P30 SD ammo

[mourneblade]

What do you guys here use for SD ammo in your P30s? I was wondering if the sub 4 inch barrel would point to using +p ammo and avoiding 147gr. ammo. I've read that shorter barrel guns need higher velocity ammo to achieve hollow point expansion. Thanks...

[HKCHEF]

Ranger SXT, If you remember the Black talon ammunition dubbed cop killers some time back.

Some people joke that SXT stands for Same Xact Thing. The ammo is identical to the black talon minus color.

It has great expansion, and I imagine the talons would be devestating to the poor soul who has to feel them.

They won't go threw bullet proof vest (as reported) and the only documented complaint I know of was from hospital ER's, they were afraid that because of how sharp the talons were that there doctors would be cut. Thou no report of that happening was ever made.

I did a test shown in this pic with my HK45 using...

Winchester Ranger SXT
Cor-Bon Pwr ball
and Hydrashock
The Ranger penetrated the deepest followed by Corbon then Hydrashock

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg106/Sukimasterchef/DSC_0215.jpg

The Page number is how deep the rounds penetrated, the books are over 1000 pages and the shots were made on my knee from 10 feet. (most cases of SD shootings are no further then 7 feet.)

[H&K 4 LIFE]

HKCHEF what bullet weights were you using?

The P30's barrel isn't exactly "short", I think the bullet weight issue matters alot more with sub-compact pistols then the compact P30. That being said, I would stick with 115gr. or 124gr. for the P30 and save the 147gr. for a carbine or pistol with a can. :)

[HKCHEF]

HKCHEF what bullet weights were you using?

The P30's barrel isn't exactly "short", I think the bullet weight issue matters alot more with sub-compact pistols then the compact P30. That being said, I would stick with 115gr. or 124gr. for the P30 and save the 147gr. for a carbine or pistol with a can. :)

SXT 230gr
PWR 165gr
Hydra 185gr
I believe these are right I am going off memory.

[H&K 4 LIFE]

Gotcha. Missed the part where you said you used the HK45. Doe'! :D

The SXT would then be the heaviest and still penetrated the deepest as well... very interesting.

[mourneblade]

HKCHEF what bullet weights were you using?

The P30's barrel isn't exactly "short", I think the bullet weight issue matters alot more with sub-compact pistols then the compact P30. That being said, I would stick with 115gr. or 124gr. for the P30 and save the 147gr. for a carbine or pistol with a can. :)

So that would rule out SXTs since I can only find them in 147gr. size. My original idea was to use Federal HSTs. If I got them in 124gr. would I need +p? If the recoil was less or the same as a 230gr 45acp that would be no problem for me.

[HKCHEF]

Gotcha. Missed the part where you said you used the HK45. Doe'! :D

The SXT would then be the heaviest and still penetrated the deepest as well... very interesting.

I actually know very little about how to test defense rounds. I know ballistic gel would be ideal. So if the books are good for these kinds of test I would be happy to do more if they are useful, since I have about 30 more legal malpractice books.:D

If you or anyone else has any suggestions on the best way to test SD ammo feel free to lay it on me. The only test I do is rapid fire to ensure good feeding and shooting the books to look for penetration. And also a paper target at 10 to 15 feet to gage accuracy.

I have not tested any 9mm, so I will try to some time in the future.

[H&K 4 LIFE]

You don't "need" +P. Go with what you shoot the most accurate. Suffice to say the standard 124gr. will work fine.

[H&K 4 LIFE]

I actually know very little about how to test defense rounds. I know ballistic gel would be ideal. So if the books are good for these kinds of test I would be happy to do more if they are useful, since I have about 30 more legal malpractice books.:D

If you or anyone else has any suggestions on the best way to test SD ammo feel free to lay it on me. The only test I do is rapid fire to ensure good feeding and shooting the books to look for penetration. And also a paper target at 10 to 15 feet to gage accuracy.

I have not tested any 9mm, so I will try to some time in the future.

The same gun was used and the books were all the same, so your test is perfectly valid. Whether the books closely represent human flesh is questionable, but we know the variables were all the same and the SXT's did penetrate furthur.

Looking forward to P30 vs. P30L. Then we will see if all this concern over a little bit more/less barrel length actually matters all that much. :)

[Sobriquet]

Federal HST +P 124gr. (http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php?pName=50rds-9mm-federal-le-tactical-hst-124gr-p-hp-ammo)

Technical data here. (http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/pistol/tacticalhst.aspx)

[CyberH&K]

I'm using Hydrashok 147 for my P30.

[Cadillac Johnson]

The SXT's are actualy a newer improved version of the older black talons, and then without the Lubalox coating.

For 9mm the most popular SXT is the 127gr +p+

As far as the test, the SXT will penetrate the deepest because it's the heaviest. Heavier bullets will penetrate deeper than lighter bullets. Generally.

Any of the quality SD stuff will work fine. HST's, SXT's, Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, TAP's, DPX's. I'd be fine with any of them.

Whatever you can get consistantly and shoots and feeds well is a good choice.

A decent way to test is to soak phone books in water over night. Tape them tight before putting them in the water so they dont expand too much. Let them drip dry for a while before shooting. You want them wet all the way through, but not completely soaked either.

It's not gel, but it works pretty well.

[cmdrdredd]

Federal HST 147gr +p

[HKCHEF]

A decent way to test is to soak phone books in water over night. Tape them tight before putting them in the water so they dont expand too much. Let them drip dry for a while before shooting. You want them wet all the way through, but not completely soaked either.

It's not gel, but it works pretty well.

Thats sounds doable.

[steelshooter]

The three loads few people will argue with are Gold Dots, Federal HST, and Winchester Ranger T. SXT is a distant second to Ranger T when it comes to Winchester SD rounds.

[cmdrdredd]

The three loads few people will argue with are Gold Dots, Federal HST, and Winchester Ranger T. SXT is a distant second to Ranger T when it comes to Winchester SD rounds.

Yes I almost forgot that. SXT is not the same as the Ranger T line (T meanng Talon).

I like HST because 1) it's cheaper than everything else 2) it expands larger than everything else and 3) in the tests I have read there hasn't been a bad thing to say about them and quite a few large LEO agencies are issuing it.

[Cadillac Johnson]

The three loads few people will argue with are Gold Dots, Federal HST, and Winchester Ranger T. SXT is a distant second to Ranger T when it comes to Winchester SD rounds.

Yes I almost forgot that. SXT is not the same as the Ranger T line (T meanng Talon).

Ranger T's ARE SXT's. Same thing.

Ranger T is the line of ammo, 'T' designates that is a LE only round.

SXT is name of the bullet itself.

IE. Ranger T's are loaded with SXT bullets.

[HKCHEF]

The three loads few people will argue with are Gold Dots, Federal HST, and Winchester Ranger T. SXT is a distant second to Ranger T when it comes to Winchester SD rounds.

I don't think the T series is available yet in 9mm.

[HKCHEF]

Ranger T's ARE SXT's. Same thing.

Ranger T is the line of ammo, 'T' designates that is a LE only round.

SXT is name of the bullet itself.

I read on defensive carry that the T is the new line of redesigned sxt's.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/50420-winchester-ranger-t.html

page 2

[steelshooter]

That is incorrect.
The Ranger T uses a modified SXT bullet and the entire round + bullet is different from Winchester SXT.
Both Ranger T and SXT fall under the Winchester premium handgun ammunition line.

Ranger T's ARE SXT's. Same thing.

Ranger T is the line of ammo, 'T' designates that is a LE only round.

SXT is name of the bullet itself.

IE. Ranger T's are loaded with SXT bullets.

[HKCHEF]

That is incorrect.
The Ranger T uses a modified SXT bullet and the entire round + bullet is different from Winchester SXT.
Both Ranger T and SXT fall under the Winchester premium handgun ammunition line.

Ok, what is the difference.

[steelshooter]

It has been out in 9mm for some time now. There have been several versions of the Ranger T round, all had 9mm of various sizes.

I don't think the T series is available yet in 9mm.

[steelshooter]

The case, propellant and bullet are different so pretty much everything. The Ranger T bullet, especially the latest version, have better expansion and hold together better for better barrier penetration than the standard SXT.

Ok, what is the difference.

[Cadillac Johnson]

That is incorrect.
The Ranger T uses a modified SXT bullet and the entire round + bullet is different from Winchester SXT.
Both Ranger T and SXT fall under the Winchester premium handgun ammunition line.

Isn't that what I said? Ranger T series uses SXT bullet?

I was talking about the Ranger T series, not the civilian SXT's.

There's a LE version and civie version of the SXT. Different bullets, both called SXT.

If it's in a Ranger T box, its the good stuff, whether it says SXT or not. The 2008 production so far, all had SXT on the box.

Winchester started putting SXT on the Ranger T boxes, however the bullet is different than the SXT in the black box sold to civies. I think it's a black box at least.

To avoid confusion, Winchester is now removing the 'SXT' designation from the Ranger T's boxes. Which are the 'new' version.

[steelshooter]

There is alo a 147gr SXT and T series both of which provide superior, in some cases too much penetration to the 127gr. The phone book "test" is ridiculous as it is not consistent. That is also true of gel alone. Gel gives an indication of how a bullet might perform in a consistent medium like gel. But the human body is anything but consistent with various layers of skin, fat, fluid, different organ densities, cartilage, and bone. The best studies combine gel with morgue studies. Any of the top three mentioned here have been tested and used extensively in real world situations so shooting a wet phonebook is pretty pointless. Fun, but pointless.


The SXT's are actualy a newer improved version of the older black talons, and then without the Lubalox coating.

For 9mm the most popular SXT is the 127gr +p+

As far as the test, the SXT will penetrate the deepest because it's the heaviest. Heavier bullets will penetrate deeper than lighter bullets. Generally.

Any of the quality SD stuff will work fine. HST's, SXT's, Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, TAP's, DPX's. I'd be fine with any of them.

Whatever you can get consistantly and shoots and feeds well is a good choice.

A decent way to test is to soak phone books in water over night. Tape them tight before putting them in the water so they dont expand too much. Let them drip dry for a while before shooting. You want them wet all the way through, but not completely soaked either.

It's not gel, but it works pretty well.

[steelshooter]

I actually have to quote back to you what you said?
"Ranger T's ARE SXT's. Same thing."
Read what I said. They are not the same thing. Different bullet, different case, different propellant.

T is NOT the LE version of SXT.

There is a new version of the Ranger T, different from the old T, which the FBI chose recently as their pistol round. A major reason for the revision is to penetrate barriers such as auto glass. The old Ranger T tended to come apart in barriers.

Go here for a listing and sales of the various Ranger T rounds.
http://mahsupplies.net/

Supreme SXT is not in the same class as Ranger T. Winchester 's rules are that Ranger T is only supposed to be sold to LEO but they don't require proof and they know it is sold to just about anybody. I'm guessing that is because of all the hoopla over the Black Talon which actually weren't much better than anything else at the time but the "Talons" were oh so cool and lots of urban legend sprung up around them.


Isn't that what I said? Ranger T series uses SXT bullet?

I was talking about the Ranger T series, not the civilian SXT's.

There's a LE version and civie version of the SXT. Different bullets, both called SXT.

If it's in a Ranger T box, its the good stuff, whether it says SXT or not. The 2008 production so far, all had SXT on the box.

Winchester started putting SXT on the Ranger T boxes, however the bullet is different than the SXT in the black box sold to civies. I think it's a black box at least.

To avoid confusion, Winchester is now removing the 'SXT' designation from the Ranger T's boxes. Which are the 'new' version.

[Cadillac Johnson]

There is alo a 147gr SXT and T series both of which provide superior, in some cases too much penetration to the 127gr. The phone book "test" is ridiculous as it is not consistent. That is also true of gel alone. Gel gives an indication of how a bullet might perform in a consistent medium like gel. But the human body is anything but consistent with various layers of skin, fat, fluid, different organ densities, cartilage, and bone. The best studies combine gel with morgue studies. Any of the top three mentioned here have been tested and used extensively in real world situations so shooting a wet phonebook is pretty pointless. Fun, but pointless.

No ****? Phonebooks are different than humans? When did I say phonebooks resemble a living, breathing human?

What do gel tests and phonebook tests and box-o-truth tests show?

How one bullet compares with another bullet using the same medium.

[Cadillac Johnson]

I actually have to quote back to you what you said?
"Ranger T's ARE SXT's. Same thing."
Read what I said. They are not the same thing. Different bullet, different case, different propellant.

T is NOT the LE version of SXT.

There is a new version of the Ranger T, different from the old T, which the FBI chose recently as their pistol round. A major reason for the revision is to penetrate barriers such as auto glass. The old Ranger T tended to come apart in barriers.

Go here for a listing and sales of the various Ranger T rounds.
http://mahsupplies.net/

Supreme SXT is not in the same class as Ranger T. Winchester 's rules are that Ranger T is only supposed to be sold to LEO but they don't require proof and they know it is sold to just about anybody. I'm guessing that is because of all the hoopla over the Black Talon which actually weren't much better than anything else at the time but the "Talons" were oh so cool and lots of urban legend sprung up around them.


Please re-read what I wrote, you're confused

Which is why I suspect Winchester is dropping the 'SXT' name from the newer version of the 'T' series.

[givo08]

Ranger SXT is the "black talon" without the talons. Actually ranger T is the stuff that's the same as the black talons.

[Cadillac Johnson]

I actually have to quote back to you what you said?
"Ranger T's ARE SXT's. Same thing."
Read what I said. They are not the same thing. Different bullet, different case, different propellant.

T is NOT the LE version of SXT.

There is a new version of the Ranger T, different from the old T, which the FBI chose recently as their pistol round. A major reason for the revision is to penetrate barriers such as auto glass. The old Ranger T tended to come apart in barriers.

Go here for a listing and sales of the various Ranger T rounds.
http://mahsupplies.net/

Supreme SXT is not in the same class as Ranger T. Winchester 's rules are that Ranger T is only supposed to be sold to LEO but they don't require proof and they know it is sold to just about anybody. I'm guessing that is because of all the hoopla over the Black Talon which actually weren't much better than anything else at the time but the "Talons" were oh so cool and lots of urban legend sprung up around them.


Let me explain a little better. We're saying the same thing.

When I said "Ranger T's are SXT's" I wasn't refering to the Supreme SXT bullet.

Winchester added the SXT name to the Ranger T line, even though the bullet was the same as it had been prior to the SXT name being added. The Ranger T SXT is not the same bullet as the Supreme SXT.

So if you had a box of Ranger T's, that said SXT on it, it would be the same as a box of Ranger T's that didn't say SXT on it. The only difference would be when that box of ammo was made.

Because this is obviously confusing for people, Winchester is dropping the SXT name from the newer version of Ranger T's.

The new FBI load, as far as I know, is only available in .40 as of right now, and I havent seen any tests with it so far.

Winchester doesn't require proof, but they do require a LE letter head on the order for any 'T' series ammo.

The current, not the brand new FBI load, Ranger T line, whether the box says SXT or not, is an improvement over the original Black Talon bullet with the Lubalox (sp?) coating. The new FBI load is an improvement over the current 'T' series.

[steelshooter]

I didn't say you did. I'm saying why phonebook "tests" are nothing more than entertainment. By way of illustrating that I said what is a reasonable test. Consistent as in repeatable. It is also not a consistent medium as far as testing is concerned. Even if it was, it would only be of value if you are concerned about being attacked by marauding phonebooks.


No ****? Phonebooks are different than humans? When did I say phonebooks resemble a living, breathing human?

What do gel tests and phonebook tests and box-o-truth tests show?

How one bullet compares with another bullet using the same medium.

[steelshooter]

Oh boy....

Reading is fundamental.

Google is your friend.

Ranger SXT is the "black talon" without the talons. Actually ranger T is the stuff that's the same as the black talons.

[marlinspike]

Isn't the lower degree of penetration of hydrashocks desirable? Lower chance of over-penetration and more likely to reach full expansion within the body, no?

[Cadillac Johnson]

I didn't say you did. I'm saying why phonebook "tests" are nothing more than entertainment. By way of illustrating that I said what is a reasonable test. Consistent as in repeatable. It is also not a consistent medium as far as testing is concerned. Even if it was, it would only be of value if you are concerned about being attacked by marauding phonebooks.

Well sure, but then gel isn't repeatable either. Every block of gel is going to be a little different, but when you can fire different bullets into the same block out of the same gun, it at least gives you an idea how it might perform in a shooting.

Neither is perfect, but neither is completely useless at the same time. Wet phonebooks are easier for people to do some testing on their own compared to blocks of gelatin.

If bullet A penetrates deeper and expands larger than bullet B when fired into the same medium, from the same gun, it's likely to do the same when fired into a BG.

[cmdrdredd]

Isn't the lower degree of penetration of hydrashocks desirable? Lower chance of over-penetration and more likely to reach full expansion within the body, no?

No because if it doesn't penetrate to about 12" then if you happen to be attacked by a big guy, you'll miss the vitals and might not put a stop to him.

[cmdrdredd]

Ranger SXT is the "black talon" without the talons. Actually ranger T is the stuff that's the same as the black talons.

On Winchester.com (the LE site) there is no mention of SXT at all. It never says SXT once anywhere. They offer 3 bullet types. One called Winchester Ranger and the other called Ranger "T" and one called Ranger Bonded.

I don't know where SXT came from cause it's not there.

[Cadillac Johnson]

Ranger T SXT's

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z63/Frenchy4g63/13627_pd249882.jpg

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z63/Frenchy4g63/13627_pd249893.jpg

Winchester added, then removed 'SXT', from the boxes of the Ranger T line of ammo.

It was all the same ammo though. Which is what I was trying to say..

This is the link Steel Shooter posted; http://mahsupplies.net/ look through the Ranger line. Some descriptions say SXT in it, some of them dont, but it's the same ammo. On pg3 there's the 127gr +p+ 9mm loading, no mention of SXT anywhere, but if you've seen a box in person, it says SXT on it.

I dont know what Winchester is calling the brand new stuff, but they aren't putting SXT on the boxes anymore, because, as this thread proved, it was really confusing for people.

*edit*

This is a post from 'Hotpig' over on SigForum. He is a Ranger dealer and this is what he had to say on the topic in a previous thread. Hopefully it will clear everything up.

Ranger ammo clarification.

Ranger SXT was discontinued in 1998. You will recognize it because it has the black lubalux bullet.

First production of it was in 20 round white boxes marked Ranger SXT Controlled Expansion. The bullet was black with a nickel case.

Later it was put in a 50 round box and the nickel case was replaced with a brass case.

This ammo all had stock numbers that included SXT in it. Example RA9SXT,and RA45SXT.

Ranger T-Series only comes in 50 round boxes. They have a nickel case with a brass colored bullet. The box has SXT on it still because T-Series is a SXT design.

2008 second generation Enhanced T-Series boxes do not have SXT on them. Maybe this will end the confusion. Stock numbers for the Enhanced T ammo will remain the same as the old. RA9T, RA45T etc.

While I'm at it many people only think there is one Ranger ammo. It is a whole product line with many different bullets ranging from the T Series, Frangible,standard jhp, and the new FBI load the Bonded jhp.

As an example right now there are nine current different 9mm hollow point loads.

[cmdrdredd]

Ok well, I don't use Winchester PD ammo. I prefer Federal so it matters little to me. I was just wondering why it never said SXT on the site when someone alluded that SXT was current production.

[HKCHEF]

I am wondering why we can't call winchester and sort this hole issue out. I would like to get a hold of some of the new stuff.

[cmdrdredd]

I am wondering why we can't call winchester and sort this hole issue out. I would like to get a hold of some of the new stuff.

They'll both leave a nice hole in the target won't they? :43:

But we all knew what you meant..."whole issue" ;)

[dcondiff]

No because if it doesn't penetrate to about 12" then if you happen to be attacked by a big guy, you'll miss the vitals and might not put a stop to him.


are you serious guy?

[marlinspike]

are you serious guy?

Actually, the FBI does spec that ammo should penetrate 12" of ballistic gelatin (so I'm guessng he meant 12" of ballistic gelatin).

[cmdrdredd]

are you serious guy?

Very serious...do you even read any of the information on wound factors and ballistics? You think every shot is going to be a headshot? Every shot is going to be right to the heart and miss bone? That you'll never have a shot where you're moving and the BG is moving and you hit him at an angle and need over 12" to reach the vitals? It's all real world possibilities.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

Read that and then you'll see why penetration means so much. It explains why Hydrashock ammo is considered inadequate and offers choices that pass all the tests.

[dcondiff]

while i obviously know penetration is important, its not important because one day you may have to shoot a super fat ass who has 12" of fat surrounding him.

well placed shots to the chest (lungs/spine/heart) rarely need to penetrate 12"

[cmdrdredd]

If that's what you got from my post then you are taking everything you read too literally.