Mark 23 new or not?

[Bunker Buster]

Hi guys,

I bought this pistol from a dealer brand new in the box. Just recently I noticed on the gun case the sticker reads "USED" Mark 23, .45

Please see picture with the red arrow pointing

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll230/bunker168/Mark23.jpg


I called up the dealer and ask him what's the deal w/this? He told me it stands for U.S. edition.

My question is:

Does HK makes Mark 23 for other countries? (In short they have different edition for different countries?)

What I know this pistol is custom made for US Special forces and there are two version, one w/SAAMI spec and one for civilian.


Any Mark 23 owners have encounter this sticker? Mine is AI so its a current production. It was sold to the dealer last Feb 2008.

Any info & help would be appreciated. Thanks!

[AWD]

Did you check for wear on the chamber hood like Big Bore suggested? Another sign of a new gun is a heavy grease under the top of the slide. Field strip, the lay the dlide upside down. The grease should be apparent. Get it all off there before firing.

[Bunker Buster]

well outwardly it looks new.But of course I can never tell if it was refurbish or not.

Anyway, I do like to know if other Mark 23 owners pistol case has that sticker same as the one on mine.

I called HK they told me they don't use the word "USED" on their bar code sticker. But from what I can surmised the sticker seems to be from HK. Correct me if I am wrong.

[gemarsh]

Yap, looks like an HK sticker that they use.

Don't know about that USED being US EDition thou!

[MaD HuNGaRIaN]

That's a refurb for sure. If you really want to know that gun's history, email the S/N to HK customer support and just ask.

[SIGtrarian]

What I know this pistol is custom made for US Special forces and there are two version, one w/SAAMI spec and one for civilian.

Other way around. Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute, If that's even valid. I've never heard that.

http://www.saami.org/

[Big Bore]

If the slide had been refinished then the proof marks and the antlers would not be different colors from the slide. They would be blackened and so far, I have not read anything other than the letters "USED" that would indicate that it is anything other than a new pistol.
I have factory cases with all kinds of stickers on them and not all of them are from HK. I personally doubt that this pistol was "used."

[AGG]

Definitely not in the correct SN range!!!
My guess, refurbished. :(
Look for mismatched SN's on frame and send back, or at least reduced price. :43:
Did you purchase from Exeter Arms??????

Tony

[Big Bore]

Something has happened to several posts in this thread. My first response is no longer showing up and in one of the OPs responses he mentioned that he doctored the serial number for privacy so you cannot go by the serial number on the tag.

[Bunker Buster]

Thanks guys for all your input.

So in short there is no such thing as a "US EDition" Mark 23? Since it is only our military who have this pistol in service?

One thing I can think of is this gun definitely is not brand new in the box as described to me by the dealer. It might have been shot a few round cleaned and pass off as brand new.


I altered the Serial# to protect my privacy.

[straightgrain]

I do not see any activity that would indicate post deletions by individual users or mods. This is concerning...

[AGG]

Thanks guys for all your input.

So in short there is no such thing as a "US EDition" Mark 23? Since it is only our military who have this pistol in service?

One thing I can think of is this gun definitely is not brand new in the box as described to me by the dealer. It might have been shot a few round cleaned and pass off as brand new.


I altered the Serial# to protect my privacy.

PM me with date code and partial SN for reference range correctness. :D

Tony

[spyder1439]

i say take it back and try to get a discount on it. if not you still got a mark 23 that is probably fun as hell to shoot.

[AGG]

BB,

PMed you back!!! :D
Here is a reference label for your date code/SN range: ;)

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=101899906

Are the SN's the same on the left frame, right slide and forward under frame? :eek:

Hope this helps!

Tony

[Bunker Buster]

Hey Thanks AGG!

The original label sure look different from mine. Just disregard my PM to you about sending me a pic of your Mark 23's pistol case label.


I'm gonna call the dealer and ask for a refund.

[MaD HuNGaRIaN]

Just because it's used doesn't mean anything's wrong with it.

Call HK and ask about it, if it's still got the full warranty, etc. If it does, and you paid a fair price, just let your dealer know that expect some free ammo or some such.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

On the other hand, if you paid $2,999.99 like one of my LGS is asking for a NIB MK23, then you'd better get your money back.

[ripley16]

Do HK dealer reps carry DEMO guns around? I've never seen any HKs advertised and sold as such but many manufactureres do sell off their demo guns, usually with "factory", "test" or "display" somewhere in the description. Just a guess...

I didn't buy one of the police trade-in P7s just imported. Were the HK labels on them marked USED?

[Bunker Buster]

The store I got from is a HK Authorized dealer. It does come w/a warranty. I would think Ripley might be right that the Mark 23 could be a demo unit. Other Gun store I've seen sells HK demo unit like the USP .45 Tactical at $899. Brand new is $1059

I ordered this Mark 23 from out of state and it was shipped to my FFL dealer.

Anyway, I'll just call them up and see what they can do about it.

Thanks again for the suggestions and feedback.

[AGG]

Hey Thanks AGG!

The original label sure look different from mine. Just disregard my PM to you about sending me a pic of your Mark 23's pistol case label.


I'm gonna call the dealer and ask for a refund.

No problem- PMed you already!!! ;)
Let us know what happens- depending upon your purchase price, the seller may rebate you, or at least send you some 12-round magazines! :D

Tony

[AWD]

Is it necessary using bold font and underlining everything?

[Germanic]

If the pistol has the unfilled out warranty card, all the standard literature and accessories, matching numbers and looks like new, then I'd say you're good to go.

With a Mark 23, you'll know if it's been used or not. The black surface finish is a tell-tale sign of usage, that will show wear in astonishingly short order.

[Kenji]

I just pulled out the case that my MK23 came in. I just got it a few months ago.

The sticker with the bar code just says:

HK USP-MK23 45ACP 5.87" BL 2-12RD


Used sounds like Used.


BTW - Etched into the handle of the case:

PISTOL MARK23 .45 US

There is a Barcode with the serial number and another barcode number

[Bunker Buster]

Hey Kenji,

What's the date code of your Mark 23? Mine is AI so its 2008. Is there a way you can send me a picture of your bar code just for comparison. Just Photoshop the serial# I just want to see what's the original format of the sticker on the gun case. Please take all the pictures of the stickers from all side of the pistol case. If you can.

Email to my office address: intelexinc@yahoo.com


To Everybody:

I got this pistol for $1850++ supposedly NIB w/c is not. What do you think is a fair price for a Used Mark 23 slightly used condition.

Would love to hear

[AGG]

Is it necessary using bold font and underlining everything?

Absolutely!!! :D:D:D:D:D:D

Tony

[dcondiff]

Hey Kenji,

What's the date code of your Mark 23? Mine is AI so its 2008. Is there a way you can send me a picture of your bar code just for comparison. Just Photoshop the serial# I just want to see what's the original format of the sticker on the gun case. Please take all the pictures of the stickers from all side of the pistol case. If you can.

Email to my office address: intelexinc@yahoo.com


To Everybody:

I got this pistol for $1850++ supposedly NIB w/c is not. What do you think is a fair price for a Used Mark 23 slightly used condition.

Would love to hear

http://www.gunsamerica.com/937149740/Guns-For-Sale/Gun-Auctions/Pistols/Heckler-Koch-Pistols/Polymer-Frame/MK_23_SOCOM.htm#

^ 1500

i would say between 1500 and 1600 would be fair though.

[Kenji]

Hey Kenji,

What's the date code of your Mark 23? Mine is AI so its 2008. Is there a way you can send me a picture of your bar code just for comparison. Just Photoshop the serial# I just want to see what's the original format of the sticker on the gun case. Please take all the pictures of the stickers from all side of the pistol case. If you can.



Hi Bunker Buster,

I will try and get the info to you tonight.

[Kenji]

So as promised a pic of the label on my MK23 case and also the handle of the case.
Sorry about the quality of the case handle pic, but I got home late, the battery on the camera was almost dead and I wanted to post them tonight as promised.

BTW – My date code is AI

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z300/kenji1221/hkpost/mk23label.jpg

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z300/kenji1221/hkpost/MK23casehandle.jpg

[Bunker Buster]

Thank kenj!

The bar code on the handle are the same. But the label w/Mark 23 and 2-12 rnd mags, mine does not indicate that. So its obvious my mark 23 is not NIB. Mine just say used. As a matter of fact one of the mags is a 10 rounder. It has a 'Made in Germany" in white letter. So I send it back to have swap w/a 12 rounder.

[AGG]

BB,

What did the seller say?
Did you get a discount, additional accessories, etc.?

Tony

[G36gunner]

There is absolutely no way that the magazine would be a 10rd. Those were only for before 2004 AWB and prior. All the current production Mark23 come with the 12rd mags. Check your barrel hood as well as under the barrel (where recoil spring rubs), there should be minimal wear or no wear.

You should ask the dealer about the story behind 10rd mag. He probably swapped it and cheated you out of a 12rd mag. If he's lying about it, then you can be sure he's lying about the gun being new also.

[Bunker Buster]

I do believe this HK dealer is kinda sneaky. But I'm gonna give him a chance to own up to his mistake. When I mailed the 10 rnd mags, when he received it he said it was a 12 rnd mags,I told him no way, I got the several people to check it including the RO (range officer). The other mags are all 12 rnd.

I am still waiting for the replacement 12 rnd mags to come in before I complain.
Anyway, will keep you guys updated.

[Bunker Buster]

Finally HK customer service answered my email:

"The sticker with the word "USED" is not US edition because only Mark 23 are sold here. So there is no reason for it to be any "edition" of this pistol. They also said that the sticker is HK's indicating a used pistol."

So, I spoke to the dealer and he agreed to take it back but still maintains that it is brand new. even though the 2 magazines that comes with it one is a 12 rounder and the other a 10 rounder.

Oh well have to find a more upfront dealer.

Again many thanks to all your advices and tips.

Happy Shooting! :83:

[Tommeh]

Good work standing up for yourself. I'm sure you'll find the right one out there for you!

[anythingshiny]

good for you! tough to pull the trigger and take it back i know..but right is right..and your guy sounded wrong.

thats one thing..the shops i frequent i trust to do me right..they may not have the best price vs the internet..but if i buy it there and have an issue...quality or whatever, i know they will stand behind their service and products.

[Sobriquet]

What dealer is that? I'd like to know so I stay well away from them in the future.

How did he ship the pistol? If it was via the postal service, he committed mail fraud. The guy sounds like a scumball. I would not only have asked for a refund, but I'd have at least referred the matter to HK to see about getting his dealership status revoked. An HK dealer like that we don't need.

[HyperM3]

Finally HK customer service answered my email:

"The sticker with the word "USED" is not US edition because only Mark 23 are sold here. So there is no reason for it to be any "edition" of this pistol. They also said that the sticker is HK's indicating a used pistol."

So, I spoke to the dealer and he agreed to take it back but still maintains that it is brand new. even though the 2 magazines that comes with it one is a 12 rounder and the other a 10 rounder.

Oh well have to find a more upfront dealer.

Again many thanks to all your advices and tips.

Happy Shooting! :83:

Since it was used and the dealer agreed to take it back, you should have at least gone to the range and put a few through it. :62:

[AGG]

Finally HK customer service answered my email:

"The sticker with the word "USED" is not US edition because only Mark 23 are sold here. So there is no reason for it to be any "edition" of this pistol. They also said that the sticker is HK's indicating a used pistol."

So, I spoke to the dealer and he agreed to take it back but still maintains that it is brand new. even though the 2 magazines that comes with it one is a 12 rounder and the other a 10 rounder.

Oh well have to find a more upfront dealer.

Again many thanks to all your advices and tips.

Happy Shooting! :83:

BB,

Glad to hear that the "dealer" is taking it back!!! ;)
I hope that the deal did not cost you anything (shipping, etc.), other than your time. :rolleyes:
Per Sobriquet, who is this dealer (Exeter Arms--- oops, did I mention the name that shall not be named :D:D:D:D:D:D)?
Patience, grasshopper, you will find what you seek! :)

Tony

[ripley16]

The original post had this comment;

What I know this pistol is custom made for US Special forces and there are two version, one w/SAAMI spec and one for civilian.


Other than the finish or color, what difference was there in the MK23s offered? I thought all MK23s were designed for constant +P ammo.

[Bunker Buster]

Well I lose the FFL charges because it is a mail order plus the shipping to me and shipping it back.

It was shipped to me via UPS.

Well its a heart breaker.The pistol was a sweet shooter, but I hate the idea being offered as NIB turn out to be used. What's bad about it the dealer even lied about being as US Edition.

I told them I'm willing to keep it if he will sell it as used pistol.But he refuses so off it went yesterday.

What makes me suspect that it is a used gun before I discovered the sticker was there was a line on the barrel (on top) where the ejection port is.

The 2 mags that comes with it one has "Made in Germany" stamp in silver the other stamp same color as the magazine (black).

Then the discovery of the sticker and email from HK themselves confirms it.

[Big Bore]

Even an actual NIB Mark 23 will have a line or two on the chamber hood due to the factory firing the gun and dealers checking for clear. My safe queen which is absolutely NIB has three faint lines on the top of the chamber hood, probably one from firing and two from having the chamber checked for clear before shipping from the distributor to my dealer and from my dealer before handing it over to me.
While I agree that nobody should be sold a used gun as new (since used means there is a paper trail with a previous owner) depending on what you paid for it you may be taking a loss on shipping only to get a real NIB pistol that is not in any better shape. My second Mark 23 had a ton of chamber hood wear due to finger frigging over a two year period but it was still a NIB pistol and could ethically and legally be sold as a NIB pistol.
I do not recall reading what you paid for it but if it was less than $1800 (just caught it, $1850, but still, is it worth taking a shipping loss for what is essentially a NIB) then you got a deal even if it was used and you are taking a loss for nothing other than the vanity of saying you are the first owner. It could be the first owner of the pistol you have bought it, took it out of the store, never shot it, changed his mind (or his wife changed his mind when she saw how much he spent) only to return it the next day for a refund. In that case the pistol is new but since it was sold, a 4473 done on it, and it left the store it could no longer be sold as new, but should still get near new price since for all intent and purposes, even to a collector, it was new. Now, if you paid $2000 for it, then sure, make a fuss because you can buy a NIB for $1900 so way pay more for the pistol, new or used. But like I said, the only thing you are going to gain by returning it and buying another is a lighter wallet and the claim you are the first owner. How much that is worth only you can decide.
I am not trying to defend the dealer, far from it, because he is obviously a scum-bag trying to pass off the "used" as US Edition which is BS, but from the description of the pistol as you stated you did get a pistol that is NIB condition, albeit with a paper trail. And I understand you not wanting to let the dealer keep your money but at what cost to you? I know, it is the principle of the of the thing, but honestly, unless you are buying for a safe queen or over paid for it, the only person being harmed is you harming yourself by eating shipping costs, especially when your actual NIB Mark 23 will likely have the same lines on the hood. I've never seen a NIB Mark 23 that did not have a least one scratch line on the chamber hood because that happens when the gun is test fired. It really cannot be avoided. Now, I'm sure someone has one that does not have a firing mark, I have several USPs myself that show no sign of ever being fired, but most do and so do most Mark 23s.

[Bunker Buster]

For me it is important that the dealer be upfront w/me. That they are trustworthy especially this is a mail order. Maybe you have a different sets of principle but for me I rather lose some money than being duped into believing "US Edition" which is not true. That is the reason why I rather return it than keeping it. Especially it has been confirmed by HK themselves, that seals it.