HK45s available in CA?

[Mullhead]

My trusty dealer told me HK45s are not available for sale to the public in the great state of CA. If you live in CA, you know why this might be....the laws.

However, I have seen evidence that this might not be true, and perhaps HK45s are available.

Anyone know the truth?

[kobra]

HK 45 are legal in California on a LEO purchase. If a LEO purchases the HK45 and sold it Private transfer sale through a FFL to a civilian it would be legal.

[Sobriquet]

The HK45 does not have a magazine disconnect and is thus not eligible for the roster of handguns certified for sale by the California Department of Justice.

There are only four ways to get an HK45, legally, in California:

1. Be a LEO
2. Move into CA after purchasing the HK45.
3. Receive it as a gift via intra-familial gift transfer from a qualifying relative from out of state.
4. Purchase the gun via private party transfer (PPT) from someone who did one of the above.

You're better off over on Calguns for info on the legalities surrounding intrafamilial gift transfers in California if you think that's an option. Choose your FFL wisely because some don't understand the roster exemption for intra-familal gift transfers.

Be prepared to pay a heavy price premium if you go PPT.

[Mullhead]

Very good information fellas. Thanks.

Your point about bringing this to Calguns.net is well-taken too. Just wanted to hear what the HK Pros had to say.

[Sobriquet]

Very good information fellas. Thanks.

Your point about bringing this to Calguns.net is well-taken too. Just wanted to hear what the HK Pros had to say.

If you have any concerns or questions, feel free to ask for help. It's a tremendous gun that IS possible to own in California. It just has to be done properly and legally.

[Powder Burns]

My father's friend is a us air marshall and was assigned a USP .40 with the LEM trigger by the us government, but when he moved to California he couldn't legally possess it there and had to turn it in with the authorities. I don't know how relevant this information is but those are the facts I was told.
FWIW I got to fire that pistol, and I could barely hold respectable groups at 25 yd with it. I'm sure the LEM trigger is what made it difficult for me.

[Sobriquet]

My father's friend is a us air marshall and was assigned a USP .40 with the LEM trigger by the us government, but when he moved to California he couldn't legally possess it there and had to turn it in with the authorities. I don't know how relevant this information is but those are the facts I was told.
FWIW I got to fire that pistol, and I could barely hold respectable groups at 25 yd with it. I'm sure the LEM trigger is what made it difficult for me.

LOL. I'm glad, because I'm at a loss, too. ;) That was probably a magazine capacity issue. The USP is legal for sale in California.

[Edit:] FYI: http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/

[havajava]

I spoke with HK CS in Georgia a couple of weeks ago. He said HK did submit
HK45 testing samples to CA sometime in May 2008.

[Sobriquet]

I spoke with HK CS in Georgia a couple of weeks ago. He said HK did submit
HK45 testing samples to CA sometime in May 2008.

These rumors pop up from time to time. The fact of the matter is the HK45 was not submitted before the deadline to get grandfathered onto the Roster. It doesn't have a magazine disconnect, so it cannot now be added to the Roster.

Until Heckler & Koch releases an HK45 with a magazine disconnect, it will not be available for sale to civilians in California. Don't hold your breath.

[havajava]

Rumors from an HK CS? You talk to him. His name is Link. Maybe he's full of it or maybe installing a magazine disconnect is not a big deal.

These rumors pop up from time to time. The fact of the matter is the HK45 was not submitted before the deadline to get grandfathered onto the Roster. It doesn't have a magazine disconnect, so it cannot now be added to the Roster.

Until Heckler & Koch releases an HK45 with a magazine disconnect, it will not be available for sale to civilians in California. Don't hold your breath.

[cmdrdredd]

At least it's not as bad as a New Jersey law that is on the books that could prohibit all current models of handguns at some point in the future. The attorney general for NJ has to report every 6 months on the availability of what they call personalized guns. These are guns with any of the following...radio frequency tagging, touch memory, remote control, fingerprint reading, or magnetic encoding. Also including other unknown electronic means to prevent unauthorized use of a firearm. If the attorney general reports that one manufacturer has delivered a personalized handgun to a dealer in the US (anywhere, any state), the process begins. What will happen is a ban on ALL non-personalized handguns in the state. Even if you already own one, you wouldn't be able to transfer it in the state.

In 2010 (just a few years from now) CA law will prohibit any semi-automatic pistol that does not micro-stamp the fired cartridge. That means that after this goes into effect, no new semi-automatic pistol models will be introduced in CA. So you won't be able to buy anything new.

How much you wanna bet manufacturers won't care and will just not sell to CA.

[Sobriquet]

maybe installing a magazine disconnect is not a big deal.

http://www.roberthkeller.com/images/content/pigs_flying.jpg

[cmdrdredd]

http://www.roberthkeller.com/images/content/pigs_flying.jpg

Is that to say that it isn't happening? Cause it is...right from the latest issue of American Rifleman.

[xfilterx]

3. Receive it as a gift via intra-familial gift transfer from a qualifying relative from out of state.

So how exactly does this work? My brother lives in Colorado and I in SoCal.

[Sobriquet]

Is that to say that it isn't happening? Cause it is...right from the latest issue of American Rifleman.

Sorry, Dredd, you posted immediately before I hit post.

As for your posting, there's language in that law that says unless microstamping becomes commercially feasible and isn't in the hands of a monopoly, then the law isn't to be given effect.

It's not going to happen, either.

[Sobriquet]

So how exactly does this work? My brother lives in Colorado and I in SoCal.

Siblings are not qualified relatives. It needs to be something like a mother or father to a son or daughter.

I'm not sure about grandparents. I'd have to do research.

[cmdrdredd]

Sorry, Dredd, you posted immediately before I hit post.

As for your posting, there's language in that law that says unless microstamping becomes commercially feasible and isn't in the hands of a monopoly, then the law isn't to be given effect.

It's not going to happen, either.

The NJ one won't happen because no manufacturer is going to invest the resources into an unknown electronic technology. As you said the CA law, probably won't because again...no manufacturer will retool their process and include an unknown technology.

[Sobriquet]

The NJ one won't happen because no manufacturer is going to invest the resources into an unknown electronic technology. As you said the CA law, probably won't because again...no manufacturer will retool their process and include an unknown technology.

Technology aside, it's retarded. All someone would have to do is drop brass collected from a public range at the scene of a crime. There's also the issue of reloaded brass. Just... retarded.

[Mullhead]

At least it's not as bad as a New Jersey law that is on the books that could prohibit all current models of handguns at some point in the future. The attorney general for NJ has to report every 6 months on the availability of what they call personalized guns. These are guns with any of the following...radio frequency tagging, touch memory, remote control, fingerprint reading, or magnetic encoding. Also including other unknown electronic means to prevent unauthorized use of a firearm. If the attorney general reports that one manufacturer has delivered a personalized handgun to a dealer in the US (anywhere, any state), the process begins. What will happen is a ban on ALL non-personalized handguns in the state. Even if you already own one, you wouldn't be able to transfer it in the state.



If you watch the NRA-ILA posts, there is a bill in the CA senate as we speak that is very, very similar to this. I did my duty and wrote to my senator.....and I am very sure she read my letter and is taking it extremely seriously. Right.

[cmdrdredd]

Technology aside, it's retarded. All someone would have to do is drop brass collected from a public range at the scene of a crime. There's also the issue of reloaded brass. Just... retarded.

Well, it would be stamped to the primer no? Which you discard when you reload.

[Sobriquet]

Well, it would be stamped to the primer no? Which you discard when you reload.

The explanation of the technology I heard was it was stamped on the brass by something other than the firing pin/striker.

[MarcDW]

The stamping is outright dangerous for your freedom!
If you loose a fired case and the wrong element drops it at a crime scene, guess who has to have a very good (=expensive) attorney!!

The HK45 will not be sold in CA, since HK does not have the magazine disconnect CA requires and it would be too expensive to reengineer the HK45 just for CA.

[cmdrdredd]

The stamping is outright dangerous for your freedom!
If you loose a fired case and the wrong element drops it at a crime scene, guess who has to have a very good (=expensive) attorney!!

The HK45 will not be sold in CA, since HK does not have the magazine disconnect CA requires and it would be too expensive to reengineer the HK45 just for CA.

Unless they could be guaranteed sales from a contract that was very lucrative.

[MarcDW]

This micro stamping will bite law enforcement even more then civilians.
You will see the LE ranges become very popular with people collecting any brass they can find there!!
So now LE ranges have to be guarded day and night and/or very officer has to look for every single fired case and how it is disposed!
It should have been a warning, that even NJ did not vote this idea into law!!

[Scooter]

It will not have an impact on LE. LE is exempt from buying a handgun on the approved list, which the microstamping was added as a requirement.

[Sobriquet]

It will not have an impact on LE. LE is exempt from buying a handgun on the approved list, which the microstamping was added as a requirement.

That's the answer for most "CA gun laws stink" questions. Yes.. except for LEOs. I just wish they were more supportive of their fellow citizens' rights. It would go a long way towards helping us with a mostly apathetic public.

The only thing that shocks me is the number of gun owners in California. There's a ton of them... but they're not voting. I can't understand how Baca keeps getting elected. He ought to be indicted.

[Mullhead]

The only thing that shocks me is the number of gun owners in California. There's a ton of them... but they're not voting.

I'll second that. NOW MORE THAN EVER we need to be strong in numbers. It's frusterating as h***. :26:

[Sobriquet]

There's good stuff on the horizon. It's entirely possible you could see Heller incorporated in the 9th Circuit within the next 3 months.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=111557

[MarcDW]

How many of you are not in the NRA or other organization??
I bet you there are plenty of people right here!
Shame on you who are not!

[cmdrdredd]

How many of you are not in the NRA or other organization??
I bet you there are plenty of people right here!
Shame on you who are not!

*raises hand* I'm a member. :79:

[96GTS]

Unless they could be guaranteed sales from a contract that was very lucrative.
Only 2 agencies that are big enough to entice HK w/ a contract that would make them retool their assembly would be LAPD and LA County Sheriffs. They both employ 10,000+ sworn LEOs. They issue glocks and Berettas, respectively. Both under the $400 mark. I doubt they will get a budget adjustment approved for $800+ guns....IMO of course.

[MarcDW]

It does not have to be a PD or agency, induvidual LEO can buy them!
Now how many will really do, who knows. Can't be too many in my guess, but if it would be worth for HK to tool up for CA, they would!

[cmdrdredd]

Only 2 agencies that are big enough to entice HK w/ a contract that would make them retool their assembly would be LAPD and LA County Sheriffs. They both employ 10,000+ sworn LEOs. They issue glocks and Berettas, respectively. Both under the $400 mark. I doubt they will get a budget adjustment approved for $800+ guns....IMO of course.

Right which was my point :640:

[Sobriquet]

It does not have to be a PD or agency, induvidual LEO can buy them!
Now how many will really do, who knows. Can't be too many in my guess, but if it would be worth for HK to tool up for CA, they would!

Marc, you're missing the point entirely. If an individual LEO in CA wants to buy an HK45, he can. Today. Without HK retooling. And he won't have a duty firearm that won't fire without a mag in it.

I've never bothered looking at the law to know, but my guess is even if the entire Los Angeles Police Department or LASD wanted to issue the HK45, they wouldn't have to comply with the Roster. It's a LE purchase.

[screaming pete]

if the leo is out of the state of california can an hk45 go ffl to ffl. i'm tryoing to find out because there is one for sale on the fourms but can't get an answer from my ffl that a use

[Sobriquet]

if the leo is out of the state of california can an hk45 go ffl to ffl. i'm tryoing to find out because there is one for sale on the fourms but can't get an answer from my ffl that a use

You're asking if a non-LEO can buy from a LEO out of state? No, absolutely not. That's not an exception from the Roster.

The HK45 needs to be a private party sale within California and the person you buy it from must have been in legal possession of it.

[cmdrdredd]

You're asking if a non-LEO can buy from a LEO out of state? No, absolutely not. That's not an exception from the Roster.

The HK45 needs to be a private party sale within California and the person you buy it from must have been in legal possession of it.

so how do you legally posses it if you can't buy it in a store? :confused:

[Sobriquet]

The HK45 does not have a magazine disconnect and is thus not eligible for the roster of handguns certified for sale by the California Department of Justice.

There are only four ways to get an HK45, legally, in California:

1. Be a LEO
2. Move into CA after purchasing the HK45.
3. Receive it as a gift via intra-familial gift transfer from a qualifying relative from out of state.
4. Purchase the gun via private party transfer (PPT) from someone who did one of the above.

You're better off over on Calguns for info on the legalities surrounding intrafamilial gift transfers in California if you think that's an option. Choose your FFL wisely because some don't understand the roster exemption for intra-familal gift transfers.

Be prepared to pay a heavy price premium if you go PPT.

First page...

[cmdrdredd]

First page...

Um...well...NONE of that applies to private citizens who reside in the state today since the gift transfer was basically said by you previously to be almost impossible to do because of FFLs not knowing their own state's laws.

I'm just saying, if you live in CA you really can't buy an HK45 unless you are LEO. If you find one it's way over priced and totally not worth it.

[Sobriquet]

Um...well...NONE of that applies to private citizens who reside in the state today since the gift transfer was basically said by you previously to be almost impossible to do because of FFLs not knowing their own state's laws.

I'm just saying, if you live in CA you really can't buy an HK45 unless you are LEO. If you find one it's way over priced and totally not worth it.

It's not impossible to do, it just can be difficult. There are very few FFLs in urban areas in CA (Los Angeles in particular), and fewer still who understand the intra-familial gift exception. With the help of resources such as Calguns and FFL listings from places like Gunbroker, it can be done. It's perfectly legal - just practically difficult. FFL fees here are also outrageous. What may cost you $20 in other states will run $150-200 here. You also have to contend with the Handgun Safety Certificate. It's a joke, but a pain in the butt and it's another fee. Then you need to prove residency which means bringing paperwork or utility bills to the dealer.

Like most things in CA, it can be accomplished.. but it costs more than the rest of the country.

I don't know what the premium for HK45s is right now on the PPT market. LEOs here were gouging private citizens by selling them at $2000 in initially. Then it was $1500, then I think $1200. I think that's about where it stands now. With all the money cops make off of honest citizens, they should be eating caviar, not crepes. There's a market not just for them selling HK45s, but any non-listed handgun that would otherwise be legal for sale. It's a crock.

[cmdrdredd]

It's not impossible to do, it just can be difficult. There are very few FFLs in urban areas in CA (Los Angeles in particular), and fewer still who understand the intra-familial gift exception. With the help of resources such as Calguns and FFL listings from places like Gunbroker, it can be done. It's perfectly legal - just practically difficult. FFL fees here are also outrageous. What may cost you $20 in other states will run $150-200 here. You also have to contend with the Handgun Safety Certificate. It's a joke, but a pain in the butt and it's another fee. Then you need to prove residency which means bringing paperwork or utility bills to the dealer.

Like most things in CA, it can be accomplished.. but it costs more than the rest of the country.

I don't know what the premium for HK45s is right now on the PPT market. LEOs here were gouging private citizens by selling them at $2000 in initially. Then it was $1500, then I think $1200. I think that's about where it stands now. With all the money cops make off of honest citizens, they should be eating caviar, not crepes. There's a market not just for them selling HK45s, but any non-listed handgun that would otherwise be legal for sale. It's a crock.

And Billy the gang member can buy a full auto AK on the street for $500.

[96GTS]

And Billy the gang member can buy a full auto AK on the street for $500.
Yup, they dont have the 10 day waiting either:rolleyes:


Buy today, kill tonight. Gotta love Kali.

[Sobriquet]

And Billy the gang member can buy a full auto AK on the street for $500.

We're not happy about it, Dredd. Honest citizens are the ones paying. If I exercise my rights and open carry, you end up with massive legal bills and getting face planted by LEOs. A guy tried to mug me less than two months ago. Years ago I had a home invasion. Neither occurred in bad neighborhoods.

The day there's a change to CCW laws in California, I'll file an application. I lose a little faith in the system with every day that goes by without a federal investigation into Sheriff Baca.

[screaming pete]

You're asking if a non-LEO can buy from a LEO out of state? No, absolutely not. That's not an exception from the Roster.

The HK45 needs to be a private party sale within California and the person you buy it from must have been in legal possession of it.

thank you for your imput, i was hopeing that ppsale through a ffl out of state would work. the LEO's in california have quite an enterprise working for them. i just need to find on that will work with me. maybe one of my river cop friends might just buy an hk45 that he doesn't like:62:

[96GTS]

thank you for your imput, i was hopeing that ppsale through a ffl out of state would work. the LEO's in california have quite an enterprise working for them. i just need to find on that will work with me. maybe one of my river cop friends might just buy an hk45 that he doesn't like:62:
What do you mean by enterprise? I agree that CA has BS gun laws. Do you think that LEOs should have all the same restrictions as civilians like 10 rd magx mags? FYI, LEOs cant go in and buy all the "cool" guns (ar-15s, mp5s, etc) either. They need a letter issued by their captain. And unless you're on a special detail, they will not give you the letter b/c they will have you use a department issued gun.

[Sobriquet]

What do you mean by enterprise? I agree that CA has BS gun laws. Do you think that LEOs should have all the same restrictions as civilians like 10 rd magx mags? FYI, LEOs cant go in and buy all the "cool" guns (ar-15s, mp5s, etc) either. They need a letter issued by their captain. And unless you're on a special detail, they will not give you the letter b/c they will have you use a department issued gun.

96, I think LEOs should be subject to the exact same restrictions while off-duty as private citizens are. I also don't think a cop should carry an off-list handgun while off-duty. Maybe then the police unions and your average "I don't care much about guns" cop will help us advocate for changing the stupid gun laws in this state.

CCW's going to be legally challenged within 12 months, that much is certain. Can you think of a good reason that off duty LEOs should have bigger mags than citizens with valid CCW permits? Or are you of the opinion that California shouldn't be shall-issue?

Murder/Suicide rates by country (http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?ID=72)

Another article (http://www.gunsandammomag.com/second_amendment/rk0405/)

I'm for gun control that actually has a meaningful effect on reducing violent crime. Gun bans aren't effective - see the links above. For the same reason, if you can explain to me why a 12 round magazine is substantially more likely to be used in a violent crime, I'd be willing to listen. The problem is right now people can order magazine "kits" and assemble high cap mags themselves. Gang people don't care about violating hi-cap restrictions when there isn't a single case in which someone's been prosecuted for it in the State of California. Sure, it's been added on as an ADDITIONAL charge, but no one has EVER been charged for hi-caps alone. It's only the honest citizens that are following the law - just like it's only the honest citizens that are walking around without the best means of self-defense.

[cmdrdredd]

96, I think LEOs should be subject to the exact same restrictions while off-duty as private citizens are. I also don't think a cop should carry an off-list handgun while off-duty. Maybe then the police unions and your average "I don't care much about guns" cop will help us advocate for changing the stupid gun laws in this state.

CCW's going to be legally challenged within 12 months, that much is certain. Can you think of a good reason that off duty LEOs should have bigger mags than citizens with valid CCW permits? Or are you of the opinion that California shouldn't be shall-issue?

Murder/Suicide rates by country (http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?ID=72)

Another article (http://www.gunsandammomag.com/second_amendment/rk0405/)

I'm for gun control that actually has a meaningful effect on reducing violent crime. Gun bans aren't effective - see the links above. For the same reason, if you can explain to me why a 12 round magazine is substantially more likely to be used in a violent crime, I'd be willing to listen. The problem is right now people can order magazine "kits" and assemble high cap mags themselves. Gang people don't care about violating hi-cap restrictions when there isn't a single case in which someone's been prosecuted for it in the State of California. Sure, it's been added on as an ADDITIONAL charge, but no one has EVER been charged for hi-caps alone. It's only the honest citizens that are following the law - just like it's only the honest citizens that are walking around without the best means of self-defense.

All very true except I believe that CA, if they enable a CCW law would be "may-issue" so they could still restrict people from obtaining it. It would still be a step in the right direction and any progress is better than no progress. I think that if an LEO carries a gun off duty that is NOT his duty weapon that he should be considered a civilian and therefor subject to all the same restrictions. Furthermore, if said LEO carries a non-departmental issue gun on duty due to special permission, he should also need special permission to carry it off duty.

It is my opinion and I may be wrong here, that LEO while off duty aren't acting in a manner that is going to deter crime from happening. They aren't answering 911 calls and responding to a crime in progress so they should not need more than a civilian gets to have. What I mean to say is, while off duty the officer is acting as a civilian and should only have to draw his weapon in defense of his life or defense of another. He is not going to be getting into a gun fight while responding to a robbery or other crime in progress. If he isn't going to be expected to be in a gun fight of some kind, he should not need more than the state says the average citizen needs for defense. That being 10 rounds in the mag currently.

[Sobriquet]

All very true except I believe that CA, if they enable a CCW law would be "may-issue" so they could still restrict people from obtaining it.

We do have CCW laws, and they are may-issue. In some counties, that means they don't issue at all. Some won't even give out an application. Others like Los Angeles County (with Baca as Sheriff) only issue to celebrities and people who do special "favors" for the sheriff.

[cmdrdredd]

We do have CCW laws, and they are may-issue. In some counties, that means they don't issue at all. Some won't even give out an application. Others like Los Angeles County (with Baca as Sheriff) only issue to celebrities and people who do special "favors" for the sheriff.

I ment as a universal state-wide law. FL used to be May-issue way back in the beginning. You had to have 2 signatures from people who can attest to your character and vote confidence in your ability. Namely an LEO or Sheriff, or political leader. Then you had to provide a letter and get it notorized that explained why you need to carry a gun. Providing evidence of your working with lots of cash, living in a crime ridden neighborhood. Just traveling through to work wasn't good enough. Then you're under "consideration" and likely wouldn't receive one.

Now we're at the other end of the spectrum. You take a simple gun safety course offered by an NRA instructor or former LEO or member of the military. You don't even have to shoot at the range to prove you can hit the target. They simply waver the shoot if you state that you own and have fired a gun extensively. If someone has not handled a gun much before you just fire one shot at a target and you're done. You don't have to load the gun either. Just pick it up, shoot 1 shot and hit the paper and set it down. Of course they watch finger placement during the pickup and put down phase, but generally you can't fail. It's so easy...well you know a caveman could do it. Just fill out the paperwork, provide a passport photo taken within the last 30 days, send in your fingerprints (or do them electronically) and pay the fee.

[96GTS]

A LEO still has powers of arrest off duty. Situation depending, he is usually more likely to respond and take action than a normal citizen (ccw or not). Not because the citizen is not capable, but face it, the first time you pull a gun on someone, your mind goes into 'oh sh!t' mode. Many LEOs (not all) have been in very hostile or high stress situations. They are more likely to stay cool headed. How many CCW holders have actually pointed a gun at a real person. I'd venture to say maybe a handful...in the whole country. It is a LOT different of feeling than that paper target. When the perp realizes someone has a gun and runs to the back of the store. The normal citzs and the ccw will go outside, whereas the off duty LEO might go after him (again, cirx depending...not freakin rambo style lol). So that said, a LEO should have as much of an advantage as he can. Should CA have 10rnd mag rules? No. But they do. It would be stupid to limit the LEOs as well. I look at it this way; the LEOs here do not have it 'made'. It's everyone else that is getting screwed by the state IMO.

We do have CCW laws, and they are may-issue. In some counties, that means they don't issue at all. Some won't even give out an application. Others like Los Angeles County (with Baca as Sheriff) only issue to celebrities and people who do special "favors" for the sheriff.
That is purely BS. Those are the ppl that can afford to hire bodyguards and ballistic limos. They dont need guns. Nobody wants to assassinate Sly Stalone:rolleyes: IMO, it wont last. Look at Corona. All the CCWs he issued are being recalled (as well as his little badges that he gives to ppl like that lol).

FL is too easy. CA cannot be like that. Face it, we have more idiots here than most states. People would be accidentally shooting themselves all over the state if anyone could get a CCW. Background check, no felonies, no psych issues/meds, a common sense test, and 2 types of classes. If you can pick up a gun, load it, operate it, clear a jam, and change a mag, you only need like a 2-4 hr class (just so the state can cover their ass later on if you go nuts heh). If you cant do those simple tasks, I feel that you should have to take 40+ hrs of training. If you really want it you'd do it. But it would prevent alot of stupid ppl (who might not be bad people, but just not the brightest and probably should not have a gun) from taking it.

[96GTS]

3. Receive it as a gift via intra-familial gift transfer from a qualifying relative from out of state.
I looked at the app for this. Is there no restrictions on the type of handgun it is? Also, it doesnt ask when the gun was purchased. That seems like the easiest way to do it (if your parents are out of CA). Have them buy it, hold it for a week or so than send it to you...
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf

[Sobriquet]

A LEO still has powers of arrest off duty. Situation depending, he is usually more likely to respond and take action than a normal citizen (ccw or not). Not because the citizen is not capable, but face it, the first time you pull a gun on someone, your mind goes into 'oh sh!t' mode. Many LEOs (not all) have been in very hostile or high stress situations. They are more likely to stay cool headed. How many CCW holders have actually pointed a gun at a real person. I'd venture to say maybe a handful...in the whole country. It is a LOT different of feeling than that paper target. When the perp realizes someone has a gun and runs to the back of the store. The normal citzs and the ccw will go outside, whereas the off duty LEO might go after him (again, cirx depending...not freakin rambo style lol). So that said, a LEO should have as much of an advantage as he can. Should CA have 10rnd mag rules? No. But they do. It would be stupid to limit the LEOs as well. I look at it this way; the LEOs here do not have it 'made'. It's everyone else that is getting screwed by the state IMO.

Respectfully, I disagree on two grounds, 96. First, we don't have sufficient information to say LEOs would respond more often because no one else has guns in urban counties in California. Guys who are carrying illegally certainly aren't going to face the music and come to the defense of a fellow citizen.

More importantly, though, is civil liability - especially in California. Those who do manage to get CCWs are scared as hell of civil suits. Hell, if a bad guy invades your home and you shoot him in self-defense, a civil suit by the jerk's family is common. There needs to be civil liability shields for people who are forced to use lethal force in self-defense of themselves or another.

Do I want you to be stuck with a .22 revolver or a 10 round mag? I most certainly do not. But I think the only realistic way to change the 10-round restrictions in California is if law enforcement steps up and helps us with the legislature.

That is purely BS. Those are the ppl that can afford to hire bodyguards and ballistic limos. They dont need guns. Nobody wants to assassinate Sly Stalone:rolleyes: IMO, it wont last. Look at Corona. All the CCWs he issued are being recalled (as well as his little badges that he gives to ppl like that lol).

Carona's problem wasn't that he issued, it was that he was a crook with a habit of sexual harassment. I don't think someone's going to assassinate Stallone either, but the fact of the matter is he's walking around with a CCW while at the same time advocating for gun bans on behalf of anti-gun orgs. There's a reason I didn't go to see Rambo.

FL is too easy. CA cannot be like that. Face it, we have more idiots here than most states. People would be accidentally shooting themselves all over the state if anyone could get a CCW. Background check, no felonies, no psych issues/meds, a common sense test, and 2 types of classes. If you can pick up a gun, load it, operate it, clear a jam, and change a mag, you only need like a 2-4 hr class (just so the state can cover their ass later on if you go nuts heh). If you cant do those simple tasks, I feel that you should have to take 40+ hrs of training. If you really want it you'd do it. But it would prevent alot of stupid ppl (who might not be bad people, but just not the brightest and probably should not have a gun) from taking it.

I haven't seen any stats on crime rates since Florida went shall-issue. As I've always said on here, I'm not against licensing and reasonable restrictions. I'm against licensing that are really bans and restrictions that just serve to act as inconveniences.

I'd support a shall-issue law that required training and a skills test before issuance. Heck, we take driving tests and need to take driver's education. A gun's a potentially deadly piece of machinery just like a car, so I think that's reasonable. That said, the classes need to be affordable to the average citizen (and probably have a fee waiver for the indigent), and they can't require you hit a bullseye at 50 yards.

[96GTS]

Respectfully, I disagree on two grounds, 96. First, we don't have sufficient information to say LEOs would respond more often because no one else has guns in urban counties in California. Guys who are carrying illegally certainly aren't going to face the music and come to the defense of a fellow citizen.
Thats why I used terms like "usually", "not all", and "might". A soccor mom that has a ccw would not respond before an off duty LEO. Sorry, not gonna happen. Thats just common sense. Thats why I mentioned that its not the fact that a ccw is not capable of doing anyhting a LEO is (many are MORE qualified than some LEOs), but like I said, unless you're former military thats seen combat, MOST ccw'ers shoot at paper, not ppl. Not the same.

More importantly, though, is civil liability - especially in California. Those who do manage to get CCWs are scared as hell of civil suits. Hell, if a bad guy invades your home and you shoot him in self-defense, a civil suit by the jerk's family is common. There needs to be civil liability shields for people who are forced to use lethal force in self-defense of themselves or another.
No argument from me there.

Do I want you to be stuck with a .22 revolver or a 10 round mag? I most certainly do not. But I think the only realistic way to change the 10-round restrictions in California is if law enforcement steps up and helps us with the legislature.
Unfortunately, the problem with that is that anyone who has the power to initiate said changes is no longer a cop. Sheriff, Chief of Police, etc...they're politicans, not cops IMO. They get elected, so they give a rats ass about their employees or the people. As long as they get that next term, they're happy.


Carona's problem wasn't that he issued, it was that he was a crook with a habit of sexual harassment. I don't think someone's going to assassinate Stallone either, but the fact of the matter is he's walking around with a CCW while at the same time advocating for gun bans on behalf of anti-gun orgs. There's a reason I didn't go to see Rambo.
I'm not saying he is where he is b/c of CCW permits. But look at all the stuff thats come outta the bag since the investigation. If Baca has done the same shady deals, then it will eventually come to light and all the BS permits he issued will be recalled.

I haven't seen any stats on crime rates since Florida went shall-issue. As I've always said on here, I'm not against licensing and reasonable restrictions. I'm against licensing that are really bans and restrictions that just serve to act as inconveniences.
Agreed

I'd support a shall-issue law that required training and a skills test before issuance. Heck, we take driving tests and need to take driver's education. A gun's a potentially deadly piece of machinery just like a car, so I think that's reasonable. That said, the classes need to be affordable to the average citizen (and probably have a fee waiver for the indigent), and they can't require you hit a bullseye at 50 yards.
I'm one that feels that driving tests should be MUCH tougher in CA as well. And if you need to take the test in a foreign language, sorry, come back when you grasp just the basics. Not asking you to discuss the rise and fall of the roman empire, but you should know what ONE-WAY, YIELD, and DO NOT ENTER mean.

But like driving, CCWs should be a priviledge, not a right. The guy that talks to himself all day on the corner should NOT have a gun. I don't care if he gets mugged twice a week. His mind is not in the right place to possess a weapon. Affordable, yes. Free, no. The guy that cant drop down the $75-100 is not gonna bother to maintain his weapon. Full of pocket lint and dry as a bone, it will jam and he will be killed by the guy robbing him. Whereas if he didnt pull a gun, the suspect would've taken his wallet and ran.

Most self defense situations take place in the 3-5 yard range. So I feel proficiency, not expert marksmanship, but proficiency (not necessarily the 10 ring, but at least hit the silhouette) at 7-10 yards is completely reasonable. But if you're a society contributing, responsible, legal citizen, carry away!!

[Sobriquet]

Unfortunately, the problem with that is that anyone who has the power to initiate said changes is no longer a cop. Sheriff, Chief of Police, etc...they're politicans, not cops IMO. They get elected, so they give a rats ass about their employees or the people. As long as they get that next term, they're happy.

Individually, maybe not, but you guys have a union, right?

I'm one that feels that driving tests should be MUCH tougher in CA as well. And if you need to take the test in a foreign language, sorry, come back when you grasp just the basics. Not asking you to discuss the rise and fall of the roman empire, but you should know what ONE-WAY, YIELD, and DO NOT ENTER mean.

But like driving, CCWs should be a priviledge, not a right.

CCWs may *be* a right, not a privilege. We'll have to see where the case law comes down on that post-Heller.

Otherwise, I agree with everything you said.

[cmdrdredd]

A LEO still has powers of arrest off duty. Situation depending, he is usually more likely to respond and take action than a normal citizen (ccw or not). Not because the citizen is not capable, but face it, the first time you pull a gun on someone, your mind goes into 'oh sh!t' mode. Many LEOs (not all) have been in very hostile or high stress situations. They are more likely to stay cool headed. How many CCW holders have actually pointed a gun at a real person. I'd venture to say maybe a handful...in the whole country. It is a LOT different of feeling than that paper target. When the perp realizes someone has a gun and runs to the back of the store. The normal citzs and the ccw will go outside, whereas the off duty LEO might go after him (again, cirx depending...not freakin rambo style lol). So that said, a LEO should have as much of an advantage as he can. Should CA have 10rnd mag rules? No. But they do. It would be stupid to limit the LEOs as well. I look at it this way; the LEOs here do not have it 'made'. It's everyone else that is getting screwed by the state IMO.


That is purely BS. Those are the ppl that can afford to hire bodyguards and ballistic limos. They dont need guns. Nobody wants to assassinate Sly Stalone:rolleyes: IMO, it wont last. Look at Corona. All the CCWs he issued are being recalled (as well as his little badges that he gives to ppl like that lol).

FL is too easy. CA cannot be like that. Face it, we have more idiots here than most states. People would be accidentally shooting themselves all over the state if anyone could get a CCW. Background check, no felonies, no psych issues/meds, a common sense test, and 2 types of classes. If you can pick up a gun, load it, operate it, clear a jam, and change a mag, you only need like a 2-4 hr class (just so the state can cover their ass later on if you go nuts heh). If you cant do those simple tasks, I feel that you should have to take 40+ hrs of training. If you really want it you'd do it. But it would prevent alot of stupid ppl (who might not be bad people, but just not the brightest and probably should not have a gun) from taking it.

First off MOST LEOs are NOT gun people. They don't want to get into a situation where they draw their gun. They carry cause they have to on duty and only shoot when they have to in order to qualify. Your assumption is incorrect. I know because I talk to LEOs every day at the range and local shops. 99% of them don't even like guns at all. The ones who show up are the very slim minority.

Also, FL is thinking about the revenue for the department of agriculture who gets all the money from CCW holders renewing their license.

[cmdrdredd]

Hell, if a bad guy invades your home and you shoot him in self-defense, a civil suit by the jerk's family is common. There needs to be civil liability shields for people who are forced to use lethal force in self-defense of themselves or another.

You need castle doctrine which prohibits anyone from suing you in civil court when you are in defense of your home when the perpetator is inside your home.

[96GTS]

Individually, maybe not, but you guys have a union, right?
Yeah, but unions are not in it to initiate changes for anyone outside their group. Not just LEOs, ALL unions (ILWU, Teamsters, IBEW, etc). Eventually, what they inact MAY trickle over to the legislative side of things...but dont count on it.

If the state said LEOs can't have over 10rnds off duty, their union would fight the legislation so that LEOs can have over 10rnds, not so that everybody can have over 10rnds. Thats what unions do. They look out for their members. So bringing LEOs down to civilians rules in hopes that they will force the govt to change for everyone will not work.

I worked in a wharehouse years ago (Teamsters). They made the company give us allowance for steel toed boots. They didnt try to pass law via CA's legislative branch saying that ANYONE working in a wharehouse should get boot allowance. Just our local. See what I am saying?

CCWs may *be* a right, not a privilege. We'll have to see where the case law comes down on that post-Heller.
I really believe in the 2nd amendment. But there needs to be a huge * next to it. See my last post for exceptions that I feel should not have that right...

[cmdrdredd]

Yeah, but unions are not in it to initiate changes for anyone outside their group. Not just LEOs, ALL unions (ILWU, Teamsters, IBEW, etc). Eventually, what they inact MAY trickle over to the legislative side of things...but dont count on it.

If the state said LEOs can't have over 10rnds off duty, their union would fight the legislation so that LEOs can have over 10rnds, not so that everybody can have over 10rnds. Thats what unions do. They look out for their members. So bringing LEOs down to civilians rules in hopes that they will force the govt to change for everyone will not work.

I worked in a wharehouse years ago (Teamsters). They made the company give us allowance for steel toed boots. They didnt try to pass law via CA's legislative branch saying that ANYONE working in a wharehouse should get boot allowance. Just our local. See what I am saying?


I really believe in the 2nd amendment. But there needs to be a huge * next to it. See my last post for exceptions that I feel should not have that right...

Don't get me started on Unions. They're really un-necessary in this day and age. They're antiques and their system is backwards. Sorry, but I always vote against anything pro-union when I have the opportunity. That includes a politician who is pro-union.

[96GTS]

First off MOST LEOs are NOT gun people. They don't want to get into a situation where they draw their gun. They carry cause they have to on duty and only shoot when they have to in order to qualify. Your assumption is incorrect. I know because I talk to LEOs every day at the range and local shops. 99% of them don't even like guns at all. The ones who show up are the very slim minority.
Around here, I would go with many (not most) LEOs are not gun people. I do know a few of those. They never carry off duty and this job is just a paycheck. If you're talking to LEOs at the range and gun shops, I would say they are 'gun people':D Technically a LEO can go 30 years on the force and not once step foot in a gun store or public range. So the fact they're there is a good thing. They might not be gun enthusiasts (like us), but I wouldn't write them off as not gun people....

Also, FL is thinking about the revenue for the department of agriculture who gets all the money from CCW holders renewing their license.
That is a great idea. I'd rather see CCW money go into any source other than some capital hill pencil pusher's pocket;)

[96GTS]

Don't get me started on Unions. They're really un-necessary in this day and age. They're antiques and their system is backwards. Sorry, but I always vote against anything pro-union when I have the opportunity. That includes a politician who is pro-union.
Not here to debate whether unions are needed. I will say this, some are, some are not. Grocery cashiers/baggers union...not needed!


Then again, we've gone so far off course, might as well throw some more topics in this thread lol:40:

[cmdrdredd]

Around here, I would go with many LEOs are not gun people. I do know a few of those. They never carry off duty and this job is just a paycheck. If you're talking to LEOs at the range and gun shops, I would say they are 'gun people':D Technically a LEO can go 30 years on the force and not once step foot in a gun store or public range. So the fact they're there is a good thing. They might not be gun enthusiasts (like us), but I wouldn't right them off as not gun people....


That is a great idea. I'd rather see CCW money go into any source other than some capital hill pencil pusher's pocket;)

Well, I mean the people I talk to are gun ppl, but they admit that 99% of the force would rather not have a gun at all but it's a tool of the trade so they deal with it. As for the dept of agriculture and consumer services in FL, they take all the money that comes in from CCW holders. There's currently over 500,000 CCW holders in FL and the number is growing. Lets assume that everyone renews every 5 years for their license, not including any new licensees. You have $37,500,000 in revenue every 5 years from the $75 fee. That's a good amount of money by any standard.

[cmdrdredd]

Not here to debate whether unions are needed. I will say this, some are, some are not. Grocery cashiers/baggers union...not needed!


Then again, we've gone so far off course, might as well throw some more topics in this thread lol:40:

I don't agree because every union I've heard of seems to relish in the fact that the longer you're there the less you do for the same pay(or more) and benefits. It also doesn't fit in eith the American system of business so much these days in that a business needs to make money. If they are forced to pay and guarantee medical benefits to retirees and whatnot the company generally speaking, is losing money.

I've said my piece.../end

[Sobriquet]

Then again, we've gone so far off course, might as well throw some more topics in this thread lol:40:

I really like the color blue. Anyone else? ;) Ok, thread over. lol

[cmdrdredd]

I really like the color blue. Anyone else? ;) Ok, thread over. lol

Black like my guns.

[96GTS]

So back on topic...Sobriquet which method did you use to aqquire your HK45?


And is $1K out the door (gun/tax/dros) w/ 3 mags a good price for a brand new HK45?

[Sobriquet]

Intra-familial gift transfer. It was my law school graduation gift.

About the price... that sounds extremely reasonable to me if it includes the DroS and the extra mag. That alone, as you know, runs $100-200 around LA.

[Mullhead]

Wow, this was awesome. Around the A2 world and back......and now I know how I can get an HK45c....which was the goal. Thanks fellas.

[Mullhead]

Intra-familial gift transfer. It was my law school graduation gift.


So Sobriquet, just for completeness of this thread (and so I know what to do), could you share the actual procedure for an intra-familial transfer? I have the form downloaded, but it says nothing in the matter of whether one is legally allowed to take ownership of the HK45 gift from his or her (father, let's say) *before* sending the CA form in, or if the form needs to be sent in and accepted before the recipient can take ownership. Also, does the HK45 need to be transferred to an FFL in CA (I assume yes, per federal laws)?

If you don't mind, could you walk us through the basics of the process? Thanks a bunch.