without question, factory induced - the finish was applied over these marks), just because its the quickest "fix." I'll call Travis and see what can be done. This has to be an anomoly. I've never had a bad experience with HK products. I'm sure that they will make things right.

[Va_Dinger]

The HK45 is a mass produced handgun, not some custom built 1911 safe queen.

To expect every tiny thing to be absolutely flawless to be point of needing magnification to notice it is absurd.

Just go shoot it.

[straightgrain]

A Mercedes Benz is also mass produced. And if I am spending my money on it, I would still expect to not see those tooling marks. Marks that *I* add are one thing. But it is wholly reasonable to have high expectations of fit and finish when one is spending their hard earned dollars. Tool marks such as described are not the norm and acceptance of same should not be "how it is". Give HK the chance to make good and to live up to your expectations.

[johnnyjohnny]

I agree with straightgrain.

Johnny

[MaverickH1]

I would hope they'd laugh at you for asking for a replacement. And you can't compare it to a vehicle body. Vehicle bodies are made in a way where machining isn't necessary. These slides are not. So you WILL have tooling marks on some of them. The large picture puts it quite a bit out of proportion.

Some people need to realize that HK is still a functional minded company. They do not make any gun that is made to sit in a display case. A true display case firearm will cost much more than an HK, because the tooling has to be maintained much better, the piece has to be machined much slower, their will be hand work required, there will be more inspection to make sure it looks okay, etc, etc. That's not what an HK is.

Besides, if this is something you didn't want you should've taken care of it when you bought it. If you bought a Mercedes Benz from a dealer and it had a smashed bumper when you bought it... it's your mistake for driving it off the showroom floor like that.

[straightgrain]

Maverick,
While I do agree that this should have been caught before he left the store, I still do not think it is unreasonable to expect a lack of tooling marks of the kind shown in the picture. None of my HK's display those marks and I have an embarrassing number of HK's... There's a difference between reasonable expectations and "concours" quality. At the level of HK, I would think that it is reasonable to expect that those kind of marks not be present.

[Mouseboy]

Maverick,
While I do agree that this should have been caught before he left the store, I still do not think it is unreasonable to expect a lack of tooling marks of the kind shown in the picture. None of my HK's display those marks and I have an embarrassing number of HK's... There's a difference between reasonable expectations and "concours" quality. At the level of HK, I would think that it is reasonable to expect that those kind of marks not be present.

I agree, someone didn't change out the cutter bit when they should have, plain and simple "scratch and dent." I'm sure HK would not approve of that slide getting out of their QC process

[MaverickH1]

Maverick,
While I do agree that this should have been caught before he left the store, I still do not think it is unreasonable to expect a lack of tooling marks of the kind shown in the picture. None of my HK's display those marks and I have an embarrassing number of HK's... There's a difference between reasonable expectations and "concours" quality. At the level of HK, I would think that it is reasonable to expect that those kind of marks not be present.

Again, if this weren't a LEO and military produced firearm, I'd agree. But as we all know HK makes these guns for those communities. And since those target customers specify the product specifications to be a functional firearm, HK makes it to fit their needs at the lowest cost possible. If they tried to make every gun not have tooling marks they'd end up with a weaker slide or a higher manufacturing cost in an attempt to eliminate those small tooling marks.

I'd compare it to back when the Hummer H1 was being bought by people who usually drive Bentleys. Just because a couple Bentley drivers complain that the H1 is loud doesn't mean AM General should waste the money to put sound insulation inside the military Humvee. As they'd probably lose the much larger contracts if they increased cost for something the large customer didn't specify.

And how far does it go? I mean look at the polymer frame, at the rear of the grip, in the middle. Should they replace your frame because of the molding line there?

As for your collection Straightgrain, I'm kind of suprised. My very modest collection of 3 slides (2 guns, 3 slides) shows both my USP stainless and HE slide have the toolmarks in the same location. The P2000sk does not. I'll be getting 3 more slides soon to check out.

[Va_Dinger]

I would hope they'd laugh at you for asking for a replacement.


I was thinking the same thing and could not agree more.

If this type of stuff truly bothers anybody my suggestion is to stop buying mass produced firearms because they are all built to this standard. They are not intended to be scrutinized like a custom/collectible firearm costing thousands of dollars more. The mere fact that YOU have decided to collect them and make them "Collectable" does not change the facts of what it is - A Weapon. I have seen similar marks on semi-custom 1911's, Sig, Berretta, Smith & Wesson, and Glock pistols. Too send it back or even complain is ridiculous.

[MadMax2012]

Unbelievable... absolutely unbelieveable.


You didn't buy a Bentley. You bought a mass produced, combat oriented handgun.... for under $1,000 I might add.

The thing probably shoots lights out... and you would be willing (not will take it) to trade it in for an extremely minor aesthetic issue (for what might turn out to be an aesthetically perfect replacement that is functionally flawed).


"I'm entitled!" That phrase has been over used and over broadened to make most Americans into flat out weak kneed whiners.

As an American you are entitled to life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness. Everything else you make of it what you will. And you will have to pay a heck of a lot more than $1,000 to get it too.

Rant off

[08G37S]

I can understand the OP reason for posting - but I had to look for the tool marks pretty good. I am a perfectionist, but I would let something this minimal go. It is a pistol that will get worn....think of the marks as a little bit of character.

To the quote below, well said!

Unbelievable... absolutely unbelieveable.


You didn't buy a Bentley. You bought a mass produced, combat oriented handgun.... for under $1,000 I might add.

The thing probably shoots lights out... and you would be willing (not will take it) to trade it in for an extremely minor aesthetic issue (for what might turn out to be an aesthetically perfect replacement that is functionally flawed).


"I'm entitled!" That phrase has been over used and over broadened to make most Americans into flat out weak kneed whiners.

As an American you are entitled to life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness. Everything else you make of it what you will. And you will have to pay a heck of a lot more than $1,000 to get it too.

Rant off

[johnnyjohnny]

Unbelievable... absolutely unbelieveable.


You didn't buy a Bentley. You bought a mass produced, combat oriented handgun.... for under $1,000 I might add.

The thing probably shoots lights out... and you would be willing (not will take it) to trade it in for an extremely minor aesthetic issue (for what might turn out to be an aesthetically perfect replacement that is functionally flawed).


"I'm entitled!" That phrase has been over used and over broadened to make most Americans into flat out weak kneed whiners.

As an American you are entitled to life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness. Everything else you make of it what you will. And you will have to pay a heck of a lot more than $1,000 to get it too.

Rant off

LoL! How did this get to the Declaration of Independence!!?? Did you forget your meds?

Johnny

[straightgrain]

Folks, folks... no reason for ad hominem attacks or for bringing the Constitution into this! We can all have differences of opinion. It doesn't make any of us wrong or right, just different.

Perhaps I have been lucky in that my HK's do not show tool marks? Maybe it's just that the finish is hiding them? Not sure. But it really doesn't matter. If tool marks on a mass produced gun bother you, then make sure to inspect closely for one that doesn't show them. It's your money any you are entitled to spend it how you please. Expectations are funny things. They are set by individuals and usually in a comparative and relative process. If $500 is a lot of money to you, then spending a $1000 on a pistol is going to generate expectations that some may find unreasonable. If $500 is not a big deal for you, then please adopt me <ggg>!

:100000:

[ARKAY.357]

Who let the (mad) dogs out? Why do some of you guys find it necessary to attack and berate someone who has a question?

GIVE IT A BREAK!

ARKAY

[cmdrdredd]

Who let the (mad) dogs out? Why do some of you guys find it necessary to attack and berate someone who has a question?

GIVE IT A BREAK!

ARKAY

Because there is a thread for every little flaw. "Can H&K replace my gun for this?" and it's something you can hardly even see, or something they did themselves (no names please).

Point is, this firearm isn't a hand made piece of art. This is a weapon made for duty usage. We have many threads in the past 2 months regarding something they want H&K to fix or replace. It's no wonder they have a record of poor service, they won't replace a gun that has a mark so minor that it's not even noticable unless you zoom in on that spot. Yet you have someone who will come online and say "H&K wouldn't replace my gun. They have poor service." or some other nonsense.

[ARKAY.357]

Because there is a thread for every little flaw. "Can H&K replace my gun for this?" and it's something you can hardly even see, or something they did themselves (no names please).

Point is, this firearm isn't a hand made piece of art. This is a weapon made for duty usage. We have many threads in the past 2 months regarding something they want H&K to fix or replace. It's no wonder they have a record of poor service, they won't replace a gun that has a mark so minor that it's not even noticable unless you zoom in on that spot. Yet you have someone who will come online and say "H&K wouldn't replace my gun. They have poor service." or some other nonsense.



If correctly read, it seems that the OP was neither whineing or asking for anything; but was simply posting and offering a heads up to others here in the HK community so as to avoid receiving flawed merchandise. It would seem that the guy deserves a Thank You instead being made to feel like a reprobate.

JMO...

ARKAY

[MaverickH1]

If correctly read, it seems that the OP was neither whineing or asking for anything; but was simply posting and offering a heads up to others here in the HK community so as to avoid receiving flawed merchandise. It would seem that the guy deserves a Thank You instead being made to feel like a reprobate.

JMO...

ARKAY

Except that he posted later and said:

You guys are right. No reason for me to take the big $ hit for a QC-related problem (they are most definitely, and without question, factory induced - the finish was applied over these marks), just because its the quickest "fix." I'll call Travis and see what can be done. This has to be an anomoly. I've never had a bad experience with HK products. I'm sure that they will make things right.

[Scooter]

A HK45 does not even register on the scale of expensive guns. A $70,000 Perazzi is an expensive gun. It's $70,000 for a reason, you won't find any tool marks there.

But for a production gun, you will get tool marks here or there. Just check the inside of your slide or the barrel. Lots of tool marks there. Look in the frame and you will still see flashing from the plastic injection process. How about the plastic next to the rails that chip away.

[cmdrdredd]

If correctly read, it seems that the OP was neither whineing or asking for anything; but was simply posting and offering a heads up to others here in the HK community so as to avoid receiving flawed merchandise. It would seem that the guy deserves a Thank You instead being made to feel like a reprobate.

JMO...

ARKAY

Maybe, but his posts later were looking for replacement with direct complaint of this "flaw". The point is, lately we have has to see things like this posted many times by various people. "Is this a flaw? should I call HK?" it's just getting a bit old.

Also, how can you avoid getting "flawed" merchandise if you don't get your gun locally? You can't.

[MaverickH1]

Perhaps I have been lucky in that my HK's do not show tool marks? Maybe it's just that the finish is hiding them? Not sure. But it really doesn't matter. If tool marks on a mass produced gun bother you, then make sure to inspect closely for one that doesn't show them. It's your money any you are entitled to spend it how you please. Expectations are funny things. They are set by individuals and usually in a comparative and relative process. If $500 is a lot of money to you, then spending a $1000 on a pistol is going to generate expectations that some may find unreasonable. If $500 is not a big deal for you, then please adopt me <ggg>!

:100000:

You must have gotten lucky, I can count about 30+ arches on one side of my USP slide. If I had a good enough camera I'd take pictures and post 'em up.

But yes, I'd certainly agree that we can mark this down as a customer having higher expectations than the people inside the HK factory are told to have.

[ARKAY.357]

Except that he posted later and said:


This guy changed his mind because of the suggestions of others. This alone doesn't lend merit to the accusations and demeaning remarks made by those who contributed. This argument is pointless, thus the end of my participation.

Regards;

ARKAY

[cmdrdredd]

This guy changed his mind because of the suggestions of others. This alone doesn't lend merit to the accusations and demeaning remarks made by those who contributed. This argument is pointless, thus the end of my participation.

Regards;

ARKAY

Well, if they're normal which they most definately ARE, then there's no need to complain and try to exchange. I bet nobody at HK will do anything. They lose so much money by replacing non-defective merchandise.

[straightgrain]

A lot of my HK's do have tooling marks on the inside (inside of the slide) and the various plastic seams, etc. But the outward appearance of the metal doesn't show any issues.

Again, I can understand both sides of the equation. If this is something that bothers you at whatever price you spend, then check it out carefully before you leave the store. And make sure you completely understand the return/exchange policy if you are not buying it locally (not that you shouldn't anyway). There are actually many dealers who will "hand pick" a weapon for you and charge accordingly.

I see no reason to vilify the OP. He is certainly within his "rights" to ask if HK CS will take care of him. They might and they might not. We all have a right to express our opinion on either side of this, but there's really no reason to resort to personal attacks or outbursts of rancor because of a felt slight of HK's generosity.

[straightgrain]

Well, if they're normal which they most definately ARE, then there's no need to complain and try to exchange. I bet nobody at HK will do anything. They lose so much money by replacing non-defective merchandise.

I wouldn't take either side of the bet. And what data to do you have to corroborate your statement about loss of money on "non-defective merchandise"? Really. While customer service is, indeed, an expense for each and every company that deals with the public, it is unlikely that those figures are available to just anyone.

[Scooter]

HK won't lose money over this. YOU end up paying for it the next time you buy a HK.

[MaverickH1]

HK won't lose money over this. YOU end up paying for it the next time you buy a HK.

Yup. And if people start returning a ton of slides (the most expensive part to make on the polymer pistols) and HK actually replaces them... it'll hit the sale price pretty hard.

[Sobriquet]

HK won't lose money over this. YOU end up paying for it the next time you buy a HK.

I disagree. They're a business. If the expense of returned merchandise from QC problems starts to rise, they'll invest in better QC. They won't price themselves out of the market.

The OP didn't use the word entitled, he didn't use the word demand. He asked whether his slide was of normal quality for HK. It's not, so I don't see why some here want to attack him for asking HK to remedy the situation. If we attack people for asking questions on this forum, it'll cease to be a place for meaningful discussion. Go easy, guys.

[MaverickH1]

I disagree. They're a business. If the expense of returned merchandise from QC problems starts to rise, they'll invest in better QC. They won't price themselves out of the market.

The OP didn't use the word entitled, he didn't use the word demand. He asked whether his slide was of normal quality for HK. It's not, so I don't see why some here want to attack him for asking HK to remedy the situation. If we attack people for asking questions on this forum, it'll cease to be a place for meaningful discussion. Go easy, guys.

Right, they're a business. And where do businesses get their money? From customers. So if they give out "free" stuff, it is ultimately paid for by the customers.

Better QC costs money. It costs money because it requires more employees, in some cases if requires better machinery, in other cases it requires a higher scrap rate because you declare some material unfit for your product, and in some cases it requires inspection measuring equipment that can be very costly.

But I still don't think anyone really attacked him (or her)... and those machine marks are normal on some HKs. Not too dissimilar from the purple extractor club.

[Sobriquet]

Right, they're a business. And where do businesses get their money? From customers. So if they give out "free" stuff, it is ultimately paid for by the customers.

It's not free. It's a replacement for a defective product that shouldn't have been sold as new.

[MaverickH1]

It's not free. It's a replacement for a defective product that shouldn't have been sold as new.

Then who pays for it?

[straightgrain]

Okay. One last comment and it's time to bow out. (Unless I just cannot...) Some people would say that the going rate of the price of an HK handgun versus, say, a Glock, is reason enough for higher expectations. In that sense, all of us are already paying for the higher QC, CS, and replacement. It may not actually be the case, but there it is.

I think that a consumer is justified to be be disappointed if there are tooling marks such as are described. An HK may cost almost double what a similar Glock does. Does one have the reasonable expectation that it is almost twice as good? Maybe, maybe not. This is part of the endless consumer products value equation. Ultimately, only HK can decide what an appropriate response is to the perceived issue and only we, as consumers, can decide if HK is offering value for what is charged for their product.

If HK's response is to take care of this and all of the other similar issues and prices rise accordingly, then folks will either stop paying the increased prices or they will accept that they are paying for increased CS. It's a market thing that's calculus resides in the books of HK.

[uscTF]

The post was intended to ask fellow board members for advice I'm having with a cosmetic issue. Yeah, a cosmetic issue just like the guys who post questions about the finish on a slide release, or the finish on a slide...what, now we can't ask questions about this type of thing? And, where did I ever say that I was going to ask to have a replacement sent to me? Some guy posts that complete misstatement (Maverick...), then some guys come on and post behind him (or her) and pat him (or her) on the back. Lame. Re-read my post...the marks are in each and every serration on that side of the slide (front and back serrations). I'll make my own dings and dents using the weapon as the tool it was intended to be....no problem. In fact, I won't think twice about it. However, a brand new $950+ gun shouldn't come off the line like this. One or two tooling marks...o.k....who cares...but you're telling me that multiple tooling marks in 15 serrations on one side of the HK45 is nothing to even post a question about? A sincere thanks to the guys who offered advice and or came to my defense.

[uscTF]

Maybe, but his posts later were looking for replacement with direct complaint of this "flaw". The point is, lately we have has to see things like this posted many times by various people. "Is this a flaw? should I call HK?" it's just getting a bit old.

Also, how can you avoid getting "flawed" merchandise if you don't get your gun locally? You can't.

What posts later were asking for replacement. What the heck are you talking about. I only posted twice (original and a follow-up thank you) before responding to all of this crap. Please go back and re-read.

[MaverickH1]

And, where did I ever say that I was going to ask to have a replacement sent to me? Some guy posts that complete misstatement (VA Dinger), then some guys come on and post behind him and pat him on the back. Lame.

You guys are right. No reason for me to take the big $ hit for a QC-related problem (they are most definitely, and without question, factory induced - the finish was applied over these marks), just because its the quickest "fix." I'll call Travis and see what can be done. This has to be an anomoly. I've never had a bad experience with HK products. I'm sure that they will make things right.

Your second post implied you wanted them to fix it. And the fix would be to either replace the slide or to take off more material and then refinish the slide. And they probably wouldn't send it back to the machines to take a couple thousandths of material off. So IF they fixed it they'd most likely have to replace it.

My statement was made to say they should not fix it because it's a natural side effect to machining parts. That's what almost everyone was saying. If you could see my USP, you'd laugh at how insignificant those couple of marks are on yours. Like I said, I can count at least 30 rings on one side of the serrations and the other side isn't any better. And then if you really get picky, you can start pointing out the machining lines that go across the slide. And the lines that come from the plastic molding process. Etc, etc.

But hey, I guess it's different to me because I haven't spent more than $595 on any of mine. I think it's kind of crazy to spend the $950 some are spending, but it must be nice to be able to do so! :)

But please, call them. And let us know what they say. I'd be very interested in the response.

[drt]

Wow. From a newbie's perspective, the flack and overall condescending comments this guy took for his post is disheartening. It'll sure make me think twice about posting on this board.

To the OP: My HK45 doesn't have the tooling marks either. I'm sorry you have to deal with hassell of trying to get it resolved.


And if all of the bashers are right, and that this type of QC should be expected from HK... then maybe HK weapons should be around the 5 to 600 dollar mark. Stick them down there with the Glocks, CZ's, etc. because apparently we can't expect better quality paying double the price.

[uscTF]

Your second post implied you wanted them to fix it. And the fix would be to either replace the slide or to take off more material and then refinish the slide. And they probably wouldn't send it back to the machines to take a couple thousandths of material off. So IF they fixed it they'd most likely have to replace it.

My statement was made to say they should not fix it because it's a natural side effect to machining parts. That's what almost everyone was saying. If you could see my USP, you'd laugh at how insignificant those couple of marks are on yours. Like I said, I can count at least 30 rings on one side of the serrations and the other side isn't any better. And then if you really get picky, you can start pointing out the machining lines that go across the slide. And the lines that come from the plastic molding process. Etc, etc.

But hey, I guess it's different to me because I haven't spent more than $595 on any of mine. I think it's kind of crazy to spend the $950 some are spending, but it must be nice to be able to do so! :)

But please, call them. And let us know what they say. I'd be very interested in the response.

I just posted to let everyone see it, and ask if others have seen it. And no I didn't imply that HK should "fix it." In fact, please re-read...I said that selling it would be the "quick fix." I then followed with I'll call Travis to see if, IF, anything can be done. This was at the suggestion of another poster who was offering help. I demanded nothing more from HK, and I expect nothing more from HK. If they offer to do something, great. If not, oh well. What would it hurt to call Travis and chat with him about it?

You know what Maverick, if I expected them to replace it, I would be an A-hole, but I don't. For the record, this is not my first HK, and I am not a new board member. All is cool. No harm done. Have a good one.

[MaverickH1]

I'm sure that they will make things right.

That part is what made me think you expected them to fix it. Or that you'd get one of those free t-shirts out of it :) In which case, I guess I deserve 12 of them for the slides I've got...

But seriously, just let us know what he says when you call.

[cbrenn71]

i just checked mine out, and guess what, it has the same tooling marks in 2 areas.

not really concerned, as it hasn't been noticed until now, nearly 3 months after i purchased it.

it's a gun, i expect it to go bang, and that's why i bought an HK. i bought it to perform when others won't, and am not concerned about the tooling marks on there, although others may have a different opinion.

[cmdrdredd]

I wouldn't take either side of the bet. And what data to do you have to corroborate your statement about loss of money on "non-defective merchandise"? Really. While customer service is, indeed, an expense for each and every company that deals with the public, it is unlikely that those figures are available to just anyone.

It's well known to anyone who has ever worked in any environment when there's a posibility for a returned prodct. It costs that company money.

[cmdrdredd]

Wow. From a newbie's perspective, the flack and overall condescending comments this guy took for his post is disheartening. It'll sure make me think twice about posting on this board.

To the OP: My HK45 doesn't have the tooling marks either. I'm sorry you have to deal with hassell of trying to get it resolved.


And if all of the bashers are right, and that this type of QC should be expected from HK... then maybe HK weapons should be around the 5 to 600 dollar mark. Stick them down there with the Glocks, CZ's, etc. because apparently we can't expect better quality paying double the price.

1) German machinery and engineering are always more expensive.
2) None of the HKs are built in the US yet so you can't compare it to something as mass produced as a Glock.
3) HK did and does more R&D than Glock or CZ has since their designs haven't changed in many years. Same with Walther. When there's a new gun released, that is markable different than past offerings it will be costly.


Anyhow, my original point is this. The past few months on this forum have blown up with reports of people having "issues" with the finish or some QC issue about their HK. Normally it's not a big deal, but we all know of a couple incidents where HK would not replace the "defective" gun or part. They have a standard that they adhere to. They will pass a product through as long as it is up to their standards. By all accounts, these "tooling marks" are nothing to be concerned about. I'd be willing to bet that as far as they are concerned everything is in order. Over time, any gun no matter the brand will show some signs of wear. New in box guns don't typically have many cosmetic flaws. There will be a few, but it's nothing to get worked up over. Unless you plan to clean it and lock it in a safe forever, but that's really your choice. The heart of the matter as far as I'm concerned is the number of people posting about everything from these tooling marks which are normal for a part which is machined, to wear on a slide release lever which has been mentioned hundreds of times in various threads, to someone worried about wear on a part that gets constant metal on metal contact (serial numbers on the chamber) has gotten out of hand. It seems to me that many of these threads wouldn't exist if they didn't read the forum and find a different issue and feel the need to come here and mention it. If you're concerned that badly about the quality of your gun, call the manufacturer and see if they will help you. It's not that I mind people posting concerns, but the number of them that seem to pop up and shoot HK's name down to be a piece of junk. Maybe that last sentence is a bit much, but that's what it sometimes seems like. That some people just want to smear mud in our face over a minor issue. I'm not saying that the OP had this agenda in mind, but it's almost like the little kids comparing their new bikes. It makes me laugh when I think about it "your bike sucks because it isn't as shiny as mine."

Well, I think I pretty much said what I mean to say. It's a gun, go shoot it.

[Scooter]

I disagree. They're a business. If the expense of returned merchandise from QC problems starts to rise, they'll invest in better QC. They won't price themselves out of the market.

That expense gets passed on to YOU on future purchases. Companies won't take a loss, they just charge it back to the customers.

It's like stealing from a store. The store doesn't write it off as a loss. They take the replacement cost and factor it into other products. So YOU get to pay for it. It's never a loss on the companies part. It's like the guy that messed up his finish. YOU get to pay for it.

[cmdrdredd]

That expense gets passed on to YOU on future purchases. Companies won't take a loss, they just charge it back to the customers.

It's like stealing from a store. The store doesn't write it off as a loss. They take the replacement cost and factor it into other products. So YOU get to pay for it. It's never a loss on the companies part. It's like the guy that messed up his finish. YOU get to pay for it.

Actually I worked retail for many years and the company does take a loss. Then people lose jobs, and eventually a store may close as a result of too much theft.

Most times however, they'll just do something to make it more of a PITA on the shopper. Price hikes is one factor in a myriad of ways they can get people. Stricter return policies is another.

Somewhat off topic...sorry

[hwjohn]

QC in most companies as large as HK is normally very strict, even for cosmetic flaws. I used to work for a major bearing manufacturer, and if there was any cosmetic flaw in a part, it was scrapped. We scrapped tons of perfectly good bearings just because they had a cosmetic mark on it.

Now, that was for bearings that were less than $10 each... and that would go in car and likely never be seen again. Based on that experience, one would think that HK would not let a gun with tooling marks leave the factory. At least not intentionally.

Just a thought.

[Sobriquet]

It's like the guy that messed up his finish. YOU get to pay for it.

There's a big difference between this and that HK45 finish guy. The OP didn't screw up his own gun.

I swear... I've been a collector of mechanical watches for years and frequent boards specializing in those topics. If there's a problem with something, the board says so, and expects the company to remedy the problem.

I'm new to firearms, granted, but I'm shocked to see the number of apologists. I love my HK45 and I'm very satisfied. Other people should get the same quality product I received if they're paying for the same thing.

We're all here because we like HK. Sometimes the best thing you can do for a brand you support is encourage it to do right by its customers.

[Scooter]

Look at it this way, if tooling marks were unacceptable, everyone would be sending back their gun. Just about every USP barrel has tooling marks along the side of the chamber.

[Chui]

While it should have been caught I don't think for a second that I'd even consider complaining about it. The HK45 is a fighting tool that you purchased as a hobbyist. Just like 99.9 percent of us. Get over it. They are not likely to accomodate you.

[steelshooter]

I would not bother to get a new one for this but if its a problem for you i say go for it.

[uscTF]

While it should have been caught I don't think for a second that I'd even consider complaining about it. The HK45 is a fighting tool that you purchased as a hobbyist. Just like 99.9 percent of us. Get over it. They are not likely to accomodate you.

"get over it?...some of you guys are just getting plain goofy, and you wouldn't say half of this crap if it was face to face...you'd treat someone like a decent human being. I didn't complain, guy. I simply showed the marks and ask if anyone else had seen them, etc. Some decent guy, said basically, "give HK a call and see if it's normal or out of the ordinary." Information post only asking for advice. Some of you guys should re-read the original posts and not go off half-cocked continuing to put words into my mouth. I can't believe the number of posters piling on a misstatement (misstatement by a follow-up poster, nonetheless). Let's just end this thread...it's getting out of hand.

[Oakley Davies]

Yes it's a combat handgun not a collectors grade weapon.
However if they are going to sell firearms with cosmetic flaws they need to change from "No Compromise" to "Just a Few Small Compromises".

[ltbarber]

my $.02. when you pay for a haircut in my barbershop,there are no lines in your hair. your hair will not show any tool marks from the tools I use on you. I would hope that a first-rate company like H&K could maintain the same standard. I don't think it's about entitlement. It's about pride in your work. If I pay what a HK45 cost,I don't think it should bear tool marks on the exterior of the firearm. This has always been a firearm industry standard. I don't think it's a slight to H&K,and I also don't think it's too much to ask,or expect. Everything we have been discussing in this thread,is a sign of the current times,and the way thing seem to be going................

[MadMax2012]

Ok.... we have a watch collector and a barber chiming in on their "perceived" QC standards for a combat handgun.

Point of clarification people. H&K handguns were designed and manufactured for WARRIORS. I find it humorous that this needed clarifying.

If you read enough threads here you will see a lot of posts of people saying H&K doesn't care about civilians sales because they are trying to fill the big government orders (hence the poor customer service etc.). The government is buying these for their WARRIORS.

Warriors want and need a gun that fires every time under all of the conditions that they may need it to fire under. Warriors see function first and tacticool last (tacticool = aesthetics).

Weekend warriors see Weekday warriors with H&K and want to imitate them... but since they only have a romantic "idea" of warriors they are disappointed when the equipment they buy does not match their "idea".

[Cut to scene of Roman times with nobleman watching a Roman Legion fight to defend the city with swords to great effect... then nobleman buying sword from Legion supplier only to complain about the "tooling marks" on it.... (Legion laughing in the background)]

Warriors these days are Marines, Navy, Army... police etc..
Noblemen these days are... everyone else.

Buy S&W.... or Sig.... use them under the condition an H&K is designed to work under and you may come to see it's "raison d'être".

Don't forget to check for tooling marks on the S&W and Sig while your at it.:D

[drt]

Add in an expert on WARRIORS and this thread is complete! hehe.

Anyway, neither of my sigs nor my friends smith m&p has that "superior craftsmanship" on them. But we didn't pay double their prices for a more quality weapon, its was imitating WARRIORS that hooked us. ;)

[Chui]

"get over it?...some of you guys are just getting plain goofy, and you wouldn't say half of this crap if it was face to face...you'd treat someone like a decent human being. I didn't complain, guy. I simply showed the marks and ask if anyone else had seen them, etc. Some decent guy, said basically, "give HK a call and see if it's normal or out of the ordinary." Information post only asking for advice. Some of you guys should re-read the original posts and not go off half-cocked continuing to put words into my mouth. I can't believe the number of posters piling on a misstatement (misstatement by a follow-up poster, nonetheless). Let's just end this thread...it's getting out of hand.
Look, I'm an engineer who has participated in many Failure Mode & Effects Analyses and I admit that while it SHOULD NOT OCCUR it's no big deal from the perspective of WHY THE PISTOL WAS ENGINEERED, TESTED AND MANUFACTURED. Unfortunately, you got one that was not properly cleaned up before it was finished. Would it bother me? No. Would I initially be aware of it? Yes. If I were in the market to purchase one I'd purchase yours and you could go get a cosmetically perfect one. I don't plan to do any more (or less) with mine than you so, yes, I'd prefer it to be cosmetically perfect but in no way diminishes the performance of the pistol. If you feel that it's a "deal breaker" then send it to them.

[reaper8154]

Wow, didn't take this thread long to go down hill. :2500000:

[cmdrdredd]

QC in most companies as large as HK is normally very strict, even for cosmetic flaws. I used to work for a major bearing manufacturer, and if there was any cosmetic flaw in a part, it was scrapped. We scrapped tons of perfectly good bearings just because they had a cosmetic mark on it.

Now, that was for bearings that were less than $10 each... and that would go in car and likely never be seen again. Based on that experience, one would think that HK would not let a gun with tooling marks leave the factory. At least not intentionally.

Just a thought.

That cosmetic flaw could be linked to a total part failure or in an accident be blamed as the culprit though. That is the difference here. They may place blame on an entire part failure on your single bearing with the flaw.

[cmdrdredd]

Yes it's a combat handgun not a collectors grade weapon.
However if they are going to sell firearms with cosmetic flaws they need to change from "No Compromise" to "Just a Few Small Compromises".

The no comprimise comes more from the fact that the HK will work in an environment that many other pistols would fail. It can mean the difference between life or death. It doesn't have much to do with the gun looking perfect.

[cmdrdredd]

Add in an expert on WARRIORS and this thread is complete! hehe.

Anyway, neither of my sigs nor my friends smith m&p has that "superior craftsmanship" on them. But we didn't pay double their prices for a more quality weapon, its was imitating WARRIORS that hooked us. ;)

Lets not get ingo the SIG's finish issues that they have been having lately, a few holster presentations later and lines form pretty badly etc. Oh and the M&P had its share of mag disconnect failures.

[custom60]

Well there seems to be some pretty strong opinions on this discussion. Why don't you have a premium member post your pics in the customer service forum and let's see what HK's position is, one way or the other? Give me the link and I'll do it.

[MaverickH1]

Well there seems to be some pretty strong opinions on this discussion. Why don't you have a premium member post your pics in the customer service forum and let's see what HK's position is, one way or the other? Give me the link and I'll do it.

Or just take it to the HKUSA forum. Even thought it'll take a while for them to get around to answering it... (they seem to only respond about twice every 3 weeks)

[Sobriquet]

The HK45, at least to my knowledge, isn't being used by ANY military unit or issued by a department. They're being purchased by private citizens and should be judged by those standards.

I agree that if this were Colt, and we were talking about M4 rifles for soldiers, cosmetics would be a non-issue. That's simply not the case here. I simply don't understand the desire to excuse HK for a defect. Most members here profess a distaste for "tacticool" and being a mall ninja. Why, then, act as if you're a procurement officer?

Guns, cars, watches, whatever. They're useful, practical things we use for specific tasks. Just because they serve a functional purpose doesn't mean they aren't also objects to be appreciated for their design. If you don't care what it looks like, fine. We do and we're paying good money for it to not be defective.

[cbrenn71]

after reading these comments again, i see the points both sides are making.

Again, I looked at my HK45, and in 2 areas, it had the circular tooling marks as well. I've had the gun for around 3 months now, and never noticed it until this thread forced me to examine mine out of curiosity. Even though it has the marks, i still feel the same way about the gun:

I KNOW it will fire under any circumstances I will ever put it through, and know that I am better off with this gun than other choices i could have made. I spent the extra money on an HK for quality and reliability, not looks.

My take on the tooling marks, is that, you shouldn't be buying an HK if you are concerned with looks as equally as you are with function. I pay the extra money knowing it is a weapon, not a show piece.

I dont want people to get the wrong idea of what i'm saying, but i think others feel the same way.

If you are one who has the tooling marks, and are unhappy with them, I say go ahead and contact HK, it's your right to do so. If you feel it is a defect. I personally don't, but it isn't up to me to decide, it's up to HK.

[hwjohn]

That cosmetic flaw could be linked to a total part failure or in an accident be blamed as the culprit though. That is the difference here. They may place blame on an entire part failure on your single bearing with the flaw.

You could apply that same argument to the HK. When I say that the blemish was cosmetic, I mean it was no more detrimental to the operation of the bearing than the tooling marks are to the operation of a firearm.

The bottom line is that fit and finish DOES count for something... even when it is purely cosmetic. Companies realize this and how it affects their reputation. Just look at how this thread has blown out of proportion. Whether or not it affects the operation isn't so much the question (or the problem). It is how the customer percieves the blemish that matters because that perception directly impacts the reputation of your company.

If you bought a brand new truck, and it had a scratch down the door from the factory, would you complain or would you not care because it doesn't affect the function?

In the end it comes down to what HK will accept for quality. If they say the tool marks are within spec, then you won't get a replacement. That isn't to say that the decision to make it within spec won't hurt their reputation with some people. Only HK can weigh that out and decide.

[cmdrdredd]

You could apply that same argument to the HK. When I say that the blemish was cosmetic, I mean it was no more detrimental to the operation of the bearing than the tooling marks are to the operation of a firearm.

The bottom line is that fit and finish DOES count for something... even when it is purely cosmetic. Companies realize this and how it affects their reputation. Just look at how this thread has blown out of proportion. Whether or not it affects the operation isn't so much the question (or the problem). It is how the customer percieves the blemish that matters because that perception directly impacts the reputation of your company.

If you bought a brand new truck, and it had a scratch down the door from the factory, would you complain or would you not care because it doesn't affect the function?


In the end it comes down to what HK will accept for quality. If they say the tool marks are within spec, then you won't get a replacement. That isn't to say that the decision to make it within spec won't hurt their reputation with some people. Only HK can weigh that out and decide.

The difference is a part (bearing) that has direct friction and movement and will cause a part to totally fail if it is not up to snuff is looked at more scrutinizingly. The DOT will come hunt you down if they find out you let it go. The blemish on a slide won't make the gun blow up.

[steelshooter]

Spare me with the Warriors bit. First of all tell me a single government agency that is buying HK 45's. Yeah. Secondly I can guarantee you that HK expects to make by far the bulk of their sales of this pistol from the civilian market. They realize the screwed up by having poor customer support for years and beefed it up because Sig, Glock and others were eating their lunch in the civilian market.

Ok.... we have a watch collector and a barber chiming in on their "perceived" QC standards for a combat handgun.

Point of clarification people. H&K handguns were designed and manufactured for WARRIORS. I find it humorous that this needed clarifying.

If you read enough threads here you will see a lot of posts of people saying H&K doesn't care about civilians sales because they are trying to fill the big government orders (hence the poor customer service etc.). The government is buying these for their WARRIORS.

Warriors want and need a gun that fires every time under all of the conditions that they may need it to fire under. Warriors see function first and tacticool last (tacticool = aesthetics).

Weekend warriors see Weekday warriors with H&K and want to imitate them... but since they only have a romantic "idea" of warriors they are disappointed when the equipment they buy does not match their "idea".

[Cut to scene of Roman times with nobleman watching a Roman Legion fight to defend the city with swords to great effect... then nobleman buying sword from Legion supplier only to complain about the "tooling marks" on it.... (Legion laughing in the background)]

Warriors these days are Marines, Navy, Army... police etc..
Noblemen these days are... everyone else.

Buy S&W.... or Sig.... use them under the condition an H&K is designed to work under and you may come to see it's "raison d'être".

Don't forget to check for tooling marks on the S&W and Sig while your at it.:D

[steelshooter]

Sig has gone downhill no doubt helped along by acquiring the president of Kimber as their new head. M&P's had a lot of teething issue but seem to have been fixed now. They don't have quite the quality feel of an HK though. It's really surprising the P30 and HK 45 have had so few issues for such a new pistol.

Lets not get ingo the SIG's finish issues that they have been having lately, a few holster presentations later and lines form pretty badly etc. Oh and the M&P had its share of mag disconnect failures.

[steelshooter]

That is true. I paid $900 for mine and I wouldn't even look at a $900 1911. But I would still defend this guys right to complain if he feels it is an issue even if I would not.

A HK45 does not even register on the scale of expensive guns. A $70,000 Perazzi is an expensive gun. It's $70,000 for a reason, you won't find any tool marks there. But for a production gun, you will get tool marks here or there. Just check the inside of your slide or the barrel. Lots of tool marks there. Look in the frame and you will still see flashing from the plastic injection process. How about the plastic next to the rails that chip away.

[MadMax2012]

Spare me with the Warriors bit. First of all tell me a single government agency that is buying HK 45's. Yeah. Secondly I can guarantee you that HK expects to make by far the bulk of their sales of this pistol from the civilian market. They realize the screwed up by having poor customer support for years and beefed it up because Sig, Glock and others were eating their lunch in the civilian market.

I'm going to go real easy on you because (if your avatar isn't just wannabeism) you are a fellow Marine.

Because you didn't indicate otherwise I'm going to assume your ignorance of the JSOC Pistol competition (if you were aware of it then your intent was less than genuine).

The HK45 was designed according to a new spec requirement for JSOC, whom wanted a new 45 caliber pistol for JSOC. JSOC recently dropped the program for lack of funds and politics (as usual). The HK45 was already going to be distributed to the civ market AFTER it filled the government orders anyway... (most observers had the HK45 running away with the competition) but in this case Christmas came early for the civ market.

I would have expected you to know this but if you did... then pretending the HK45 was designed and built for the civ market is unbecoming, devil dog.

[steelshooter]

Yeah thanks for going easy on me.
FYI I spent most of my life in the Marine Corps since the age of 17 and was discharged due to combat injuries.
You are wrong about JSOC and the HK 45. The HK45 was in design well before JSOC.
I did not say the HK 45 was designed for the civilian market, I said Hk expects to get most of their sales from the civilian market.
You need to have a conversation with Larry Vickers. He can straighten you out on what was changed for the civilian market. i won't speak for him.
Semper Fi.
I hope you are at least an 03 MOS of some sort.

I'm going to go real easy on you because (if your avatar isn't just wannabeism) you are a fellow Marine.

Because you didn't indicate otherwise I'm going to assume your ignorance of the JSOC Pistol competition (if you were aware of it then your intent was less than genuine).

The HK45 was designed according to a new spec requirement for JSOC, whom wanted a new 45 caliber pistol for JSOC. JSOC recently dropped the program for lack of funds and politics (as usual). The HK45 was already going to be distributed to the civ market AFTER it filled the government orders anyway... (most observers had the HK45 running away with the competition) but in this case Christmas came early for the civ market.

I would have expected you to know this but if you did... then pretending the HK45 was designed and built for the civ market is unbecoming, devil dog.

[Scooter]

If you think tool marks are unacceptable on a gun, I guess I need to send back my USP45 and get a new barrel.

http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/album/00000169/DSC_4992_1.JPG

I should get my plum extractor replaced while I'm at it.

In case you are wondering, part of the SN has been photochopped out.

[uscTF]

If you think tool marks are unacceptable on a gun, I guess I need to send back my USP45 and get a new barrel.

http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/album/00000169/DSC_4992_1.JPG

I should get my plum extractor replaced while I'm at it.

In case you are wondering, part of the SN has been photochopped out.

You're right, IF someone actually thought what you suggest, it would be pretty foolish. However, I don't think a single poster has taken the stance that you suggest. There are more than 25 circular tool marks on one side of my slide, within all 15 serrations (the pic shows a few in the front group of serrations). You're right, it's not even worth posting a thread to ask other HK fans for advice about it. My bad. And still, after all of this BS back and forth, I don't have one bad thing to say about HK. I know that these things happen once and a while, even to the best of the best.

[AviatorDave]

Look, I'm an engineer who has participated in many Failure Mode & Effects Analyses and I admit that while it SHOULD NOT


FMEA. Blech. When a company I worked out started implementing FMEA, everyone pronounced it "fee-muh". Drove me friggin' batty. I'd ask "crap, what's the federal emergency this time?"

But as to the tool marks topic - the trigger guards on every P7 variant I have has circular tool marks, and they all cost well over an HK45. If the slides had been milled, they would have likely had them as well, but the slide serrations were ground.

If it's on yours, I'm sure it's on plenty of others. It's a cosmetic defect that doesn't affect fit, form, nor function. Would it bother me? Maybe a little bit, but only if it was when I was buying it and could choose different ones.

Ok, now who did I buy these P7M13s from? I think you owe me a refinish.

[MaverickH1]

You're right, IF someone actually thought what you suggest, it would be pretty foolish. However, I don't think a single poster has taken the stance that you suggest. There are more than 25 circular tool marks on one side of my slide, within all 15 serrations (the pic shows a few in the front group of serrations). You're right, it's not even worth posting a thread to ask other HK fans for advice about it. My bad. And still, after all of this BS back and forth, I don't have one bad thing to say about HK. I know that these things happen once and a while, even to the best of the best.

You should note that he didn't direct that statement directly at you.

But if you asked me, I'd say you do think it's unacceptable. Hence the reason you were going to contact HK CS to get them "to make things right". Calling anyone to fix something means that it's unacceptable to you. And didn't you say you were going to sell the gun at a loss just to get one that didn't have the milling marks?

Regardless, y'all have fun in this here discussion.

[Chui]

FMEA. Blech. When a company I worked out started implementing FMEA, everyone pronounced it "fee-muh". Drove me friggin' batty. I'd ask "crap, what's the federal emergency this time?"

But as to the tool marks topic - the trigger guards on every P7 variant I have has circular tool marks, and they all cost well over an HK45. If the slides had been milled, they would have likely had them as well, but the slide serrations were ground.

If it's on yours, I'm sure it's on plenty of others. It's a cosmetic defect that doesn't affect fit, form, nor function. Would it bother me? Maybe a little bit, but only if it was when I was buying it and could choose different ones.

Ok, now who did I buy these P7M13s from? I think you owe me a refinish.
Ask Honda and Toyota about FMEAs...

You don't have to enjoy it you just have to do it. And do it well. And they do.

[AviatorDave]

Ask Honda and Toyota about FMEAs...

You don't have to enjoy it you just have to do it. And do it well. And they do.

Oh, don't get me wrong - it was a valuable tool. It was just that the fools that ran the engineering department didn't understand the purpose, and took everything to the nth degree. They weren't engineers, machinists, not even mechanically inclined. They didn't understand engineering nor manufacturing whatsoever, just high-school graduates, at least I think they graduated highschool, that had been at the company for 30 years - perfect examples of the Peter principle.

We had sessions with people that had absolutely zero knowledge about manufacturing or engineering spitting out "ideas" of why something could have failed, and trying to prevent the unpreventable - like a machine tool breaking and scrapping a part.

For 6 months, my idiot boss had me check EVERYTHING THAT PLUGGED INTO A WALL for Y2K compliance at 3 different plants, which we then would run encorporate into FMEA sessions. I kept telling him "nothing is going to happen, and this is a waste of time." Boy was I wrong - we had one report printout that started dating everything 1/1/19100 instead of 1/1/2000.

But I digress...

[Scooter]

I do FMEA too. But when stuff I design fails, things tend to fall out of the sky.

Here's another example of shoddy craftsmanship. Check out the piss poor grind marks from cleaning up the MIM part.

http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/album//00000169/DSC_5005.JPG

[AviatorDave]

I do FMEA too. But when stuff I design fails, things tend to fall out of the sky.

Here's another example of shoddy craftsmanship. Check out the piss poor grind marks from cleaning up the MIM part.



I'm at the total opposite extreme now - the company owner is a salesman, not a manufacturing guy. As such, if a customer calls up and orders a unit of which we have only a couple of untested prototypes, he'll sell the damn things and they box them and ship them. Oh yeah, they come back sometimes. But he'll never learn, he's done it over and over. We don't even have a QC department.

I'm sure glad we don't make airplanes, cars, or guns.

[MaverickH1]

I'm at the total opposite extreme now - the company owner is a salesman, not a manufacturing guy. As such, if a customer calls up and orders a unit of which we have only a couple of untested prototypes, he'll sell the damn things and they box them and ship them. Oh yeah, they come back sometimes. But he'll never learn, he's done it over and over. We don't even have a QC department.

I'm sure glad we don't make airplanes, cars, or guns.

Yikes. Cross your fingers in my direction, in hopes that I don't have to deal with the same thing someday.

[MadMax2012]

Yeah thanks for going easy on me.
FYI I spent most of my life in the Marine Corps since the age of 17 and was discharged due to combat injuries.
You are wrong about JSOC and the HK 45. The HK45 was in design well before JSOC.
I did not say the HK 45 was designed for the civilian market, I said Hk expects to get most of their sales from the civilian market.
You need to have a conversation with Larry Vickers. He can straighten you out on what was changed for the civilian market. i won't speak for him.
Semper Fi.
I hope you are at least an 03 MOS of some sort.

"FYI I spent most of my life in the Marine Corps since the age of 17 and was discharged due to combat injuries."

Your breakin my heart... and this statement does not give you ANY more credibility (as was your intent by mentioning it) on this subject. When we bring up "combat injuries" in a thread I expect to hear more from you. (Sorry politically correct weenies... when in an argument you are losing... bringing up that you are an injured veteran, out of context ,will not get you any points with me... I already know plenty)

"You are wrong about JSOC and the HK 45. The HK45 was in design well before JSOC.
I did not say the HK 45 was designed for the civilian market, I said Hk expects to get most of their sales from the civilian market."

Ok... which is it? I'm wrong and the HK45 was not designed for JSOC (hence designed for the civ market)... or it was not designd for the civ market? (if you weren't try to dance so much it wouldn't LOOK like your trying to dance so much)

You expect the HK45 to get most of its sales from the civ market???? Yeah... after JSOC dropped it...and I expect gas prices to go up in the future. :rolleyes:

"You need to have a conversation with Larry Vickers. He can straighten you out on what was changed for the civilian market. i won't speak for him."

This statement would give anyone, including me, the impression you have spoken with Larry Vickers (at more than a "I saw him and shook his hand at a gun show" level) and possibly even that you are a good friend. If this is true I think you should just blurt it out.... heck... you blurted out something even less relevant in your "combat injuries".

"I hope you are at least an 03 MOS of some sort."
(I was an 03... but WHAT THE $#@% DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THIS?)

Reverend Wright tried something similar yesterday. Besides saying "I was in the Marines and Dick Cheney wasn't" as a diversion to the subject of his sermon ... he also said (sic)"If you didn't see my full sermon then any questions you have on them are nullified".

Now that I've said my mind... no hard feelings (Really)... but keep it real my friend because I'm tired of those who try to "spin" everything... even formers.

Semper Fi

[uscTF]

You should note that he didn't direct that statement directly at you.

But if you asked me, I'd say you do think it's unacceptable. Hence the reason you were going to contact HK CS to get them "to make things right". Calling anyone to fix something means that it's unacceptable to you. And didn't you say you were going to sell the gun at a loss just to get one that didn't have the milling marks?

Regardless, y'all have fun in this here discussion.

What? Now select phrases of posts are being hand picked and placed into follow-up a follow-up poster's own sentences to make new inferences, or stronger inferences than the original post?! Come on, give it up. I never once used the word "unacceptable." Since you apparently have not read, or did not retain the information in, the original three or four posts in the thread...

The first post was to show the board the marks and ask if anyone else had seen them on theirs. I continued that if I would probably just sell it and get one that did not have marks, knowing full well, like everyone else here, that a pretty pistol works just as well as a pistols with the marks described. The two immediate follow-ups suggested to give HK (Travis) a call and get his opinion. One suggested that "They'll make this kind of problem right." I responded by saying, that they were right and that there was no reason for me to immediately trade it in for a loss until I call HK to chat with them about it..."I'll call Travis and see what can be done. This has to be an anomoly. I've never had a bad experience with HK products. I'm sure that they will make things right (the first time I used the phrase, or even implied such a thing, as a polite way to acknowledge the follow-up poster's suggestion...using his phrase). I believe we all know that making a problem right doesn't always mean replacing a product for free, or refinishing, etc. "Making a problem right," in this case could simply be Travis telling me that, "hey, everything is o.k., the marks are within tolerance and we stand behind the product in that condition." In my mind, after having heard that from an HK rep, not you, I'd feel o.k. about things...and that would be HK "making things right." Had the follow-up poster not suggested calling HK, I never would have done it, and I would have immediately traded for a replacement as I had originally intended. After I get a chance to speak with Travis...three things may happen - I may keep it as is, HK may do something, or I may still sell it. None of the three choices are going to be monumental.

[Chui]

Oh, don't get me wrong - it was a valuable tool. It was just that the fools that ran the engineering department didn't understand the purpose, and took everything to the nth degree. They weren't engineers, machinists, not even mechanically inclined. They didn't understand engineering nor manufacturing whatsoever, just high-school graduates, at least I think they graduated highschool, that had been at the company for 30 years - perfect examples of the Peter principle.

We had sessions with people that had absolutely zero knowledge about manufacturing or engineering spitting out "ideas" of why something could have failed, and trying to prevent the unpreventable - like a machine tool breaking and scrapping a part.

For 6 months, my idiot boss had me check EVERYTHING THAT PLUGGED INTO A WALL for Y2K compliance at 3 different plants, which we then would run encorporate into FMEA sessions. I kept telling him "nothing is going to happen, and this is a waste of time." Boy was I wrong - we had one report printout that started dating everything 1/1/19100 instead of 1/1/2000.

But I digress...
Gotcha! We're on the same wavelength!! I worked at Ford Motor Company and when they forced us to learn it I rejected it (I was in R&D and initially felt it didn't apply; same with Green Belt and Black Belt Training). I didn't like it because I saw what I thought was incompetents leading the charge for all reasons except what I thought were the proper ones. Eventually, I learned it to "slow the hemorrhage". I now use the tools properly and I love them though there is still some "single tool in tool box"/"Peter Principle" individuals out there.

Back to the H&K:

Yes, I'd prefer it did not have ANY imperfections but it's not a semi-custom or custom pistol. There. It hurts for me to type this because I'm anal about Engineering, but at the end of the day they are just tools (at least for me). If the OP perceives things differently I understand.

Not to use this as a means of denying your pain/concern but the Les baer Thunder Ranch Special is a PHENOMENAL 1911 but the logo/roll marks SUCK majoryly. Does it detract from the pistol? To me, YES. Does it detract from it's PERFORMANCE? Hell, I'm looking at the front sight, so NO.

A custom Colt 70 Series would suit you quite nicely (and me, too!) where you can have a SINGLE person modify and finish the weapon.

IN SUMMARY, the tooling marks SHOULD have been removed. They would not have used that pistol for a poster would they? Of course, not. QC should have picked it up; alas, they did not.

To me it's a tool. It would/will be holstered and be rolled in the grass, dirt, mud and snow. If HK won't cover you send me an e-mail as I'd purchase it from you if the price is somewhere near right.

Good luck with your claim and for the record I was not trying to belittle your concerns as some here are wont to do. Just keep in mind that weapons, like all machines, are different things to different people.

[drt]

Lets not get ingo the SIG's finish issues that they have been having lately, a few holster presentations later and lines form pretty badly etc. Oh and the M&P had its share of mag disconnect failures.

I was responding to another post about checking sigs and smiths for tool marks. My sigs are older anyway, so I cant personally speak for their current quality other than a few that I've fondled at gun shops. Which didn't have the crappy tool marks the OP has. I'll have to take your word for what their newer guns look like after holstering.

[Scooter]

IN SUMMARY, the tooling marks SHOULD have been removed. They would not have used that pistol for a poster would they? Of course, not. QC should have picked it up; alas, they did not.

Let's be realistic, if they specified a 8 microinches surface finish, there wouldn't be any tool marks at all. But you just drove the price sky high. Typical standard practice for surface finish is 125 microinches. You will end up with some tool marks at that level.

[Chui]

Let's be realistic, if they specified a 8 microinches surface finish, there wouldn't be any tool marks at all. But you just drove the price sky high. Typical standard practice for surface finish is 125 microinches. You will end up with some tool marks at that level.

So what is their microfinish standard? What's the Severity, Occurence and Detection of that process at HK??? SOME thing did not work 100% as intended during the process.

Please try not to pick a part the post as you lose the entire meaning I was trying to convey. I'm aware of the costs associated with polishing and micropolishing as well as the costs associated with checking, rechecking and, more important, Human Handling Costs (polishing and fitting) - I am a hardcore devotee of the ubiquitous 1911, after all. And Skilled Trades and Labor aint cheap and the US "Dollar" doesn't go very far nowadays, either.

[cmdrdredd]

I was responding to another post about checking sigs and smiths for tool marks. My sigs are older anyway, so I cant personally speak for their current quality other than a few that I've fondled at gun shops. Which didn't have the crappy tool marks the OP has. I'll have to take your word for what their newer guns look like after holstering.

There's a bunch of threads in the sig forums about them. You can find them easy if you do a quick search. It seems to be only with the more recent offerings that are made in NH and not ones made in Germany for whatever reason.

[ARKAY.357]

What? Now select phrases of posts are being hand picked and placed into follow-up a follow-up poster's own sentences to make new inferences, or stronger inferences than the original post?! Come on, give it up. I never once used the word "unacceptable." Since you apparently have not read, or did not retain the information in, the original three or four posts in the thread...

The first post was to show the board the marks and ask if anyone else had seen them on theirs. I continued that if I would probably just sell it and get one that did not have marks, knowing full well, like everyone else here, that a pretty pistol works just as well as a pistols with the marks described. The two immediate follow-ups suggested to give HK (Travis) a call and get his opinion. One suggested that "They'll make this kind of problem right." I responded by saying, that they were right and that there was no reason for me to immediately trade it in for a loss until I call HK to chat with them about it..."I'll call Travis and see what can be done. This has to be an anomoly. I've never had a bad experience with HK products. I'm sure that they will make things right (the first time I used the phrase, or even implied such a thing, as a polite way to acknowledge the follow-up poster's suggestion...using his phrase). I believe we all know that making a problem right doesn't always mean replacing a product for free, or refinishing, etc. "Making a problem right," in this case could simply be Travis telling me that, "hey, everything is o.k., the marks are within tolerance and we stand behind the product in that condition." In my mind, after having heard that from an HK rep, not you, I'd feel o.k. about things...and that would be HK "making things right." Had the follow-up poster not suggested calling HK, I never would have done it, and I would have immediately traded for a replacement as I had originally intended. After I get a chance to speak with Travis...three things may happen - I may keep it as is, HK may do something, or I may still sell it. None of the three choices are going to be monumental.

Well said; and BTW... good luck with that.

ARKAY

[Bentonville]

uscTF, you did the right thing in posting and in calling HK. CS is an investment of the company and security for the future. If I get a new Ford and the clear coat starts peeling on the top in a small spot after six months of ownership, I am gonna take it back and do all I can to get it fixed. Not all HKs have the tooling marks. I have several HK pistols and none have the milling marks that yours displays. Why accept one that does if it's not a normal thing. If Travis says no way and they won't make you satisfied, then go with your first plan. I appreciate your postings here on the boards and don't be a stranger.