My answer to the HK45 vs. 1911 question.

[P7M8]

Way back during the anticipation of the release of the HK45 there was a lot of talk about it being the 1911 of the 21st century. I think I stated that it would replace my 1911 if it was what the write-ups said it was. I have both the HK45 and HK45C and really like both. That being said, I now have the occasion to choose one over the other for duty use.

My Kimber Warrior won. The HK45 was a close second and would have been chosen if I hadn't found the right duty holster for a railed 1911. Just my answer to the question posed a while back on the subject... not that it means much.

[HKCHEF]

So, lack of a HK45 duty holster is how in lost?

[marlinspike]

Didn't HK abandon the concept of making the HK45 a modern 1911 midway through the project?

[P7M8]

So, lack of a HK45 duty holster is how in lost?

No, I had access to a duty rig for the HK45.


Didn't HK abandon the concept of making the HK45 a modern 1911 midway through the project?

I'm basing it on the talk and the several page article with Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn.

[Greg Bell]

You will be back!

[P7M8]

I'll admit that part of it has to do with being able for the first time to carry a 1911 in uniform.

[Escotch]

Didn't HK abandon the concept of making the HK45 a modern 1911 midway through the project?

Check out the old Shotgun news article:
http://www.vickerstactical.com/articles/ShotgunNews.pdf

[MaD HuNGaRIaN]

I was going to chose my 1911 until it kept jamming on me. So I said f-- it, sold it, and now I carry a P2000SK in 9mm. 5,200 rounds (at least) without a malfunction, and I think I made the right decision.

[steelshooter]

You replaced an HK 45 with a Kimber Warrior? Allrighty then...

My experience with the Warrior was extremely poor.

Interesting post on that pistol on the 10-8 forums.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=56857&an=0&page=4#56857

[marlinspike]

Check out the old Shotgun news article:
http://www.vickerstactical.com/articles/ShotgunNews.pdf

I just remembered what I was thinking of. It was that halfway through HK45 development the military put going to a .45 on hold.

[robert14]

You replaced an HK 45 with a Kimber Warrior? Allrighty then...

My experience with the Warrior was extremely poor.

Interesting post on that pistol on the 10-8 forums.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=56857&an=0&page=4#56857I have both the Warrior & HK45. When I bought the Warrior last year I handed it from the salesman to the gunsmith. He replaced all internals with Cylinder & Slide parts, including the hammer, sear springs, ect. A Wilson Bulletproof slide stop with detent was added. It got a Smith & Alexander mag guide added on and a FANTASTIC action job. It's trigger pull is the best I have ever had - due to their "smith".
Granted, I had a lot of work done on it from the get-go, but it has been 100% from the start and cost less than a lot of no better custom guns. I have no worries in carrying it or my HK45 for a duty pistol. (I REALLY need to get better looking grips for it...)
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn166/cian333/pistols/100_0246.jpg

[Sobriquet]

If you don't mind me asking, how much does something like that cost including the mods you did to it? It seems kind of crazy to have to do that. Imagine the reaction you'd get if you bought a Ferarri only to need to rip out the engine for something reliable.

I admit I want a 1911 someday, but they seem to be something of a labor of love. An object of passion rather than practicality. I don't fully understand how these pistols of ours cycle - and I am by no means handy enough to do some of the DIY jobs some members here do with their eyes closed.

[xskylitox]

If you don't mind me asking, how much does something like that cost including the mods you did to it? It seems kind of crazy to have to do that. Imagine the reaction you'd get if you bought a Ferarri only to need to rip out the engine for something reliable.

I admit I want a 1911 someday, but they seem to be something of a labor of love. An object of passion rather than practicality. I don't fully understand how these pistols of ours cycle - and I am by no means handy enough to do some of the DIY jobs some members here do with their eyes closed.

Get a Para-Ordnance. I had a P13 and it shot flawlessly. I put about 1000 rounds through it before I sold it for an HK. The only reason I sold it was because it was too damn heavy with 13 rounds of .45 in it for me to conceal. It kept pulling my pants down. It was a lot cheaper than other 1911s as well. I got it on sale for $650.

[UrbanKnight]

If you don't mind me asking, how much does something like that cost including the mods you did to it? It seems kind of crazy to have to do that. Imagine the reaction you'd get if you bought a Ferarri only to need to rip out the engine for something reliable.

I admit I want a 1911 someday, but they seem to be something of a labor of love. An object of passion rather than practicality. I don't fully understand how these pistols of ours cycle - and I am by no means handy enough to do some of the DIY jobs some members here do with their eyes closed.


Buying quality, regardless of the make or style tends to fix most of the issues...

Admittedly, alot of 1911 guns get so "custom" that they sacrifice reliability. When you make a gun fit so tight that if the wind blows the wrong way, it doesn't function, then you have issues.. Also, alot of 1911 guys add parts without understand what it is they want it or need it to do...

Personally, I carried HK for a long time(p7, USPc, P2k), sig prior to that.. currently, I am running a springer TRP full time... Right now, I just shoot it better than anything else in my stable...

My TRP eats everything I throw at it, and I have no issue trusting my life with it... I had the same feelings with all of my HK's as well
Every gun will have issues, but not all are manufactuerer related (unless of course your name is Vulcan.. O wait.. no I didn't...:)

If it will ever have a chance of protecting me or my family, I look at it as money well spent...

BTW_ my only "mod" to my TRP was lasergrips....

Robert, nice looking warrior, I almost got one when I got my springer... somehow I ended up with a CQB instead, but hey.. funny how I carry the springer and got rid of the CQB though...

UK

[PhilR]

I must be a little slow or something. ;) I'm not sure I can understand why somebody would pay, say $1000.00, for a gun and then have to turn around and spend a few hundred more to make it reliable.

I too would love to have another 1911 someday (just because I think they look cool), but I got rid of the ones I had because they didn't perform as I thought they should.
In my 50 years of handling guns, when I buy one I want it to go bang right out of the box, not "bang, s**t, bang bang, s**t. :)

My H&K pistols and my little ol FN go bang every time.

[Escotch]

Buying quality, regardless of the make or style tends to fix most of the issues...

Admittedly, alot of 1911 guns get so "custom" that they sacrifice reliability. When you make a gun fit so tight that if the wind blows the wrong way, it doesn't function, then you have issues.. Also, alot of 1911 guys add parts without understand what it is they want it or need it to do...

Personally, I carried HK for a long time(p7, USPc, P2k), sig prior to that.. currently, I am running a springer TRP full time... Right now, I just shoot it better than anything else in my stable...

My TRP eats everything I throw at it, and I have no issue trusting my life with it... I had the same feelings with all of my HK's as well
Every gun will have issues, but not all are manufactuerer related (unless of course your name is Vulcan.. O wait.. no I didn't...:)

If it will ever have a chance of protecting me or my family, I look at it as money well spent...

BTW_ my only "mod" to my TRP was lasergrips....

Robert, nice looking warrior, I almost got one when I got my springer... somehow I ended up with a CQB instead, but hey.. funny how I carry the springer and got rid of the CQB though...

UK

I hear you on your TRP. I ditched a Kimber TLE I had that had constant problems for a SS TRP. My Kimber was the most unreliable gun in my stable, but others have had better luck.
Once I got my CCW permit I found that I personally wanted something other than a 1911 in a .45.
I went for the HK45. Do I shoot it as well? No. But I shoot it more than well enough for a defensive pistol. And it was 1" shorter overall, a lot lighter, same width in the grip, longer sight radius, more rounds and had a rail to boot (my TRP wasn't an operator).
To me the weight was the biggest issue. I found myself carrying my 9mm XD more and more because of it. I like full size guns and now just have to get used to shooting a non-1911 trigger, which I find is the most forgiving trigger I've ever tried and actually one of Kimber's best advantages being a nice crisp, lighter trigger.

Each to their own

[robert14]

If you don't mind me asking, how much does something like that cost including the mods you did to it? It seems kind of crazy to have to do that. Imagine the reaction you'd get if you bought a Ferarri only to need to rip out the engine for something reliable.

I admit I want a 1911 someday, but they seem to be something of a labor of love. An object of passion rather than practicality. I don't fully understand how these pistols of ours cycle - and I am by no means handy enough to do some of the DIY jobs some members here do with their eyes closed.
The Warrior cost me $1050 & the parts & labor ran it up to just under $1,500.
A new Springfield TRP runs $1,525 in my area & my Warrior is now comperable to it ( bet this starts some debates) except for the frame to slide fit that the TRP has. Be around your guns long enough & you will be suprised at how much you learn. I don't consider the Warrior to be the Ferarri of the 1911 world, many are much more expensive. I kinda consider this project as turning a mid grade 1911 into a poor man's custom job.

[robert14]

Buying quality, regardless of the make or style tends to fix most of the issues...

My TRP eats everything I throw at it, and I have no issue trusting my life with it... I had the same feelings with all of my HK's as well
Every gun will have issues, but not all are manufactuerer related (unless of course your name is Vulcan.. O wait.. no I didn't...:)

If it will ever have a chance of protecting me or my family, I look at it as money well spent...

BTW_ my only "mod" to my TRP was lasergrips....

Robert, nice looking warrior, I almost got one when I got my springer... somehow I ended up with a CQB instead, but hey.. funny how I carry the springer and got rid of the CQB though...

UK
Thanks,
I guess it won't suprise you to know that I for the last few weeks I have been looking at my collection trying to decide what I can stand to part with to pick up one of the stainless TRPs. I love the fit they have on the slide to frame. Will I be getting rid of my Warrior, no way.....

[robert14]

I must be a little slow or something. ;) I'm not sure I can understand why somebody would pay, say $1000.00, for a gun and then have to turn around and spend a few hundred more to make it reliable.

I too would love to have another 1911 someday (just because I think they look cool), but I got rid of the ones I had because they didn't perform as I thought they should.
In my 50 years of handling guns, when I buy one I want it to go bang right out of the box, not "bang, s**t, bang bang, s**t. :)

My H&K pistols and my little ol FN go bang every time.
I know that it is a hit & miss with the reliability on the 1911s, mainly with the cheaper ones. Years ago I had a base Springfield that was totally unreliable. My Warrior may have been fine out of the box, I just wanted to stack the deck in ensuring that it would be, plus adding a few custom features of my preference. No pistol is 100% to every customers liking fresh out of the box. For example, I wish my HK45s had the tritium Novaks like my Warrior does, from the factory. Pick up a GOOD 1911 with a GOOD trigger job & then you will want one. I know, they are kinda a cult thing.....

[P7M8]

To me nothing feels better in my hand than a 1911. That is as far as handguns go. :D

My Warrior has been 100% reliable since I got it. It was 2005 or 2006 (very close to when they first came out), can't remember exactly. I think I recall the issue with the Warrior being later production runs, not the early ones. I noticed the reliability debate started in late 2007.

[gudel]

You will be back!

When his 1911 jams on him when the time of needs, he won't be coming back!

[UrbanKnight]

I must be a little slow or something. ;) I'm not sure I can understand why somebody would pay, say $1000.00, for a gun and then have to turn around and spend a few hundred more to make it reliable.


Apparently, Phil doesn't have any of the clones, :20:

UK

[P7M8]

When his 1911 jams on him when the time of needs, he won't be coming back!

I'm sure my wife and children would appreciate your comment.

That has to be THE most ridiculous and asinine comment I've ever come across on a gun forum. I've been on gun forums for over 8 years. I'd tell you what to go do to yourself but that word is censored on this forum and would only show up as four asterisks.

[jehu]

IMO the HK 45c solves alot of the problems of the 1911 ie: the ability to safely decock, the ability to carry cocked & locked or double action, lighter to carry, and less recoil while still very accurate and reliable for a carry piece.

[robert14]

IMO the HK 45c solves alot of the problems of the 1911 ie: the ability to safely decock, the ability to carry cocked & locked or double action, lighter to carry, and less recoil while still very accurate and reliable for a carry piece.

The HK series has one big advantage (in my humble opinion) over most 1911s, they have ramped barrels. I have a USP 45c & it's recoil is nowhere as pleasant as my Warrior or other HKs. I know, compact. Any idea how the HK 45c compares in recoil to the USP 45c. I would imagine they would be about the same. Perhaps I'm just noticing recoil more in my old age. It seems that my P30 has less recoil then my USP 9f, even though the USP has a double recoil spring.

Apoligies to the origional poster in my straying from the topic.

[PhilR]

Apparently, Phil doesn't have any of the clones, :20:

UK

Hahahaha...you're exactly right. I'll stick to the "real deals". :)

[HALO-BURN-IN]

When his 1911 jams on him when the time of needs, he won't be coming back!

WTF with this guy? Ettiquette went right out the window on that idiotic post.

[tquieng]

Love to shoot it buy will never use it for defense. Jams about 2 out of 50 round

[Escotch]

That's why I got rid of my Kimber, I COULD count on it to FTF on the last round of the mag EVERY time. Tried lots of different mags, new springs etc. It was time to just go away.

Now my TRP had some issues right out of the box, the tolerances were so tight it scraped brass off the cases and wouldn't eject spent shells. I sent it off to SA, got it back in 10 days and never had a single failure of any kind after that for the next 2000+ rounds.

I just had to get rid of it because of the size size weight and capacity issues I felt the need for CCW.

[Scooter]

1911 design is NOT an unreliable design. Why would the military have officially kept it in service for 74 years if it was unreliable?

Now there are companies that poorly assemble 1911's. That is just bad quality control.

[SIGtrarian]

I'm sure my wife and children would appreciate your comment.

That has to be THE most ridiculous and asinine comment I've ever come across on a gun forum. I've been on gun forums for over 8 years. I'd tell you what to go do to yourself but that word is censored on this forum and would only show up as four asterisks.The guy is an naive imbecilic mall ninja. You wouldn't want to lower yourself to his level anyway. Perhaps Gecko45 is back under a different nom de guerre.

http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

[Huey]

1911 design is NOT an unreliable design. Why would the military have officially kept it in service for 74 years if it was unreliable?

Now there are companies that poorly assemble 1911's. That is just bad quality control.

I think one of the things that made it such a keeper with the military is that you could disassemble 100 1911s, throw the parts in a box, shake them up, and re-assemble the pistols, ending up with 100 functioning weapons.

The German Lugers couldn't do that.

[Danner]

Nothing is quite as wicked looking as a cocked & locked 1911 in a duty holster.

[P7M8]

You wouldn't want to lower yourself to his level anyway.


What's that saying? Never get into an argument with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level then beat you with experience.

[marlinspike]

Yes, there are bad 1911s. There are also good ones. My brother's STI has done about 5000 rounds so far without a single failure of any sort.

It's like people who say target guns can't be reliable. My Sig X-5 has done about 1400 round so far without a single failure, and yet it can punch a sub 2" group at 50 yards.

[madmardigan]

Love to shoot it buy will never use it for defense. Jams about 2 out of 50 round

I bet you it's a mag related. A 1911 that is made to spec with quality parts, with good mags, and a properly tuned extractor will never let you down.

[Sobriquet]

The guy is an naive imbecilic mall ninja. You wouldn't want to lower yourself to his level anyway. Perhaps Gecko45 is back under a different nom de guerre.

http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

Oh... my... GOD. Somewhere, a bottle of psych meds sits collecting dust. I'm almost afraid that guy's actually a rent-a-cop somewhere and may actually be armed.

[dcondiff]

When his 1911 jams on him when the time of needs, he won't be coming back!

whooooa buddy...

[SIGtrarian]

What's that saying? Never get into an argument with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level then beat you with experience.Well said.

[SIGtrarian]

Oh... my... GOD. Somewhere, a bottle of psych meds sits collecting dust. I'm almost afraid that guy's actually a rent-a-cop somewhere and may actually be armed.He's out there, in more ways than one. Isn't that a comforting thought.

[GARY1911A1]

As you can tell by my On-Line Name I'm a fan of the 1911, but I do like both my HK 45 and new HK 45C I just got as a Birthday Present to myself. I do wish the HK 45s' thumb safety felt more like a 1911 as I'm getting ready to order a holster and looking at the Raven Concealment Holster I notice they offer them for cocked and locked which I assume means they block the holsters to support the thumb safety being on. It's just I don't reliably move the thumb safety off on my draw and yes I have practice it.

[steelshooter]

I had one of the first ones available when they still had actual Novak sights instead of the Kimber knockoffs. Rear sight fell off in the first 100 rounds, plunger tube in the second 100 rounds, so called Kim Pro finish flaked off if you looked at it.

To me nothing feels better in my hand than a 1911. That is as far as handguns go. :D

My Warrior has been 100% reliable since I got it. It was 2005 or 2006 (very close to when they first came out), can't remember exactly. I think I recall the issue with the Warrior being later production runs, not the early ones. I noticed the reliability debate started in late 2007.

[steelshooter]

Nope. I was issued 1911's for many years in the Marine Corps (1970's to 1990's) and that is not true. Most of them were made in the 50's and they needed, and still need, extensive fitting and very high levels of maintenance. That is why 1911 experts like Larry Vickers and Hilton Yam are saying for most people the newer polymer pistols are a better choice. LAV usually uses a Glock 19 when teaching classes and Hilton Yam says he would be just fine with M&P 45's instead of 1911's. I have used 1911's in about every situation you could imagine and would gladly use an HK 45 instead.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=72516&an=0&page=0#72516
"I am known as a 1911 guy, but if you told me my whole team was to trade in our pile of high maintenance 1911s for some 4” or 4.5” M&P 45’s, I’d hand my 1911 over in a minute. Light, low rust, ambi safety, good mag capacity, LOW maintenance, and makes big holes. What’s not to like. Did I also mention low maintenance?"


I think one of the things that made it such a keeper with the military is that you could disassemble 100 1911s, throw the parts in a box, shake them up, and re-assemble the pistols, ending up with 100 functioning weapons.

The German Lugers couldn't do that.

[MontanaBighorn]

im a 1911 fanatic and lifelong enthusiast. i dont even know how many 1911s i own total, and i enjoy shooting them more than anything. nearly 100 years later, the 1911 still stands as king.

that said, for a duty weapon there is no way i would choose any 1911 (especially a kimber, but any) over modern designs (including USPs/HK45s/glocks/M&Ps/XDs/etc.) that offer higher capacity, statistically infallable reliability, etc.

[steelshooter]

Well put.