HK45 with Federal HST self-defense rounds

[Sobriquet]

Can any of the law enforcement members please give some advice on Federal HST rounds? I'm about to order some to keep in my home defense HK45 after finally finding some in stock. They only have the +P variant, though. How much more recoil is the +P ammo going to have? I hope the ammo sits in the mag until it gets so old I have to replace it, but should I ever need it, I'd rather not be surprised by more kick than I'm used to. I'll buy enough to run a box through the gun to make sure it feeds. Anyone have any trouble with Federal HST rounds feeding through their HK?

Is there something else I should be considering before buying? Do you have any advice regarding 230 grain bullets versus 185 grain? One of my major considerations is that I live in an urban condo building and have neighbors and common areas on the other side of my walls. I need something that'll put down a bad guy without going through a wall and hurting a neighbor.

I searched and read through some of the older threads on self-defense ammo and saw some recommendations for Speer, too, but the HST round seems the most current. I've heard about Federal Bonded, but they advertise those as having superior barrier penetration - something I want to avoid.

Thanks for the help.

[cmdrdredd]

Can any of the law enforcement members please give some advice on Federal HST rounds? I'm about to order some to keep in my home defense HK45 after finally finding some in stock. They only have the +P variant, though. How much more recoil is the +P ammo going to have? I hope the ammo sits in the mag until it gets so old I have to replace it, but should I ever need it, I'd rather not be surprised by more kick than I'm used to. I'll buy enough to run a box through the gun to make sure it feeds. Anyone have any trouble with Federal HST rounds feeding through their HK?

Is there something else I should be considering before buying? Do you have any advice regarding 230 grain bullets versus 185 grain? One of my major considerations is that I live in an urban condo building and have neighbors and common areas on the other side of my walls. I need something that'll put down a bad guy without going through a wall and hurting a neighbor.

I searched and read through some of the older threads on self-defense ammo and saw some recommendations for Speer, too, but the HST round seems the most current. I've heard about Federal Bonded, but they advertise those as having superior barrier penetration - something I want to avoid.

Thanks for the help.

I run Federal Tactical HST 230gr +P in my HK45 with no issues. The recoil is more than your typical 230gr WWB target ammo, but nothing unforgiving. When it comes to penetration I don't worry about it. If for some reason the bullet exits the BG it will have very little velocity and energy left after expansion. Not enough to penetrate through a wall.

[NonConformist]

I have always run Fed Hydra Shok and now their HST. no complaints though mine arent ever +p

[08G37S]

I run the Tactical HST +P also in my HK45 and its been flawless. No issues and I noticed just a small difference in the recoil. The round also looks much nicer than the HydraShock.

[gman1868]

An alternative (my carry ammo of choice) Corbon DPX. It works good :)

[harrydog]

Where are you ordering from?
Ammunition to go has the non +P version in stock. Or at least the website says they do. They have the best prices that I've found and they're great to deal with.
I've put a couple hundred rounds of it through my HK45, with no problems of course. I don't think the +P version is necessary but if that's what you want to use, I'm sure the recoil isn't too bad in a pistol like the HK.

[OfcrJosh462]

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h136/ghstface38/Light%20Box/DSC01261.jpg

My department issues Federal HST Tactical in .40 caliber. I haven't used it on anyone (or anything) yet, but the articles I read show that it performs very well.

[AwaySooner]

I live in townhome as well. I bought Federal EFMJ 124gr 9mm and 230gr 0.45ACP. They are the only site I found that has higher grain +p EFMJ. I read that the expansion is very reliable, this is very important for me not to over-penetrate. Obviously have to increase my skill to hit the target in stressful situation.

[Sobriquet]

Josh, is it the +P round? Is +P ammo really necessary with such an efficiently expanding round? If it isn't necessary, I'd rather get standard pressure for reduced recoil for a quicker follow-up shot. That may mean waiting a while before I can find someone who has the regular HST in stock. This stuff is as hard to find as the HK45 mags.

Is there a marking on the ammo box to let me know when it was produced? I don't want to buy ammo that's been sitting in a warehouse for 4 years or something.

Thanks to all who responded.

EDIT: Thanks for the lead, Harrydog. Their price is better than what I'd found.

[BytorJr]

Since both ATK owns both Federal and Speer, I think the HST is more like a Gold Dot but with longer serrations going down the length of the bullet. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why HST (LE) is cheaper than Gold Dot (LE). I thought HST was a new bullet design. But then, I'm applying logic to this crazy economy. I'm not complaining though, if better technology can be had for cheaper.

[denslen]

HST was designed to be a bit more cost effective for some departements. It's good stuff. I like the 147 gr in 9mm and run the 230 gr standard in the HK45. I don't think the recoil is that much more in the +p HST i've shot-I don't think it is necessary in 45, but if that is all they have the I wouldn't worry about it.
I've gotten it before at streichers and ammunitiontogo
ammunitiontogo has the standard velocity in stock for $23 a box/50.

[cmdrdredd]

Where are you ordering from?
Ammunition to go has the non +P version in stock. Or at least the website says they do. They have the best prices that I've found and they're great to deal with.
I've put a couple hundred rounds of it through my HK45, with no problems of course. I don't think the +P version is necessary but if that's what you want to use, I'm sure the recoil isn't too bad in a pistol like the HK.

Ammuniton To Go has the +p also just FYI. The +p isn't really loaded very hot from federal. Just so you know, Federal overstates the pressure ratings. They claim +p but other +P ammo is much hotter.

It's safe

[cmdrdredd]

Since both ATK owns both Federal and Speer, I think the HST is more like a Gold Dot but with longer serrations going down the length of the bullet. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why HST (LE) is cheaper than Gold Dot (LE). I thought HST was a new bullet design. But then, I'm applying logic to this crazy economy. I'm not complaining though, if better technology can be had for cheaper.

Same company but different bullets. Look at the following pictures and you can see the different expansion properties. Also, in some tests the HST round expanded over 2x the original bullet diameter (up to 1" with a 230gr .45 round). The short version on the differences is, the Speer would be higher velocity, but the HST would have higher expansion depending on caliber and whatnot.

Speer Gold Dot
http://www.firearmsid.com/Bullets/images/firearmimages%20015.jpg

Federal HST
http://www.prestoimages.net/store/graphics02/1926_dept49209.jpg

[cmdrdredd]

Denslen do you use the +p 147gr 9mm HST? I notice they offer that.

[KurtP2k]

Ive posted my opinions on federal rounds a few times if you want to search it.....In short, my department dropped them for a number of reasons; not limited to poor jacket integrity and poor quality control.

[harrydog]

Ammuniton To Go has the +p also just FYI. The +p isn't really loaded very hot from federal. Just so you know, Federal overstates the pressure ratings. They claim +p but other +P ammo is much hotter.

It's safe
I know they have both but the original post mentioned using +P because the place he was ordering from didn't have the standard pressure stuff.
I wouldn't hesitate to use +P if that's all I could find, but I don't think it's necessary in .45 ACP and the standard pressure loads are just a bit easier for follow up shots, at least for me.

[carboncycles]

A couple of comments. 1) You should run at least several boxes of the stuff you plan to carry through the gun to make sure it performs flawlessly 2) you also become aware of the properties of the round you plan to carry 3) as long as it has been stored properly, the amount of time it sits around shouldn't be a big deal.

[cmdrdredd]

I know they have both but the original post mentioned using +P because the place he was ordering from didn't have the standard pressure stuff.
I wouldn't hesitate to use +P if that's all I could find, but I don't think it's necessary in .45 ACP and the standard pressure loads are just a bit easier for follow up shots, at least for me.

No Doubt, I am going to try the standard pressure stuff next time to see how I like it compared to the +p. I use the 124gr +p HST right now in my P30 and am wondering if I should move to the 147gr version. It's like splitting hairs though I'd think as every search I did came up with similar results from each.

[cmdrdredd]

Ive posted my opinions on federal rounds a few times if you want to search it.....In short, my department dropped them for a number of reasons; not limited to poor jacket integrity and poor quality control.

Was that in relevance to the HST or the older hydrashock design?

[denslen]

The 147 gr HST I have are not +P. Box states 1000fps from muzzle and 325 ft lbs. I like them-they are inexpensive for a quality carry round and fairly easy to obtain online. I have not chrono'd them but they have always run in my HK's and Sigs. Before that I carried 147 gr speer gold dots. either would be fine (probably not that much difference when it's all said and done) but the HST were cheaper, so I got them.
cheers
Derek

[cmdrdredd]

The 147 gr HST I have are not +P. Box states 1000fps from muzzle and 325 ft lbs. I like them-they are inexpensive for a quality carry round and fairly easy to obtain online. I have not chrono'd them but they have always run in my HK's and Sigs. Before that I carried 147 gr speer gold dots. either would be fine (probably not that much difference when it's all said and done) but the HST were cheaper, so I got them.
cheers
Derek

The only problem I have, well not problem...is I am running them through a P30. Would a compact gun with a shorter barrel be able to push a heavier bullet such as 147gr to the velocity necessary for proper expansion? That's why I used 124gr +p, but I do like the idea of a heavier bullet.

[harrydog]

No Doubt, I am going to try the standard pressure stuff next time to see how I like it compared to the +p. I use the 124gr +p HST right now in my P30 and am wondering if I should move to the 147gr version. It's like splitting hairs though I'd think as every search I did came up with similar results from each.
A lot of people like the slower, heavier 147gr bullet. There are even some who use it in the Rohrbaugh R9 which has only a 2.9" barrel. I don't know if they've done any ballistics testing though. There are others who like the fast 115gr bullets. I've always used 124gr in 9mm which splits the difference between speed and weight but I could be convinced to use something else if I saw the data to back it up.

[steelshooter]

I use 230 grain Gold Dot's. It is the round I have seen the least controversy about. I do not think +P is necessary and it gives you a different point of aim, point of impact, from a 230 grain training round like WWB. Another highly regarded round is Winchester Ranger T which is fairly new and hard to find. I also like Black Hills 230 grain although they now use a Hornady bullet instead of Gold Dot. I like my .45 JHP's out of a full size barrel to be big and slow moving to crunch through bone, fat, etc to get to vital organs. On the other hand I carry mostly 9mm and use Gold Dot 124gr +P because I think that is the best compromise to get an effective 9mm round. Don't go by pictures of nice clean gelatin expansion etc. I've never been attacked by a block of gelatin and don't expect to be. Also gelatin is a consistent medium and the human body is the farthest thing from that.

[Huey]

A different aim and impact point?

Forgive me, but I would think the distances at which you would use this in a defensive engagement would be too close for any perceptible change in impact point.

[steelshooter]

Thats true on average. I don't plan for average.

[cmdrdredd]

A TON of what people mention here is preference or heresay. What I mean is, probably less than 1% of the posters will have first hand experience actually using these rounds against a person.

I know I've shot up lots of paper myself :)

I think I'm going to try the 147gr HST through my P30 and grab a couple boxes of 230gr HST .45 standard pressure to run through my HK45 and compare to the +p I use now. If it feeds reliably through my P30 which it should, and my HK45 seems easier to handle with the standard pressure rounds I'll switch on both. I like a heavier bullet myself and 147gr vs 124gr is a pretty big difference. I did notice that most tests showed 147gr bullets to have better penetration with slightly less expansion in most tests. The only exception I found was shooting through glass where the 124gr penetrated further, I don't plan to ever shoot through a car window though.

[BytorJr]

cmdrdredd,

Thanks for the pic. I'd yet to see a comparison despite research on the net.

[steelshooter]

Well they don't need to if they are informed of the subject. Many rounds, especially Gold Dots, have been used extensively in shootings and there are lots of studies that have been done of their effectiveness. Google is your friend. Some of these studies are from Law Enforcement agencies such as the FBI.

Some people believe that 147gr 9mm penetrates too well and this is a danger to bystanders. For this reason 147gr fell out of favor for some time. it seems to be making a comeback now as newer hollowpoints designs have been said to reduce the issue of overpenetration. I prefer to split the difference and go with 124gr +P myself but to each his own.

The same bullet will do different things depending on various circumstances and where it hits a person. Having shot someone does not make you an expert on what that round will do in every situation. I speak from experience with rifle and pistol.

A TON of what people mention here is preference or heresay. What I mean is, probably less than 1% of the posters will have first hand experience actually using these rounds against a person.

I know I've shot up lots of paper myself :)

I think I'm going to try the 147gr HST through my P30 and grab a couple boxes of 230gr HST .45 standard pressure to run through my HK45 and compare to the +p I use now. If it feeds reliably through my P30 which it should, and my HK45 seems easier to handle with the standard pressure rounds I'll switch on both. I like a heavier bullet myself and 147gr vs 124gr is a pretty big difference. I did notice that most tests showed 147gr bullets to have better penetration with slightly less expansion in most tests. The only exception I found was shooting through glass where the 124gr penetrated further, I don't plan to ever shoot through a car window though.

[AwaySooner]

Here's an article about EFMJ. I use 124gr +p for 9mm and 230gr +p for 0.45. Hope I never have to find out how good it works, it does make a very nice round hole on paper without tearing.

http://www.ammoman.com/40_EP_DESC.htm

[Volodymyr]

I got one magazine + 1 in the chamber of 114gr Hydra Shoks, and carry a magazine of 10 FMJ rounds. I figure I need more than 14 rounds of ammunition, over penetration will no longer be a concern. :D

[steelshooter]

The article on ammoman is 8 years old and many new developments and additional shooting experiences have occurred since then. Not everyone is enamored of EFMJ. Some say it has a reputation for overexpanding so that the petals fold back to much and bullet itself comes apart. Don't think they all look like the picture posted earlier or any JHP for that matter. Those kind of perfect expansion pictures are meaningless to the point of being misleading. It is also a long bullet so less power and less velocity. I haven't used it, I don't know it for a fact, but this information is out there. If I was going to use trendy ammunition I would look at the Corbon 185gr DPX +P using Barnes bullets. A very interesting round. But I'm conservative so I stick with 230gr Gold Dots which have a solid reputation in many police shootings. I would also mention that when it comes to carry ammunition that I may need to save mine or my familiys life the cost of the ammo is dead last in my considerations.

[AwaySooner]

Steel, thanks for the information. I also have Speer Gold Dot in 0.45 as well as Corbon PowRBall. What do you think of the PowRBall?

[Sobriquet]

What do you guys make of these tests?

http://www.le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

They seem to indicate HST is very effective. Of course they're on the manufacturer's site, so I guess it should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Sobriquet]

Hijacked from a thread on another site - unknown reliability:

[Edit: These are .40 S&W rounds]

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o306/JxMxFxPx/40wetpack001.jpg

[harrydog]

What do you guys make of these tests?

http://www.le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

They seem to indicate HST is very effective. Of course they're on the manufacturer's site, so I guess it should be taken with a grain of salt.
Everything I've seen has been very positive regarding the HST. It's a newer design than most of the others and it seems they got it right.

[steelshooter]

I don't really have an opinion on it. I can tell you I have read positive statements but I have not seen it described in studies probably because it's not a widely used round like gold dots, hydra-shoks, or golden sabers that are issued to LEO's. I believe a primary reason for it's design is to feed easily in 1911's that don't care for wide mouthed hollowpoints. Plus it has a cool name. ;-)

Steel, thanks for the information. I also have Speer Gold Dot in 0.45 as well as Corbon PowRBall. What do you think of the PowRBall?

[steelshooter]

Interesting to read and tells you about various barrier penetration but next to nothing about the human body. Gelatin is only an indication of how a given round might perform in a human body. But ammo manufacturers love gelatin because it makes an easy to understand and dramatic picture of their wares. The best studies combine gelatin and morgue tests. People are absolutely in love with making this out to be much simpler than it is by shooting their rounds through water jugs, phone books, and wet newspaper to get nice even expansion. This web site has quite a few good articles worth consideration.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm


What do you guys make of these tests?

http://www.le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

They seem to indicate HST is very effective. Of course they're on the manufacturer's site, so I guess it should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Hector45]

cmdrdredd,

Thanks for the pic. I'd yet to see a comparison despite research on the net.

Check out the link, he compared several self defense rounds in 9mm, w/ lots of pics.
http://frag.110mb.com/

[steelshooter]

Interesting and fun to read how rounds acted in water jugs but I wouldn't make any ammo decisions on it. On the other hand he likes Gold Dots alot and they are proven many times over in police shootings. Note the authors disclaimer;

"Disclaimer
This is by no means a "scientific" test nor is presumed to be so. You may read this report, enjoy looking at the pictures and take my observations in any way you like. I by no measure force my opinion on any one. This site is informative and has been put up for the simple reason of sharing with the community."

Here's a really good article summarizing a lot of issues and studies in wound factors and different rounds.

http://ammo.ar15.com/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

[Hector45]

Yup, nothing scientific but interesting none the less.

[Hector45]

Here's a really good article summarizing a lot of issues and studies in wound factors and different rounds.

http://ammo.ar15.com/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

Thanks for the link, very interesting read, makes me glad I made the change from .45 185gr +p to the standard 230 gr load.

[Sobriquet]

Good link, Steelshooter. I find something curious, though. The author specifically discounts the increased effectiveness of +P ammunition, yet only lists the +P variant of the 230gr .45acp Federal HST round. What gives?

[AwaySooner]

I think what the article say is if you have short barrel < 4", +P would help with velocity, but if it's longer barrel >4", skip the +P.

[steelshooter]

Here's a good review of 147gr JHP's.

http://www.gunreports.com/special_reports/ammo/9MM-Hollowpoint-Ammunition192-1.html?ET=gunreports:e153:133817a:&st=email

[cmdrdredd]

Well they don't need to if they are informed of the subject. Many rounds, especially Gold Dots, have been used extensively in shootings and there are lots of studies that have been done of their effectiveness. Google is your friend. Some of these studies are from Law Enforcement agencies such as the FBI.

Some people believe that 147gr 9mm penetrates too well and this is a danger to bystanders. For this reason 147gr fell out of favor for some time. it seems to be making a comeback now as newer hollowpoints designs have been said to reduce the issue of overpenetration. I prefer to split the difference and go with 124gr +P myself but to each his own.

The same bullet will do different things depending on various circumstances and where it hits a person. Having shot someone does not make you an expert on what that round will do in every situation. I speak from experience with rifle and pistol.

if a 147gr 9mm will penetrate too far, what about a 230gr .45? I wouldn't worry with either.

FWIW: i found a small list of FBI approved carry loads and the 147gr HST made the list while the 124gr did not.

[cmdrdredd]

What do you guys make of these tests?

http://www.le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

They seem to indicate HST is very effective. Of course they're on the manufacturer's site, so I guess it should be taken with a grain of salt.

It was just a sponsored test. ATK provided some HST and Gold Dot ammo to compare to whatever ammo the agency was currently using and also test using the agency's standard issue firearm. It was done using all the FBI standards. It was basically a way for ATK to sell some agencies on their lines.

[cmdrdredd]

Interesting to read and tells you about various barrier penetration but next to nothing about the human body. Gelatin is only an indication of how a given round might perform in a human body. But ammo manufacturers love gelatin because it makes an easy to understand and dramatic picture of their wares. The best studies combine gelatin and morgue tests. People are absolutely in love with making this out to be much simpler than it is by shooting their rounds through water jugs, phone books, and wet newspaper to get nice even expansion. This web site has quite a few good articles worth consideration.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

Well, unless you are willing to stand there and let someone fire various ammo at you for testing, gelatin is the best we have :-)

[steelshooter]

I can only assume that you have not been reading this thread and jumped ahead to make this statement. As I said earlier, many studies have been conducted using bodies from police shootings. Quite a few of these rounds have killed a lot of people so there is plenty to work with. I think the best studies combine information from gelatin and morgue studies.

BTW here is a anecdotal observation report for someone who works in a morgue. It's not a scientific study but is fascinating reading anyway.

Seriously this is really interesting.

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20mor gue.htm

[steelshooter]

Here is a summary of the various studies and theories;
Fackler is known for using gelatin.

Marshall and Sanow used data gathered from police shootings.

Dr. Bruce Ragsdale at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology embedded pig hearts in gelatin.

The FBI study is well known and can also be found on the internet.

Amazon has a number of books on Forensics and wound ballistics.

All of these can be found on the Internet. There are many sub-studies that combine these different techniques and each has it's own adherents. I agre with Marshal and Sanow that the "jello junkies" who only rely on gelatin are way off as it does not remotely resemble the human body and the different layers of skin, fat, fluid, bone and various densities of organs encountered.

[steelshooter]

Sure it was. Fun stuff. The FBI standards never made much sense to me. They do gelatin, gelatin in four layers of denim, and various materials. Well the materials make sense if you want to know about barrier penetration but thats all.
More reading including the FBI stuff.

Wound ballistics related articles:

Patrick, Urey W.:"Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness." U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, 1989.

Roberts, Gary K.; Wolberg, Eugene J.: "Book Review, Handgun Stopping Power: The Definitive Study." Association of Firearm and Toolmark Examiners Journal, 24(4); 383-387: 1992.

Fackler, Martin L., MD.: "Book Review, Street Stoppers: The Latest Handgun Stopping Power Street Results." Wound Ballistics Review, 3(1); 26-31: 1997.

MacPherson, Duncan: "Sanow Strikes (Out) Again." Wound Ballistics Review, 3(1): 32-35; 1997.

van Maanen, Maarten: "Discrepancies in the Marshall & Sanow 'Data Base': An Evaluation Over Time." Wound Ballistics Review, 4(2); 9-13: Fall, 1999.

Fackler, Martin L., MD.: "Undeniable Evidence." Wound Ballistics Review, 4(2); 14-15: Fall, 1999.

MacPherson, Duncan: "The Marshall & Sanow 'Data' - Statistical Analysis Tells the Ugly Story." Wound Ballistics Review, 4(2); 16-21: Fall, 1999.

Dodson, Shawn: "Reality of the Street? A Practical Analysis of Offender Gunshot Wound Reaction for Law Enforcement." Tactical Briefs, 4(2); April 2001

It was just a sponsored test. ATK provided some HST and Gold Dot ammo to compare to whatever ammo the agency was currently using and also test using the agency's standard issue firearm. It was done using all the FBI standards. It was basically a way for ATK to sell some agencies on their lines.

[steelshooter]

Read what I said. Also I don't think much of the FBI protocols.

"Some people believe that 147gr 9mm penetrates too well and this is a danger to bystanders. For this reason 147gr fell out of favor for some time. it seems to be making a comeback now as newer hollowpoints designs have been said to reduce the issue of overpenetration. I prefer to split the difference and go with 124gr +P myself but to each his own."

if a 147gr 9mm will penetrate too far, what about a 230gr .45? I wouldn't worry with either.

FWIW: i found a small list of FBI approved carry loads and the 147gr HST made the list while the 124gr did not.

[cmdrdredd]

Read what I said. Also I don't think much of the FBI protocols.

"Some people believe that 147gr 9mm penetrates too well and this is a danger to bystanders. For this reason 147gr fell out of favor for some time. it seems to be making a comeback now as newer hollowpoints designs have been said to reduce the issue of overpenetration. I prefer to split the difference and go with 124gr +P myself but to each his own."

The FBI probably does more testing than any other law enforcement agency in the US. I would think that when their teas say that ballistic gelatin approximates human tissue as close as possible without shooting an actual person, that's good enough for me. I'm not in the business of second guessing everything they say and do.

With any new bullet design you have people who say "it's untested" "Gelatin is not the same as actual street performance" "gelatin is too perfect and the human body isn't". Point is, you have to test it somehow and you can't stand out there and shoot people to test ammo. When a design is new, as the HSt is there isn't actual shooting results or very few of them because again, it's new. What did people do when the Gold Dots were new technology?

All I'm saying is that you have to test bullet designs somehow and you don't have any shootings using new bullets, so you approximate the scenerio and go from there.

[steelshooter]

Thats nice. Yet the FBI labs have had to throw out many thousands of investigations because it turns out their labs and methods are all screwed up and have been for years. Then you should go with whatever makes you happy. My painfully obvious point, illustrated by the various research I have cited, is that there is a lot of disagreement about the various studies and methods. Ballistic gelatin test doesn't even pass the common sense test. What can I say a lot of people and organizations love gelatin tests. Makes things nice and simple.

[cmdrdredd]

Thats nice. Yet the FBI labs have had to throw out many thousands of investigations because it turns out their labs and methods are all screwed up and have been for years. Then you should go with whatever makes you happy. My painfully obvious point, illustrated by the various research I have cited, is that there is a lot of disagreement about the various studies and methods. Ballistic gelatin test doesn't even pass the common sense test. What can I say a lot of people and organizations love gelatin tests. Makes things nice and simple.

How would YOU have Federal, Cor-Bon, Winchester, Remington, Hornady etc etc. test their new designs then? What else is there?

If the test is standardized in the industry and everyone follows the same guidelines you get a pretty good indicator of what works well, and what doesn't. For Instance, shoot at auto glass into gelatin from a specific distance. Same gun, different bullets. If one fragments and one doesn't you have a pretty good indication of what MIGHT happen if you were shooting at auto glass in a firefight. Nothing is guaranteed of course, but I don't think any agency would adopt a new bullet without any type of testing at all and like I said, you can't do human testing which I know if what you're saying is the only indicator. The only problem is that even with the same bullet in 2 different actual shootings, one time that bullet may fail to expand the same as the last time. It happens because as I said, nothing is guaranteed.

[steelshooter]

Have you read ANYTHING I have posted? Anything at all? Jesus just go with gelatin if it makes you happy but don't keep going round and round without reading anything that has been posted. Your still stuck back at the beginning of this thread. Enough.

[cmdrdredd]

Have you read ANYTHING I have posted? Anything at all? Jesus just go with gelatin if it makes you happy but don't keep going round and round without reading anything that has been posted. Your still stuck back at the beginning of this thread. Enough.

I did read, but I'm saying...you WON'T find HST rounds in ANY of the info you posted. What are you gonna do? Just write it off as no good because it's not listed since it's still too new?

Books from 1992 may have info on wound ballistics, but they won't show you how the HST works compared to the Cor-Bon DPX since they weren't even available then.

[gman1868]

http://38super.net/Images/factory%20expansion/CORBON%20DPX.jpg

[denslen]

Maybe I oversimplify things, but i just assume no matter what "wonder bullet" I use there is always the chance (probably pretty good) that it won't work as advertised. I may not expand at all. At the end of the day, you are punching holes, destroying tissue and making exit wounds. the overpenetration argument is a moot point if you are aware of your target and what is beyond. Any round has a potential to overpenetrate.
buy and carry what you can practice with. there is not that much difference.
cheers
Derek

[Sobriquet]

FWIW: i found a small list of FBI approved carry loads and the 147gr HST made the list while the 124gr did not.

Would you mind providing a link? I'd like to see what 230gr .45acp loads they approved. Their HRT teams are using 1911 45acp, so they must have something.

[ispeed]

Just a quick note here about gelatin and why it is used. For a scientific approach you must be able to control all variables to come to a logical conclusion. Sure gelatin is not a perfect medium, but neither is cadaver testing. At least with a gelatin test you can control a lot of variables in terms of distance, gun used, clothing, body composition, fat layer, etc. Each and every cadaver is different unless you find that a set of triplets have all been killed by different rounds out of the same gun at the same distance and at the exact same spot on the body.

Is a gelatin test perfect? No, far from it. But, even testing different rounds on livestock can provide differing results. Unless you shoot each goat in the exact same spot your results are going to be skewed. For instance, say you hit a rib on one goat, but you miss a rib on the next goat. You penetration and expansion will be different.

All I am trying to say, is that you have to start somewhere and gelatin testing is the only reliable testing medium we have at our disposal at this moment. Without gelatin, you are not providing solid scientific results because you are not controling all the variables.

[harrydog]

Would you mind providing a link? I'd like to see what 230gr .45acp loads they approved. Their HRT teams are using 1911 45acp, so they must have something.
I know that one of the accuracy requirements for the 1911 that they are now using had to be with Remington Golden Sabers. I think they're using the bonded version.

[robert14]

Maybe I oversimplify things, but i just assume no matter what "wonder bullet" I use there is always the chance (probably pretty good) that it won't work as advertised. I may not expand at all. At the end of the day, you are punching holes, destroying tissue and making exit wounds. the overpenetration argument is a moot point if you are aware of your target and what is beyond. Any round has a potential to overpenetrate.
buy and carry what you can practice with. there is not that much difference.
cheers
Derek
What he said. Department issued ammo is also (like everything else) driven by costs. We are issued Golden Saber bonded & use Rem FMJ rounds loaded to the same level for pratice (cheaper). Once a year we shoot up the old issue ammo & get new. As we all know, penetration is based on barriers, clothing (believe it or not) and multiple other factors. Never count on the round to perform as advertised & you won't be disappointed.

[Sobriquet]

Never count on the round to perform as advertised & you won't be disappointed.

Isn't that kind of the point? Expecting the round to perform as advertised/designed? lol

They're not making toasters. Hollow point self-defense rounds have no other purpose than to be used on humans. If you pull the trigger with one of their products in the chamber, it should do exactly what they say it will. I don't care if the darned things are $5 a round and need to be engineered like they were made for NASA. Lives are on the line.

[steelshooter]

A lot of people consider this thread by DocGKR to be the ultimate in duty load ammo selection. Don't know if I agree with that but check it out. I think you need a login now to get to the actual article but here is the text. For those who don't read very closely these are not my words but DocGKR's so take it up with him if you issues with what he is saying.

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000964

"When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr:
As you increase bullet size and mass from 9 mm/357 Sig, to .40 S&W, to .45 ACP, more tissue is crushed, resulting in a larger permanent cavity. In addition, the larger bullets often offer better performance through intermediate barriers. For some, the incremental advantages of the larger calibers are offset by weapon platform characteristics. As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense -- it is available at: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm .

Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (Q4355)

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

Notes:
-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc…)

-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 10 or 15 years ago. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.

----------------------------------------

Basically all the standard service calibers work when fed good quality ammunition. The platform picked tends to dictate the caliber. For example, Glocks and Sigs tend to run best in 9 mm; the S&W M&P is the first .40 S&W pistol that seems to offer an ideal ergonomic and shooter friendly package; while a properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with a S&W .45 ACP M&P, HK45, S&W 4566, or possibly the SA .45 ACP XD.

Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to using it for duty. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use.

------------------------------------------

The keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance."

[steelshooter]

Even though I don't think much of the FBI's testing methods this document is essential reading.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

[harrydog]

Even though I don't think much of the FBI's testing methods this document is essential reading.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
I've had this bookmarked for quite awhile now.
You keep saying that you don't think much of the FBI's testing methods and you don't necessarily agree with DocGKR's opinions, yet you post the links to them.
What testing methods do you agree with and why don't you post some links or explain them to us?

[steelshooter]

As i have said I think the studies that combine morgue results with ballistic gelatin are the most realistic. I would have to look up which ones those are. But really I take something from each of them and from my own experience and make up my own mind. Thats why I go with Gold Dots. Everyone seems to like them and they have a long and proven history. Realistically any of the modern JHP's are probably OK. if I wanted to be more experimental I would consider Corbon DPX. Clint at Thunder Ranch likes them which is a very strong endorsement from a guy who uses hardball .45. DPX has awesome barrier performance and terminal effectiveness afterwards. If I was in the habit of shooting people in cars, which I am not, then I would probably make it a first consideration.

http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/corbon/thunderranch.htm

It just irks me when people post a few pictures of perfectly expanded JHP's from water jugs or jello and think they can draw conclusions from that.

[Elesar]

Just to throw in my two cents here. I've always liked that "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" report, I think it brings up a lot of good points.

In my opinion, I think too much emphasis is placed on this or that new HP design. An expanding bullet simply increases your permanent cavity, that's it. Either you make a .45 hole with hardball or you might make a slighter larger hole with the expanding bullet. Barriers, bones, clothing, less than ideal angles, etc are not considered in most gellatin expansion tests. Reports indicate that handgun bullets do not reliabliy expand a lot of the time.

Shot placement and penetration depth are so much more important than permanent cavity. In fact, greater expantion actually reduces penetration. Given all this, I'd prefer a heavy non-expander for woods carry and a heavy, good penetration HP for home and street. Don't care what kind of HP, as long as it is reliable, heavy and is a good penetrator.

[cmdrdredd]

I can see where the argument comes from that you need actual shooting experiences to compare bullet designs. However, the problem is as I mentioned before there is no actual shooting experiences to be found anywhere publicly available for some of the newer designs. It's just a simple fact that the only testing we have to base on is theoretical. It's pretty safe to say that if a bullet expands larger and penetrates better in all testing than another design that it will be likely to do the same when it's used in the real world. No guarantees, but there's no other information available on designs that are only a couple years old at this point.

[steelshooter]

As far as I know nobody takes permanent cavity seriously anymore. I would only disagree with you slightly on expansion. Modern designs do expand more often than not and they are more than slighlty larger than the original round. Every little bit helps and increases the chances of cutting arteries or otherwise damaging something vital especally if you have good penetration past the protective skin, fat,and bone layers. I doubt there are huge differences in modern JHP's but I also see no need to use newer more esoteric rounds when others are known to do the job. Not that I'm not interested in new cool JHP's, I am. I like reading about them but I'm not going to be using them until they have been around long enough for proven real world use. Barrier tests tell you how a round might perform against a similar barrier. I'm not too concerned about shooting through barriers these days but cops are. Gelatin tests for wounding a human? Next to meaningless to me and I have no reason to take a chance on the coolest newest thing when there are proven rounds out there. Those would include Gold Dots, Winchester T, Hornady XTP, Golden Saber, among others.

Just to throw in my two cents here. I've always liked that "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" report, I think it brings up a lot of good points.

In my opinion, I think too much emphasis is placed on this or that new HP design. An expanding bullet simply increases your permanent cavity, that's it. Either you make a .45 hole with hardball or you might make a slighter larger hole with the expanding bullet. Barriers, bones, clothing, less than ideal angles, etc are not considered in most gellatin expansion tests. Reports indicate that handgun bullets do not reliabliy expand a lot of the time.

Shot placement and penetration depth are so much more important than permanent cavity. In fact, greater expantion actually reduces penetration. Given all this, I'd prefer a heavy non-expander for woods carry and a heavy, good penetration HP for home and street. Don't care what kind of HP, as long as it is reliable, heavy and is a good penetrator.

[Otown]

I run HST through my USP compact .40, Keltec P9 and soon to be my Kimber. Great stuff, awesome expansion, and have never had a failure.

Good luck!

[Federale]

Would you mind providing a link? I'd like to see what 230gr .45acp loads they approved. Their HRT teams are using 1911 45acp, so they must have something.

The .45 round is the 230 gr. Remington Golden Saber (GS45ABP)

And before you ask, up until recently, the issued 40 and 9mm loads were as follows:
Speer Gold Dot 40 S&W 165 gr. GDHP
Speer Gold Dot 9mm 147 gr. GDHP

But Winchester recently won two contracts, first for .40 and then for 9mm

Winchester Ammunition
11/26/2007
The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has awarded Winchester® Ammunition the single largest ammunition contract in the history of federal law enforcement worth a maximum of $54 million.

Winchester Ammunition will produce 40 S&W service ammunition, training ammunition, reduced lead training ammunition and frangible ammunition for the FBI for one base year, with four, one-year renewal options.

Winchester’s enhanced 40 S&W service ammunition is a 180-grain, bonded jacketed hollow point round and was selected over all other rounds that were tested. The FBI tests the terminal ballistics of each round by shooting a specific test protocol through various barriers such as heavy cloth, wallboard, plywood, steel and auto glass into ballistic gelatin.

In addition to the FBI, the contract affects many agencies both inside and outside the Department of Justice, including the Drug Enforcement Administration, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and U.S. Marshal Service.

FBI AWARDS SECOND AMMUNITION CONTRACT TO WINCHESTER

Winchester Ammunition
2/7/2008
Winchester® Ammunition is proud to announce that it recently was awarded a second contract to service the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). In addition to its contract with the FBI to supply 40 Smith & Wesson loads, Winchester Ammunition will also supply 9mm Luger ammunition.

The new 9mm Luger contract is worth a maximum of $54 million, and the two contracts combined will be worth a maximum of $108 million over five years — the largest ammunition contracts in the history of federal law enforcement.

Winchester’s 9mm service ammunition utilizes a 147-grain, bonded hollow point bullet and was selected over all other rounds tested. The FBI evaluates the terminal ballistics of each round by shooting a specific test protocol through various barriers such as heavy cloth, wallboard, plywood, steel and auto glass into ballistic gelatin.

The 10mm load is Federal 190gr., just like this:
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c270/dspipes/Others/DSC010172.jpg

to feed this:
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c270/dspipes/HKs/DSC00340.jpg

[cmdrdredd]

As far as I know nobody takes permanent cavity seriously anymore. I would only disagree with you slightly on expansion. Modern designs do expand more often than not and they are more than slighlty larger than the original round. Every little bit helps and increases the chances of cutting arteries or otherwise damaging something vital especally if you have good penetration past the protective skin, fat,and bone layers. I doubt there are huge differences in modern JHP's but I also see no need to use newer more esoteric rounds when others are known to do the job. Not that I'm not interested in new cool JHP's, I am. I like reading about them but I'm not going to be using them until they have been around long enough for proven real world use. Barrier tests tell you how a round might perform against a similar barrier. I'm not too concerned about shooting through barriers these days but cops are. Gelatin tests for wounding a human? Next to meaningless to me and I have no reason to take a chance on the coolest newest thing when there are proven rounds out there. Those would include Gold Dots, Winchester T, Hornady XTP, Golden Saber, among others.

Technology always moves forwards, not backwards so there's no reason to think that new designs aren't better in some way.

[Sobriquet]

Thanks very much, Federale.

[Federale]

Thanks very much, Federale.

I have loaded a fair number of Golden Sabers into my .45 Expert without any reliability issues. They also feed very reliably in my Glock 21 and my 1911s, (and yes, that includes my Springfield Professional). I think the rounded nose of the GS bullet is very similar in shape to the nose of FMJ ball ammunition and that has a lot to do with why it feeds so well in so many pistols, especially the 1911.

[steelshooter]

That is a very simplistic and demonstrably untrue statement. But if you want to put your faith in that be my guest.

Technology always moves forwards, not backwards so there's no reason to think that new designs aren't better in some way.

[denslen]

when there is money to be made, "technology" always moves forward...but newest is not always best.
cheers
Derek

[jamesp]

hey all. i just want to make sure i am ordering the correct round for my guns. i want to order the gold dots HP for both .45 and 9mm. there are different packaging for them and i just want to get the correct round. i have provided links and i know steelshooter is familiar with these rounds. so if he or anyone can clarify i would appreciate it.

http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php?pName=20rds-45-acp-speer-gold-dot-230gr-hp-ammo&cName=45-acp-hollow-point-ammo

http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php?pName=50rds-45-acp-speer-le-gold-dot-230gr-hp-ammo&cName=45-acp-hollow-point-ammo

[harrydog]

I'd go for the LE version. 50 rounds for $28.95 as opposed to 20 rounds for $22.69 makes the decision easy. I can't imagine that the LE version is inferior in any way...maybe someone else knows what the difference is, if any.

[denslen]

it's the same round. the 50 round boxes come from law enforcement stock. the 20 round boxes for civilian sales.
If HST's were not cheaper the 230 grain standard velocity gold dot is what I would use.
cheers
Derek

[ergon]

Maybe it's just my age maybe it's not. I don't know any ones back ground here nor their training, but that's the key for whatever you use. There isn't a magic bullet. Before I went in the hospital, just got out, I had researched this matter in depth and from what I found it was the HST on top. Sorry, but I don't feel well enough to look it up again and from what I've read here what difference would it make? You need to remember that the agencies have bean counters to deal with so just because the FBI uses it does not make it the best. All bull**** aside it falls back to your training and ALWAYS will. I'm an ex-fed, I know big deal, but I was trained two to the chest and one to the head. After that I don't think the hostile will care if it was 9mm, 40, or 45 he got nailed with. I carry a .45 because I want to. Gun fights are like real estate.........location, location, location.
Erich

[Sobriquet]

Gun fights are like real estate.........location, location, location.
Erich

lol. I like that.

[paratroop23]

if a 147gr 9mm will penetrate too far, what about a 230gr .45? I wouldn't worry with either.

FWIW: i found a small list of FBI approved carry loads and the 147gr HST made the list while the 124gr did not.

Where is this list?

[Federale]

Where is this list?

Try post #72 on the previous page. ;)

[cmdrdredd]

Where is this list?

Posted previously by steelshooter. It's the same as the FBI approved loads. I guess the testing for these rounds was done with the help of FBI people.

Anyway, I wondered why the 124gr version didn't make the cut...whatever the cut actually was.

For what it's worth I have 2 boxes of 147gr HST 9mm, 2 boxes of 230gr HST .45, 2 boxes of Corbon DPX 115gr +p 9mm, and 2 boxes of Corbon DPX 185gr +p .45 coming to me in the next week. I will test each and determine which shoots best, which feels best, and which seems the most reliable. From there I will decide (based on the penetration and expansion testing available online) which I will use in my guns full time. I like the HST, but I also think that a solid copper bullet is the future. Plus, being lead free it's arguably more environmental friendly. In any case, whichever seems to do better for me I will use and report here what I find (sorry no camera for any pics or whatnot).

[AwaySooner]

This is a nice thread. Right now all my 9mm and .45acp home defense ammo start with 2 round of Federal EFMJ to ensure proper feed since it's not HP, the third round is HST and alternate with EFMJ for the rest. I figure I miss one shot, second shot would hopefully hit, and if it doesn't stop the BG, HST would be up next. I know it sounds stupid, but hey, I feel better.

[Federale]

Posted previously by steelshooter. It's the same as the FBI approved loads. I guess the testing for these rounds was done with the help of FBI people.

Anyway, I wondered why the 124gr version didn't make the cut...whatever the cut actually was.

For what it's worth I have 2 boxes of 147gr HST 9mm, 2 boxes of 230gr HST .45, 2 boxes of Corbon DPX 115gr +p 9mm, and 2 boxes of Corbon DPX 185gr +p .45 coming to me in the next week. I will test each and determine which shoots best, which feels best, and which seems the most reliable. From there I will decide (based on the penetration and expansion testing available online) which I will use in my guns full time. I like the HST, but I also think that a solid copper bullet is the future. Plus, being lead free it's arguably more environmental friendly. In any case, whichever seems to do better for me I will use and report here what I find (sorry no camera for any pics or whatnot).

Let's be clear, what Steelshooter posted is not the FBI list of rounds approved for carry by FBI agents. The list I posted IS the list of rounds issued to FBI agents and approved for duty carry.

His list is of ammunition that was found suitable based on the testing criteria. This is NOT the same as what is approved for carry by FBI agents.

[cmdrdredd]

Let's be clear, what Steelshooter posted is not the FBI list of rounds approved for carry by FBI agents. The list I posted IS the list of rounds issued to FBI agents and approved for duty carry.

How come on another forum where I found the same list it was labeled as FBI approved carry ammo?

My mistake then.

[cmdrdredd]

This is a nice thread. Right now all my 9mm and .45acp home defense ammo start with 2 round of Federal EFMJ to ensure proper feed since it's not HP, the third round is HST and alternate with EFMJ for the rest. I figure I miss one shot, second shot would hopefully hit, and if it doesn't stop the BG, HST would be up next. I know it sounds stupid, but hey, I feel better.

Rather load up all the same type...why? Think about your first shot going bang right? Then the next shot being loaded differently and going BANG instead of just bang. Catch me? You may be surprised where you don't want to be surprised.

[Federale]

How come on another forum where I found the same list it was labeled as FBI approved carry ammo?

My mistake then.

Because an actual FBI agent didn't post that information. ;) There's plenty of bad or misleading information out there posted about the FBI.

The FBI does a ton of ballistic testing and there is plenty of ammunition out there that meets or exceeds the FBI's protocols. That's not the same as saying that "this is what the FBI actually carries." That's the list I provided.

[AwaySooner]

Rather load up all the same type...why? Think about your first shot going bang right? Then the next shot being loaded differently and going BANG instead of just bang. Catch me? You may be surprised where you don't want to be surprised.

That's a good point, right now 9mm go into p2000sk, so I use 124gr +P due to the short barrel. 0.45 go into HK45c, non +P and since both of them are made by Federal, I can't tell the difference at the range.

[cmdrdredd]

That's a good point, right now 9mm go into p2000sk, so I use 124gr +P due to the short barrel. 0.45 go into HK45c, non +P and since both of them are made by Federal, I can't tell the difference at the range.

The way I see it, practice with what you carry at least once a month and always carry the same type all the time.

If you change ammo, then run a box through to check reliability. Then practice once a month to be sure you are confident in your ability to control it as well as keep a steady supply of it. Once a month isn't a whole lot of time, and not a whole lot of money. Just one magazine a month is plenty. I mean plenty. Also I try to keep myself from doing a lot of rapid fire, too many double taps, unaimed fire etc. I concentrate, make every shot count and always note why the last shot went where it did. I try to mentally think about what I did on that last round down range and determine where I failed. That way I am confident that I can put the bullet where I intend (or at least very close) and also believe I can handle it. It reduces the amount of jitter and shakiness you have in your stance and grip.

Double taps are good, but most people do it wrong anyway. A Double tap isn't pressing the trigger to shoot 2 rounds as fast as you can. Rather, it's squeezing the trigger for the first aimed shot and then aligning your sights on target as quickly as you can for the follow up shot. You aren't always doing to shoot 2 in a row bang-bang like the movies. You may even have a pause like bang 1sec-2sec, got target sighted and bang. Speed comes with time. This is why I tend not to do any rapid fire and prefer to concentrate on single shot accuracy for the most part and if I do doubletaps at all it's only a couple times a session.

[Sobriquet]

Because an actual FBI agent didn't post that information. ;)

*Starts humming the theme to Dragnet*

I tell ya. I think this is the baddest, most lethal set of forums on the net. We've got Marines, Soldiers, SEALs, ex-Delta guys, SWAT operators, and more LEOs than you can shake a stick at. If the SHTF, I hope I'm at an HKPro meet-up.

[Greg Bell]

I was at a recent Hackathorn/Vickers low-light class and they mocked the FBI HRT teams choice of the 230 gr. Remington Golden Saber. Not because of its downrange effectiveness, but because of the enormous white blast that the round produces.

[steelshooter]

Ayoob says the same thing. He also says it's a very accurate round.

[Federale]

I was at a recent Hackathorn/Vickers low-light class and they mocked the FBI HRT teams choice of the 230 gr. Remington Golden Saber. Not because of its downrange effectiveness, but because of the enormous white blast that the round produces.

I'm pretty sure that its an enormous golden blast. ;)

This is true, this round does produce quite a dazzling muzzle blast. It is quite spectacular in a short barreled 1911 (like my Officers Model) and I'm not quite sure that I would choose it myself (provided that I had a choice) in a short barreled pistol.

However, in a full sized 1911, I don't find it to be so pronounced that its an issue.

It is a very accurate round and it does feed very reliably in the 1911.

Are there other rounds that perform similarly but without the muzzle blast? Sure. Are they what the FBI chose? No.

[Greg Bell]

The Gold Dots seemed to have a pretty muted blast. I suspect you are right though, it is more about getting a round that runs 100 percent in their 1911s. I am surprised they couldn't get the manufacturer to adopt some flash-retardant powder.

Also, the gun we demoed with the rounds was an M&P, which has a slightly shorter barrel.

[steelshooter]

Thats the regular Gold Dot not the short barrel version if thats what you want. It is my understanding that the short barrel version has the bullet tweaked to expand at lower velocities. i don't know any more than that about it and have never used it, just regular Gold Dots.

hey all. i just want to make sure i am ordering the correct round for my guns. i want to order the gold dots HP for both .45 and 9mm. there are different packaging for them and i just want to get the correct round. i have provided links and i know steelshooter is familiar with these rounds. so if he or anyone can clarify i would appreciate it.

http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php?pName=20rds-45-acp-speer-gold-dot-230gr-hp-ammo&cName=45-acp-hollow-point-ammo

http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php?pName=50rds-45-acp-speer-le-gold-dot-230gr-hp-ammo&cName=45-acp-hollow-point-ammo

[jme625]

Streichers is a good source for the LE ammo www.streichers.com

[steelshooter]

Here is their ammo page.
http://www.streichers.com/ProductList.aspx?catalog=Guns+and+Ammo&Category=AMMO_DHAND&ps=500&s=ItemPriceASC

I would like to find a place that has Winchester Ranger T if anyone knows of one.

[steelshooter]

Looks like Google is my friend. I found some Ranger T 230gr +P in stock and ordered a couple boxes.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=RA45TP&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26sea rchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DWINC

[ergon]

Streichers prices are higher than Ammo To Go. I just checked.

[cmdrdredd]

Looks like Google is my friend. I found some Ranger T 230gr +P in stock and ordered a couple boxes.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=RA45TP&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26sea rchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DWINC

Wouldn't +p in a 230gr .45 be overdoing it? I used +p 230gr HSTs for a bit now (fired a few mags no issue), but I'm thinking maybe it's not even necessary plus the recoil is pretty hefty if you plan to do followup shots. I can see having a +p 185gr to reach higher velocities to achieve optimal expansion with a particular bullet such as the Corbon DPX or some of the other options that are in a lighter bullet.

I'll see when I get my orders in and decide whether I like the 230gr+p, 230gr standard pressure, or 185gr +p

[steelshooter]

In general, in a full sized pistol, I don't see the need for +P in .45 but they didn't have the regular 230gr in stock so I ordered this. I do use 124gr +P in 9mm because with 9mm I want that little edge even it its only a perceived edge on my part. I do think +P+ in 9mm is overdoing it. I figure you might as well get a .40 if your going to do that.

[cmdrdredd]

In general, in a full sized pistol, I don't see the need for +P in .45 but they didn't have the regular 230gr in stock so I ordered this. I do use 124gr +P in 9mm because with 9mm I want that little edge even it its only a perceived edge on my part. I do think +P+ in 9mm is overdoing it. I figure you might as well get a .40 if your going to do that.

That gets me curious about ammo like doubletap which is loaded to +p and gets higher velocity than factory +p+. It's all over my head and makes it so confusing when you're trying to pick out what you want to try out in your gun.

[cmdrdredd]

Well, fired off 2 boxes of 147gr HST and had 1 failure to feed. Bullet looked like the below picture. 2 boxes of Corbon DPX 115gr +p functioned fine with no issues to report. The Corbon was actually easier in the recoil department. There was much less muzzle flip and more of a push in my P30. The DPX also seemed more consistant shot to shot from my gun. This could be due to the nature of my particular weapon. Anyhow, I like the DPX better and will be sticking with it from now on.

I also tried the HST 230gr +p and standard in my Hk45 against the DPX 185gr +p. No failures of ANY type here. Everything functioned flawlessly. The real shocker was that I was more accurate with both of the +p loadings than the standard pressure HST. For whatever reason the recoil didn't affect my accuracy on target nor my ability to get a quick double tap in. I prefer the 185gr +p DPX to the HST 230gr +p as the recoil is less harsh. Sorry I don't have any pictures of my targets, I trashed them at the range.

BTW: I loaded the same bullet into the chamber and ejected it 10 times with each ammo type and none of the tested rounds suffered ANY bullet setback when measured with a micrometer.



147gr Federal HST failure to feed
http://xs127.xs.to/xs127/08226/dsc_0001869.jpg

[BytorJr]

I assume this got hung up on the ramp? Or was it like that and you tried to see if it would feed?

I just bought a bunch of the 124g non+P (I've got a non+p rated gun around I want to try this with), so this concerns me. The HST rounds are quite a bit shorter in OAL than the Gold Dots but look on par with TAP in OAL.

[cmdrdredd]

I assume this got hung up on the ramp? Or was it like that and you tried to see if it would feed?

I just bought a bunch of the 124g non+P (I've got a non+p rated gun around I want to try this with), so this concerns me. The HST rounds are quite a bit shorter in OAL than the Gold Dots but look on par with TAP in OAL.

I can tell you for a fact that it was NOT like this out of the box. I would definitely have noticed.

You should try the HST, like I said it was one out of 100 and all 200 .45 HST rounds through my HK45 (2boxes of 230gr +p and 2boxes of 230gr standard) were fine.

[kraigster414]

The August 08 issue of "Combat Handguns" has a very good article on this subject (page 68) by Chuck Taylor who I have a lot of respect for and is well-regarded in the LE community. Without spending too much time on this, Taylor's view (and I support for what it's worth), is that +P as far as the .45 ACP are according to Taylor, "in general, neither necessary or worth the price you pay for only getting higher velocities. Bullet expansion still isn't spectacular (and thus stopping power is not enhanced to a sufficiently improved level), control is virtually non-existent and weapon service life is negatively affected."

Best you read the entire article however. In short, any quality factory non +P load should serve you well in the home or on the waist.

[reaper8154]

The only reason I use +P HST 230 is because if I want normal pressure all my department issues is the Ranger. Both are good rounds, but I am partial to the HST. I don't plan on shooting the several thousands of rounds of duty ammo it would take to really wear on my pistol anyway. I know my HK45 gobbles the HST up, so I practice with WWB.

[BytorJr]

I was amazed at how close 124g HST was to the 124g+P HST in muzzle velocity and energy. A little more difference with Gold Dot between + and normal loading, but not earth shattering.

[cmdrdredd]

The August 08 issue of "Combat Handguns" has a very good article on this subject (page 68) by Chuck Taylor who I have a lot of respect for and is well-regarded in the LE community. Without spending too much time on this, Taylor's view (and I support for what it's worth), is that +P as far as the .45 ACP are according to Taylor, "in general, neither necessary or worth the price you pay for only getting higher velocities. Bullet expansion still isn't spectacular (and thus stopping power is not enhanced to a sufficiently improved level), control is virtually non-existent and weapon service life is negatively affected."

Best you read the entire article however. In short, any quality factory non +P load should serve you well in the home or on the waist.

Be that as it may, the DPX is only available in +p although it isn't as much of a kick as the HST +p IMO. Becides, I'm not going to be shooting boxes of this stuff at a time now, just a magazine every couple of month.

[steelshooter]

+P is recommended in short barreled .45's to attain sufficient velocity. I don't normally use +P but I don't find it impossible to control when I do.

[cmdrdredd]

+P is recommended in short barreled .45's to attain sufficient velocity. I don't normally use +P but I don't find it impossible to control when I do.

That's what I noticed too although the DPX is lighter than the HST in the recoil. I guess maybe because the HST was 230gr and the DPX 185gr?

[Chui]

Josh, is it the +P round? Is +P ammo really necessary with such an efficiently expanding round? If it isn't necessary, I'd rather get standard pressure for reduced recoil for a quicker follow-up shot. That may mean waiting a while before I can find someone who has the regular HST in stock. This stuff is as hard to find as the HK45 mags.

Is there a marking on the ammo box to let me know when it was produced? I don't want to buy ammo that's been sitting in a warehouse for 4 years or something.

Thanks to all who responded.


Now THERE'S a THINKING MAN!!

:350:

[kraigster414]

Be that as it may, the DPX is only available in +p although it isn't as much of a kick as the HST +p IMO. Becides, I'm not going to be shooting boxes of this stuff at a time now, just a magazine every couple of month.

Taylor speaks highly of the Corbon DPX .45 ACP and places it in a class by itself - no surprise. I too use it as my carry load. It's the vast majority of .45 +P's he's not particular impressed with. 'Suggest everyone read his article in CH.

[cmdrdredd]

Taylor speaks highly of the Corbon DPX .45 ACP and places it in a class by itself - no surprise. I too use it as my carry load. It's the vast majority of .45 +P's he's not particular impressed with. 'Suggest everyone read his article in CH.

I think a bit of the bad press around the internet is due to past problems with Corbon which have since been fixed. Plus I notice many people complain about bullet setback issues. Well, look at the threads where the most prominent complaints arise from, note that most of them are using a 1911. Some of them have a feed ramp which can really cause problems. Personally I'm confident in the DPX round and will be using that as my standard carry load in my P30 as well as keeping it loaded up in my HK45 for home.

Also, NO ammo is 100% perfect all the time. I mean, you could have any number of small issues with seating, primering, loading the powder etc. It's not uncommon for even the most respected names like Federal, Speer, Winchester, and Remington to have one or 2 bads in a lot. If they are found they will make it right for you. Most companies will offer a 2 for one swap on any box you provide to them with an improperly manufactured round provided you send the unused ones from the same box to them. The manufacturer can tell what lot and when it as produced by some markings or numbers on the box of ammo.

[H&KDAVE]

My department gives us Winchester Ranger ammo, but I have the federal at home. Its great stuff.

Dave

[steelshooter]

I had a a nutcase behind me in a car the other day screwing with me and I had my HK 45 loaded with gold Dots in the car. I was thinking how well those Corbon DPX's would have gone through his windshield or door. Even thought the guy was out of control and threatening I just pretended to be calling the police on my phone and he went away. It's the only "boutique" ammo I am interested in.

Taylor speaks highly of the Corbon DPX .45 ACP and places it in a class by itself - no surprise. I too use it as my carry load. It's the vast majority of .45 +P's he's not particular impressed with. 'Suggest everyone read his article in CH.

[AwaySooner]

Speer Gold Dots are bonded, I am sure you can get through the windshield too. Especially if you are using +p in a full size HK45 with longer barrel. :) I much rather prefer ammo that feeds well everytime. There should be more test on which JHP has better QC and feed properly, say how many stoppage per 100 rds, or some such statistic. That's why I use EFMJ for the first two round of my defensive ammo. So far all the HKs I own would eat anything I gives, Federal, Corbon, Speer, that's a good thing.

[Lone_Ranger]

Isn't that kind of the point? Expecting the round to perform as advertised/designed? lol

They're not making toasters. Hollow point self-defense rounds have no other purpose than to be used on humans. If you pull the trigger with one of their products in the chamber, it should do exactly what they say it will. I don't care if the darned things are $5 a round and need to be engineered like they were made for NASA. Lives are on the line.

Sure it was. Fun stuff. The FBI standards never made much sense to me. They do gelatin, gelatin in four layers of denim, and various materials. Well the materials make sense if you want to know about barrier penetration but thats all.
More reading including the FBI stuff.

Wound ballistics related articles:

Patrick, Urey W.:"Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness." U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, 1989.




If you do put any weight on the FBI studies, the article "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" pretty much says, not to rely on any pistol bullet to expand as advertised. That's why a pistol is a defensive weapon. If you know you're walking into a gun fight, take a long gun.

[AWD]

+P is recommended in short barreled .45's to attain sufficient velocity. I don't normally use +P but I don't find it impossible to control when I do.

I have a 9mm and so do not mean to hijack this thread, but what about a short-barreled 9mm? My USPc has a 3.58" barrel. Should I choose a +P load or regular? 124 or 147?

AWD

[cmdrdredd]

I have a 9mm and so do not mean to hijack this thread, but what about a short-barreled 9mm? My USPc has a 3.58" barrel. Should I choose a +P load or regular? 124 or 147?

AWD

Many people use 147gr bullets in their P30 or Glock 19. Similar sized barrels should produce similar results to these which is not bad. a 124gr +p would also work. Actually, I think they'd all work sufficiently. I personally use 115gr +p Corbon DPX in my P30 which as you know has a 3.86" barrel. The difference in attained velocity is marginal at best between 3.58" and 3.86"

I prefer +p in 9mm to attain higher velocity. In .45 I believe it's less of a factor because of the bullet's sufficient size and momentum which is held after impact.

I think of it like this, but it may be inaccurate so anyone can feel free to correct me if my description is wrong.

In 9mm I prefer to have a fast bullet . I want it to move fast so that it penetrates deep enough and doesn't stop short of the optimal distance for said bullet. Whatever it may be.
With a .45 I prefer to have a slightly slower moving projectile because the size of the bullet allows for deep penetration anyhow since it will carry enough momentum. I believe that in a .45 that you may get a bit of over penetration in certain situations if it's loaded too hot and thus moves too fast so that the bullet doesn't expand properly or uniformly.

[steelshooter]

I can't say I know for sure on the question of a 9mm in a short barrel but I have my opinion. First the 9mm is already a faster round than a .45 in most cases. Secondly I use a +P 9mm just because I think it gives a little edge in performance. At the same time I think +P+ is overkill and you might as well go to a .40 if your are going to have that kind of recoil. 3rd I don't think of te P30 as a short barrel for the 9mm in the same I do the HK45c for .45 which is already a slower moving round. Having said all the well Speer makes a Gold Dot for short barrel in all calibers. That round is designed to provide consistent expansion in short barrels. The test barrel length they use for 9mm is 3.5 inches. For .45 it is 4 inches.

http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx
Gold Dot Short Barrel Personal Protection
Detail 23611 9mm Luger +P 124 GDHP-SB 20 1
Detail 23917 357 Magnum 135 GDHP-SB 20 1
Detail 23921 38 Special +P 135 GDHP-SB 20 1
Detail 23971 44 Magnum 200 GDHP-SB 20 1
Detail 23974 40 S&W 180 GDHP-SB 20 1
Detail 23975 45 Auto 230 GDHP-SB 20 1

[steelshooter]

Yes we all know that but we are in fact talking about handguns. Also the 1989 study is out of date regarding modern JHP's which have changed quite a bit just in the last 5 to 10 years due to better propellants and bullet design for consistent expansion.

If you do put any weight on the FBI studies, the article "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" pretty much says, not to rely on any pistol bullet to expand as advertised. That's why a pistol is a defensive weapon. If you know you're walking into a gun fight, take a long gun.

[Limey]

My Dept Issues me Federal 230gr LE Hydroshok it works just fine (HK45). Any modern hollowpoint will do its job if you do yours. I carry 147gr Ranger T rounds in my 9mm's.
The short barrel gives up very few FPS, the Glock 26 runs about 150-200fps less than
the 17. Plus P rounds in a bonded format make good sense in a shorty.


"If you know you're walking into a gun fight, take a long gun"....goes without saying. We carry handguns for convenience, any high risk situations and I am reaching for the M16 or 870 first.

[steelshooter]

Your department issues HK 45's?

[AWD]

Could someone explain a few things to me?

I am looking at my Natchez catalog right now and I see these two...

COR BON 9mm+P 115gr, JHP 1350fps/ 466 ft.lbs.
COR BON 9mm+P 115gr, DPX 1275fps/ 415 ft.lbs.

The two 45ACP have similar proportions. What does the DPX have over the JHP besides less velocity and energy?

Also I have read two articles online saying not to use a JHP in 9mm over 125gr., why do you all suppose that is being tossed around the 'net? Incidentally, Corbon does not offer a 9mm in anything higher than 125gr (at least not in this catalog...)

Thanks,
AWD

[spyder1439]

i wish my department issued hk45's that would be sweeeeet

[steelshooter]

DPX ses a solid copper Barnes Bullet while the Corbon KJHPs' are probably bonded. The Barnes bullet is supposed to not come apart, especially in barriers as bonded bullets are said to do and retain their shape in whatever you shoot as well due to being all copper.

147 grain used to be know for over-penetrating and inconsistent expansion. A lot of people still believe that is the case but it appears newer propellants and improvements in bullet design have made 147gr an effective round. i prefer to split the difference between 115gr and 147gr by going with 124gr +P.


Could someone explain a few things to me?

I am looking at my Natchez catalog right now and I see these two...

COR BON 9mm+P 115gr, JHP 1350fps/ 466 ft.lbs.
COR BON 9mm+P 115gr, DPX 1275fps/ 415 ft.lbs.

The two 45ACP have similar proportions. What does the DPX have over the JHP besides less velocity and energy?

Also I have read two articles online saying not to use a JHP in 9mm over 125gr., why do you all suppose that is being tossed around the 'net? Incidentally, Corbon does not offer a 9mm in anything higher than 125gr (at least not in this catalog...)

Thanks,
AWD

[cmdrdredd]

Could someone explain a few things to me?

I am looking at my Natchez catalog right now and I see these two...

COR BON 9mm+P 115gr, JHP 1350fps/ 466 ft.lbs.
COR BON 9mm+P 115gr, DPX 1275fps/ 415 ft.lbs.

The two 45ACP have similar proportions. What does the DPX have over the JHP besides less velocity and energy?

Also I have read two articles online saying not to use a JHP in 9mm over 125gr., why do you all suppose that is being tossed around the 'net? Incidentally, Corbon does not offer a 9mm in anything higher than 125gr (at least not in this catalog...)

Thanks,
AWD

Throw out the energy numbers as they don't translate to actual performance. The DPX is a solid copper bullet which is heat treated. It is guaranteed not to fragment even when fired through barriers like car windows etc. It will hold together and is pretty much always going to achieve 12" of penetration minimum and expansion is very consistant since there is no lead core.

Corbon typically offers lighter bullets with higher velocity. That's just their thing.

[AWD]

Cmdrdrd and Steelshooter, thank you both for the info. I am going to move this to a seperate article for 9mm.

[Sobriquet]

FYI, I ordered three 50 round boxes of the standard pressure Federal HST rounds. I'll post my impressions and pics of targets after I get a chance to try a box.

[Limey]

Your department issues HK 45's?


Nope.......... Glock 17. But we can carry personally owned pistols after qualification that are approved and are 9mm or better. I bought the 21SF, M&P45 and HK45 when i decided to go 'polymer' 45. I still have the HK45 after I owned and shot all three over a few months.
The her two are sold.

Dept issues the Ammo.

[steelshooter]

Yeah I had a Glock 21 FS. Still like it but the HK is better. I had two M&P .45's. Those were sold after buying the HK 45.

[Hawaiian]

OK, I read this entire thread and decided that most handguns won't stop a BG. Guess I better buy a stronger belt and a longer coat. And carry this.
Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter. 44mag. So much for +p+

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b152/Hawaiianone/Guns/44-one.jpg

[cmdrdredd]

OK, I read this entire thread and decided that most handguns won't stop a BG. Guess I better buy a stronger belt and a longer coat. And carry this.
Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter. 44mag. So much for +p+

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b152/Hawaiianone/Guns/44-one.jpg

If that's what you got out of it, you missed the whole point.

[steelshooter]

I shot 40 rounds of the Corbon 185gr DPX today. Very nice round. Little recoil, accurate, and smashed up some big rocks that WWB just moved a little. For whatever thats worth. ;-) Anyway I like it a lot and the Barnes all copper bullet makes a lot of sense to me. Runs 1075 fps with 475 ft lbs of energy.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/dpx_022305/

[cmdrdredd]

I shot 40 rounds of the Corbon 185gr DPX today. Very nice round. Little recoil, accurate, and smashed up some big rocks that WWB just moved a little. For whatever thats worth. ;-) Anyway I like it a lot and the Barnes all copper bullet makes a lot of sense to me. Runs 1075 fps with 475 ft lbs of energy.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/dpx_022305/

Yeah, I love this stuff. I was surprised at hoe it felt and shot. At first I didn't know what to expect. A winner in my eyes.

[Sobriquet]

Is anyone running Federal HST 45acp ammo through their HK45? I went to the range this weekend to see if it would run through my HK45, but they disallow hollow point ammo. I need to find another range, but am considering charging the magazine with it anyway in the interim.

[cmdrdredd]

Is anyone running Federal HST 45acp ammo through their HK45? I went to the range this weekend to see if it would run through my HK45, but they disallow hollow point ammo. I need to find another range, but am considering charging the magazine with it anyway in the interim.

I used it for a while with no issues. 200 rounds trouble free.

I currently use DPX as I like it better, but the HST was fine.

[Jenkem]

Is anyone running Federal HST 45acp ammo through their HK45? I went to the range this weekend to see if it would run through my HK45, but they disallow hollow point ammo. I need to find another range, but am considering charging the magazine with it anyway in the interim.

I shot a box of fifty Federal HST 230gr +P rounds on monday out of my HK45 and man do those pack a punch. big difference from the regular old Winchester white box 230gr. after shooting a couple mags my grip was loosening and my hand was sweating a little so you've really gotta have a good grip on your pistol when shooting that stuff.

[Huskyoff]

This thread has probably sold more HST than anything....Damn internet hype!

[HKCHEF]

Is there something else I should be considering before buying? Do you have any advice regarding 230 grain bullets versus 185 grain? One of my major considerations is that I live in an urban condo building and have neighbors and common areas on the other side of my walls. I need something that'll put down a bad guy without going through a wall and hurting a neighbor.

Ranger SXT, if you can get them. Or Speer Dot. I like both, they both feed well, if I had to pick I would only use the Ranger SXT in both .45 and .9mm

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg106/Sukimasterchef/DSC_0210.jpg
I have tested the Ranger SXT in .45 and had good results with the talons.;)

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg106/Sukimasterchef/DSC_0214.jpg
Ranger on the left Pg.870, Corbon PWB in the middle Pg. 814 Hydroshock on the right Pg. 658 from about 10 feet

[Jenkem]

I'd like to get my hands on some of those Rangers but have not been able to find any locally.

[Sobriquet]

I shot a box of fifty Federal HST 230gr +P rounds on monday out of my HK45 and man do those pack a punch. big difference from the regular old Winchester white box 230gr. after shooting a couple mags my grip was loosening and my hand was sweating a little so you've really gotta have a good grip on your pistol when shooting that stuff.

I'm glad I didn't order the +P variant, then. I finally found a range not too far from me that'll allow hollow points. I'll give it a go soon.

[cmdrdredd]

I'm glad I didn't order the +P variant, then. I finally found a range not too far from me that'll allow hollow points. I'll give it a go soon.

you get a chance to try them yet? What do you think.

DPX is hard to come by recently so I am going to start using something I can get more easily, not to mention cheaper. As much as I like the DPX, I can't keep up with how I like to cycle my carry ammo through.

Might even go back to my Gold Dots that I used to use for so long. I will have to see which one I can get readily. If the HST stock doesn't falter I'll stick with them.

[Sobriquet]

I went with a friend of mine to the range, they asked to see in our bags to check the ammo, and we were told no hollow point. I have my HK45 loaded with it right now in my nightstand, but I still haven't fired a shot of it. I ended up firing Federal American Eagle FMJ 230gr that day (good stuff).

Edit: I finally "shot" the HST. Albeit with a camera... lol
http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?p=636987#post636987

It's just going to have to wait until the first of next month. I've got massive commitments for the next three weeks. The new camera finally got here, so I'll have no excuse not to post results from the trip.

[harrydog]

Why do the ranges not allow hollow point? You gotta love California!

[dtheman]

Hey I just got some HST non +P .45 ACP the other week from Ammo to Go, I noticed what look like crimping marks along the "waist" of the casing. Is this normal?

[cmdrdredd]

Hey I just got some HST non +P .45 ACP the other week from Ammo to Go, I noticed what look like crimping marks along the "waist" of the casing. Is this normal?

Yes, that's to reduce/prevent bullet setback when chambering a round. That basically is when a bullet presses too far into the case and causes the pressure to be unsafe for use.

[cmdrdredd]

I went with a friend of mine to the range, they asked to see in our bags to check the ammo, and we were told no hollow point. I have my HK45 loaded with it right now in my nightstand, but I still haven't fired a shot of it. I ended up firing Federal American Eagle FMJ 230gr that day (good stuff).

Edit: I finally "shot" the HST. Albeit with a camera... lol
http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?p=636987#post636987

It's just going to have to wait until the first of next month. I've got massive commitments for the next three weeks. The new camera finally got here, so I'll have no excuse not to post results from the trip.

Ahh damn.

Some ranges don't let you shoot JHP because they are loaded hot and they may not have the facilities at the backstop to reduce ricochet of a round or a jacket that got separated upon impact. Most ranges I have seen, have a steel backstop with a curved surface that deflects the bullets toward the floor or celing and avoids them bouncing back at the shooters.

Here in south FL every range I've been to allows JHP. They say "Practice with what you carry" or "your last mag each session should be your preferred carry load to always check reliability with it". Something to that effect, I've never had my ammo checked. They basically don't care if you shoot WWB from wally world, or home brew reloads. That's another concern some ranges have, reloads. Some hot shot will try to load a 9mm to .357sig levels and blow a finger off when he fires.

The worst ranges are the kind that make you buy their ammo. They mark it up significantly and it's either really light frangible ammo that is too light to be of any real worth using for practice, or some dirty junk I'd never buy myself.

[harrydog]

I've never been to a range that doesn't allow hollow points so it seems strange to me. I would think, if anything, they would ricochet less than FMJ. In California it wouldn't surprise me if it was just deemed the politically correct to ban JHP.

[Sobriquet]

Very, very few places out here allow JHP. The indoor ranges out here are almost all very old and were not built for more powerful rounds of any kind.

There are some ranges, and my friend found and confirmed one, so we're going to try that next time. It's a 40 minute drive each way which sucks. I think you guys would be offended if I told you how few gun shops and firing ranges there are in the entire SoCal area, period. A lot of guys end up driving an hour or more to go somewhere decent.

[Huey]

One of the problems with SJHPs in an indoor range is "splashback", where the semi-jacket separates from the rest of the missile and comes back. That's what one of the range masters at the first indoor range I ever visited told me.

[Cadillac Johnson]

Just a little fyi..

HST's have been around for like 6-7 years. The only recently became the flavor of the month within the last couple years.

There are, and have been LEA's using HST's for a while now and there is a fair amount of real world shooting data out there.

As far as gelatin goes. Of course it's not an accurate representation of a human body. It is however, a controlled, repeatable medium that can be used to see how various bullets perform compared to each other, not how those bullets will necessarily perform in a human.

FWIW, I use HST's, but I'd have no problem using any of the high quality JHP's from the major names.

[cmdrdredd]

Found a super excellent article on another forum that has a lot of pictures of expanded rounds, ballistics information, wound factors, and a list of recommended defense loads by caliber. Enjoyable and informative reading.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

[cmdrdredd]

Anybody have an opinion when it comes to +p or standard 230gr HST loads?

I've tried both, both work. Obviously +p is a bit harder in the recoil department, but I can handle it. Is +p detrimental in any way?

[Sobriquet]

It'll accelerate wear obviously. As we discussed, I just don't see the need for +p .45 ammo unless you're a cop and may need to shoot through windshields or something. If you need that kind of penetration, you're better off with the tactical bonded over the HST anyway.

For a civilian like me, I'll stick to the regular stuff. In 9mm, I'd go +P. Take a look at that link's comparison of .357 SIG to .40 S&W.

[cmdrdredd]

It'll accelerate wear obviously. As we discussed, I just don't see the need for +p .45 ammo unless you're a cop and may need to shoot through windshields or something. If you need that kind of penetration, you're better off with the tactical bonded over the HST anyway.

For a civilian like me, I'll stick to the regular stuff. In 9mm, I'd go +P. Take a look at that link's comparison of .357 SIG to .40 S&W.

in 9mm I plan to go 147gr based on penetration results and I don't know if the +p is good in that weight. Not that it really means much, but it's not on that recommended list.

[Cadillac Johnson]

in 9mm I plan to go 147gr based on penetration results and I don't know if the +p is good in that weight. Not that it really means much, but it's not on that recommended list.

More velocity is always a good thing.

You're never going to lose performance by increasing velocity, but of course you will accelerate wear, and possibly sacrifice speed of follow up shots.

I'd say, if you can shoot 147gr +p as well as standard pressure 147gr then use it. As long as you're not shooting hundreds of rounds per week, you probly wont notice the increased wear.

[cmdrdredd]

More velocity is always a good thing.

You're never going to lose performance by increasing velocity, but of course you will accelerate wear, and possibly sacrifice speed of follow up shots.

I'd say, if you can shoot 147gr +p as well as standard pressure 147gr then use it. As long as you're not shooting hundreds of rounds per week, you probly wont notice the increased wear.

I don't forsee my Hk wearing out with a few rounds of +p every now and again :)

[rohardi]

which ammo is harder to find, HST or Winchester ranger in 45? I have the Winchester now for my HK45. Its hard to come by though.

[Sobriquet]

I've seen Winchester Ranger ammo in local stores. I haven't seen HST. That's not exactly conclusive, but then again, why should availability matter to you? With the internet, anything is just an order away.

[rohardi]

ranger in 45 is very hard to come by, even on the Internet.

[dtheman]

Yes, that's to reduce/prevent bullet setback when chambering a round. That basically is when a bullet presses too far into the case and causes the pressure to be unsafe for use.

Thank you very much.

[gman1868]

Where are you ordering from?
Ammunition to go has the non +P version in stock. Or at least the website says they do. They have the best prices that I've found and they're great to deal with.
I've put a couple hundred rounds of it through my HK45, with no problems of course. I don't think the +P version is necessary but if that's what you want to use, I'm sure the recoil isn't too bad in a pistol like the HK.

I like MidwayUSA. They usually have it in stock, probably because they aren't the cheapest. I don't use it for practice so I figured it wasn't going to kill me to buy it from them. ;)

Corbon DPX:
http://www.dakotaammo.net/art/025.jpg

[AWD]

+1 on the DPX, I've never seen it in stores either. Order online.


http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn55/AWD12345/HKknife013.jpg

[bonehead]

Gonna resurrect this thread.
Anyone else have any experience to report with Federal HST2? I just bought a boat load from tds-us.com. Couldn't find it on Midway or ammotogo. Streichers was $26/box + shipping. Got it from www.tds-us.com. 500 rounds, $24.75-ish including shipping with promo code. I know I should have bought 3 or 4 boxes to start, but I'm just a sucker for saving a few bucks buying in bulk:)

[cmdrdredd]

Gonna resurrect this thread.
Anyone else have any experience to report with Federal HST2? I just bought a boat load from tds-us.com. Couldn't find it on Midway or ammotogo. Streichers was $26/box + shipping. Got it from www.tds-us.com. 500 rounds, $24.75-ish including shipping with promo code. I know I should have bought 3 or 4 boxes to start, but I'm just a sucker for saving a few bucks buying in bulk:)

It's always been 100% reliable for me. Excellent PD ammo. My choice.

[mourneblade]

It's always been 100% reliable for me. Excellent PD ammo. My choice.

+1 same here.

[steelshooter]

Thats my choice too in 185gr +P but is more likely to go through barriers than a 230 grain standard round with lower velocity. As far as +P I barely notice the difference in recoil on my HK 45 or anything else.

An alternative (my carry ammo of choice) Corbon DPX. It works good :)

[cmdrdredd]

Thats my choice too in 185gr +P but is more likely to go through barriers than a 230 grain standard round with lower velocity. As far as +P I barely notice the difference in recoil on my HK 45 or anything else.

Due to me liking to cycle my ammo through every few months, and DPX not being readily available while also coming in 20rnd boxes only, I swore off the stuff.

Good? Yes, but too much money for too little difference. I have no need to shoot through car doors or windows.

[MontanaBighorn]

hello sir,
i know you asked for LEO responses, but id like to through in my experience with this wonderful ammunition. in most any weapon i carry +P if its available with two exceptions. as a result of my own extensive testing i am perfectly confident in HST 147 grain standard pressure 9mm, and i am perfectly confident in HST 230 grain standard pressure .45 acp. although i carry HST 147 grain +P in my glocks and other polymer 9mms, i carry the HST 147 grain standard pressure in my BHPs. although i carry HST 230 grain +P in my .45s, i wouldnt hesitate to carry the standard pressure version either. thats the beauty of .45, you really dont need the +P for excellent performance. carry it with confidence.

[Sobriquet]

This thread never dies, does it? lol

My nightstand HK45 is loaded with the Federal HST 230gr standard pressure stuff and I never did have a failure of any kind with the stuff while I was testing it. I'll order fresh and fire the stuff I have, but I'll probably wait a year or so to do it.

When I ordered for my P7, I went with the 124gr +P HST. The gas system really reduces the felt difference between the standard pressure and the +P stuff. I've never fired +P+, so I can't comment on that.

One of these days, I'd love to find a place where I could set up my own targets. I saw on a board some guy put finishing nails in a 2x4 and stuck old potatoes on it. That sounds like fun... and an interesting way to see the difference between FMJ and a JHP round. Or maybe a few watermelons...

[bonehead]

This thread never dies, does it? lol

My nightstand HK45 is loaded with the Federal HST 230gr standard pressure stuff and I never did have a failure of any kind with the stuff while I was testing it. I'll order fresh and fire the stuff I have, but I'll probably wait a year or so to do it.

You sure like threads to die an untimely death, don't ya?:18::)
Any reason why you say you'll need to order 'fresh' ammo? Stuff should outlast you if stored correctly.

[Sobriquet]

You sure like threads to die an untimely death, don't ya?:18::)
Any reason why you say you'll need to order 'fresh' ammo? Stuff should outlast you if stored correctly.

None from personal experience. I guess you could call it paranoia. I've seen threads where people point out ammo from WW2 still works fine and others recommend rotating out the ammo on a regular basis.

At under $25 a box, I guess my response would be why not rotate it out every year to be on the safe side?

[rohardi]

I took my Winchester ranger 230gr that have been in in my mags for a while to tje range to get some practice with my self defence ammo and I had a round that was a compleat dud. I don't why it didn't fire, it wasn't too old. And Ranger is some pretty high end stuff. I'm just glad I cycled through it at the range and found the bad round.

[steelshooter]

it used to be not long ago that too high a velocity could cause poor expansion but thats seems to have been worked out in the newer designs.

More velocity is always a good thing.

[steelshooter]

I find DPX on sale at Midway all the time. Gold Dots went up recently. I forget what I paid for my last box..I bought two 20 rounds boxes and it was expensive. But SD rounds aren't something I try to save money on.

BTW are you sure you will never have to shoot through a car door or window? How about your own? All modern JHP are designed to penetrate barriers and expand well whether they are passing through a barrier or not just like Corbon DPX.

Due to me liking to cycle my ammo through every few months, and DPX not being readily available while also coming in 20rnd boxes only, I swore off the stuff.

Good? Yes, but too much money for too little difference. I have no need to shoot through car doors or windows.

[MontanaBighorn]

why not rotate it out every year to be on the safe side?i agree with this thinking. i rotate my carry ammo every january 1 so as to keep on schedule. fresh ammunition goes into my carry magazines, and last years carry ammunition is used for function and ballistic testing.

[steelshooter]

Personally I don't think it is even remotely necessary but to each his own. I do rotate my carry mags to avoid spring set every 6 months or so.

[Furyataurus]

Sobriquet, where do you get your HST's from. Check these guys out. www.ammunitiontogo.com

Have you tried Magtech Guardian Gold? I think you'd like them.

[cmdrdredd]

I find DPX on sale at Midway all the time. Gold Dots went up recently. I forget what I paid for my last box..I bought two 20 rounds boxes and it was expensive. But SD rounds aren't something I try to save money on.

BTW are you sure you will never have to shoot through a car door or window? How about your own? All modern JHP are designed to penetrate barriers and expand well whether they are passing through a barrier or not just like Corbon DPX.

Ya I know, but the mall ninja mentality of the internet's armchair tacticool weekend warriors (try saying that 5 times fast :) ) is that DPX is so uber because it can go through steel.

Big deal...HST works, and I like it. That's good enough for me :83:

[AWD]

Ya I know, but the mall ninja mentality of the internet's armchair tacticool weekend warriors (try saying that 5 times fast :) ) is that DPX is so uber because it can go through steel.

Big deal...HST works, and I like it. That's good enough for me :83:

I do not know who you are refering to, but where did you hear that DPX could go through steel? Why would anyone buy ammo based on that?

For a few bucks more a box, I figure an all-copper round would be worth it. How many boxes do you buy every year? Copper is harder than lead if I remember correctly. I try to find the best product for the job... protection of family/house.

AWD

[cmdrdredd]

I do not know who you are refering to, but where did you hear that DPX could go through steel? Why would anyone buy ammo based on that?

For a few bucks more a box, I figure an all-copper round would be worth it. How many boxes do you buy every year? Copper is harder than lead if I remember correctly. I try to find the best product for the job... protection of family/house.

AWD

4 boxes a year(50 rounds per box)... both 9mm and .45acp. If I were to use DPX it'd be $455 a year because I'd have to buy 2 boxes per 1 of the HST to equal the same round count. Even then it's 10 rounds less than I get with HST.

HST costs me only $175 by comparason. I shoot 1 box every 3 months. For 2 reasons. First I want to always remember what it feels like, and second I want to practice being accurate with my carry load. Not just target ammo.

If you search some forums for DPX people make claims that it will shoot through steel car doors etc and not fragment. They cite this as a reason to use it. For me that means nothing. Plus, i will never have to shoot through a window. Why? Simply because I'm not an LEO, and if I have barriers between an attacker and myself I am then going to be putting distance between that barrier and myself. I am not going to look for a fight. I'd rather exit the area if at all possible.

[AWD]

That's a lot of ammo. I try to run some of the defense stuff now and then, but not near that much... damn!

[rohardi]

Why would you want to use a round that will "shoot through steel"? People need to understand that over penitatration is a bad thing. if your round hits and goes through a Bad Guy and hits the little old lady behind him an kills her, your going to be in the hurt locker very quick. I would rather have a high expantion round like ranger T or the HST.

[HKCHEF]

I bought some Hornady Tap 124gr today for no reason other then to give them a try (they did not have ranger sxt). I am planning to test them this week, along with a few others for the P7M8.

My holster came in today so I need to start testing some 9mm defense rounds.

I have always used Ranger SXT for .45, I have yet to see a more devastating expansion.

[HKCHEF]

i agree with this thinking. i rotate my carry ammo every january 1 so as to keep on schedule. fresh ammunition goes into my carry magazines, and last years carry ammunition is used for function and ballistic testing.

How do you test your ammunition?

[cmdrdredd]

Why would you want to use a round that will "shoot through steel"? People need to understand that over penitatration is a bad thing. if your round hits and goes through a Bad Guy and hits the little old lady behind him an kills her, your going to be in the hurt locker very quick. I would rather have a high expantion round like ranger T or the HST.

I think it's made up quite honestly. Personally I think it's the same deal with people claiming that they have to have a FN 5.7 because it penetrates so well. I do not have any information to support that claim either. Seems to be hearsay.

[cmdrdredd]

I bought some Hornady Tap 124gr today for no reason other then to give them a try (they did not have ranger sxt). I am planning to test them this week, along with a few others for the P7M8.

My holster came in today so I need to start testing some 9mm defense rounds.

I have always used Ranger SXT for .45, I have yet to see a more devastating expansion.

Have not heard bad things about the Hornady. I know a lot of people use them because they are very accurate out of various weapons. Not as popular as some of the big names, but that doesn't mean much IMO. I don't use HST because it's popular.

[steelshooter]

You really have a habit of saying stupid things. Every time you get spanked and it seems to spur you on to say even dumber things. All the top JHP's are designed to penetrate barriers. That includes things like glass and car bodies. The problem with penetrating barriers is that JHP rounds don't often expand well afterwards or they come apart in the barriers. Ranger T and Gold Dots solve that by their bonding process and DPX solves that by being all copper. It also expands well so it does not have too much penetration. Choosing an SD round because it is cheaper is not very bright. Assuming you will have range like conditions in case you have to shoot someone is even less bright. Since I spent most of my life in the Marine Corps it is amusing that you would allude to me being a mall ninja and tacticool warrior. You have more than a few things to learn.

Ya I know, but the mall ninja mentality of the internet's armchair tacticool weekend warriors (try saying that 5 times fast :) ) is that DPX is so uber because it can go through steel.

Big deal...HST works, and I like it. That's good enough for me :83:

[cmdrdredd]

You really have a habit of saying stupid things. Every time you get spanked and it seems to spur you on to say even dumber things. All the top JHP's are designed to penetrate barriers. That includes things like glass and car bodies. The problem with penetrating barriers is that JHP rounds don't often expand well afterwards or they come apart in the barriers. Ranger T and Gold Dots solve that by their bonding process and DPX solves that by being all copper. It also expands well so it does not have too much penetration. Choosing an SD round because it is cheaper is not very bright. Assuming you will have range like conditions in case you have to shoot someone is even less bright. Since I spent most of my life in the Marine Corps it is amusing that you would allude to me being a mall ninja and tacticool warrior. You have more than a few things to learn.

You know what? You're a complete tool. Yes...YOU!

Look at the internet forums BESIDES THIS ONE...

You will see a ton of ignorant people say ignorant things. I have seen people say they use DPX because it goes through steel. That's not made up at all.

You attack me for what someone else said? You're pathetic.

Also, point to a post where I said your or ANYONE else's name in regards to my comment. I dare you...fact is you can't so just go away. Maybe you should learn to read only what is said and NOT get personal and defensive about something that wasn't directed at anyone in particular. I honestly don't care if you were LEO or military etc. The fact that you'd even make mention of it in some sort of intimidation tactic towards me is really low.

[Furyataurus]

Has anyone here tried Magtech Guardian Gold? I like their 9mm 115gr and .40 155gr. Their .40 155gr is pretty HOT! Haven't tried their 45 yet as I don't have a 45.

Hornady's regular line of 9mm and 40, 45 is the same as their TAP line except for the "black" casing and being cheaper by a buck or two than the TAP line.

Personally, I like +P rounds in my USP 9 better for SD than non +P. Has anyone tried 9mm +P+?

[cmdrdredd]

Has anyone here tried Magtech Guardian Gold? I like their 9mm 115gr and .40 155gr. Their .40 155gr is pretty HOT! Haven't tried their 45 yet as I don't have a 45.

Hornady's regular line of 9mm and 40, 45 is the same as their TAP line except for the "black" casing and being cheaper by a buck or two than the TAP line.

Personally, I like +P rounds in my USP 9 better for SD than non +P. Has anyone tried 9mm +P+?

The only +p+ i've tried was Winchester Ranger 127gr. It was hot, much hotter than the HST +p and Gold Dots. Still manageable anyway. I don't know that I'd use it just for the +p+ pressure level. I really wonder how much the pressure Winchester loads into the 127gr ammo makes a difference compared to just +p.

[harrydog]

I have several hundred rounds of HST on hand in both .45 and 9mm and last week I just picked up 200 more rounds of each. And I'll be getting more soon.
I'm beginning to stock up on ammo more so than I ever have in the past. With the elections coming up, when I look into the future I don't like what I see in terms of gun rights and ammo availability.

[Cadillac Johnson]

The only +p+ i've tried was Winchester Ranger 127gr. It was hot, much hotter than the HST +p and Gold Dots. Still manageable anyway. I don't know that I'd use it just for the +p+ pressure level. I really wonder how much the pressure Winchester loads into the 127gr ammo makes a difference compared to just +p.

The +p, +p+ Winchester stuff is on the high end of the pressure spectrum.

I've seen more than a few flattened primers from the Ranger T line.

Not saying it's a bad thing, I have the 127gr +p+ Ranger T's loaded in my 226 right now, just that Winchester LE ammo is definatly on the hot side.

[AWD]

Look at the internet forums BESIDES THIS ONE...

You will see a ton of ignorant people say ignorant things. I have seen people say they use DPX because it goes through steel. That's not made up at all.

Easy now

One of the things I like about this place is it doesn't have much bitchery. And if stupidity lives in another forum, by all means keep it there.

AWD

[cmdrdredd]

The +p, +p+ Winchester stuff is on the high end of the pressure spectrum.

I've seen more than a few flattened primers from the Ranger T line.

Not saying it's a bad thing, I have the 127gr +p+ Ranger T's loaded in my 226 right now, just that Winchester LE ammo is definatly on the hot side.

Right, but how much does the velocity gained help their bullet design? Obviously you can't buy them as a component and load them up yourself to see.

That would be interesting if it were done.

[.45ACP]

I have several hundred rounds of HST on hand in both .45 and 9mm and last week I just picked up 200 more rounds of each. And I'll be getting more soon.
I'm beginning to stock up on ammo more so than I ever have in the past. With the elections coming up, when I look into the future I don't like what I see in terms of gun rights and ammo availability.

+ 1,000,000

I decided to start now with pistol calibers and ordered 1,000 rounds of HST yesterday. I have thousands and thousands of 5.56 and 7.62 but am very lacking in quality, non-FMJ range pistol ammo. I hope that everyone doesn't catch on and make shortages widespread.