Would you fire this surplus ammo through your PTR?

[raising_arizona]

I just bought this battle pack from Midway, and failed to notice that the bullet is steel jacketed. (Doh! :rolleyes:)

Would you fire this through your semi auto? Specifically, a PTR 91 that is not chrome lined?


7.62 NATO FMJBT, cupro-nickel clad steel jacket, lead core, smooth crimp cannelure from Metallwerk Elisenhütte G.m.b.H., Nassau, Lahn, Germany. Lot imported for the US commercial market, available by Midway USA, June, 2008. Brass case, brass percussion berdan primer, green primer sealant, 3-stab primer crimp. Headstamp (NATO symbol) "MEN 94B0008" (Headstamp includes lot number, indicating February 1994 production.) Bullet design is AB22 whose terminal ballistic performance in tissue is unique from most other 7.62 NATO FMJBT Ball bullet designs. Rather than pitching up 90 degrees, then pitching backwards another 90 degrees and exiting backwards, AB22 pitches up 90 degrees then breaks into two parts at the cannelure, similar in performance to M193 5.56 NATO Ball. Packaged 20 rounds to a tan cardboard box with white label and black printing "AB22 20 Patrone 7.62mm DM111 Weichkern LOS MEN94B0008." Packages had been opened & resealed with thin white paper label with blue printing "MMunDp6." 10 cardboard boxes to an olive drab plastic "battle pack," with white label & same markings. Battle Packs have been opened and resealed with olive drab duct tape.

http://www.pbase.com/cdnxpat/image/101241844.jpg

[eric10mm]

With the "cupro-nickel" cladding over the steel jacket, you will not be haivng steel-to-steel contact within your barrel. The cupro-nickel cladding (coating) is softer than steel for just this reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupro-nickel

[Shattered Mind]

Sure! I'd shoot it all day in anything, but mostly full auto stuff. Go ahead, it's safe to use.

[retrodog]

No, this stuff has a bad history of causing corrosion in barrels with low titanium levels. It would render your rifle wothless in 20-30 years of regular shooting. Go ahead and send it to me and I'll take care of getting rid of it for you.

[madmike]

Yes I have shot it and its quite accurate to.However just out of routine I would clean the barrel after each range session

[kuma138]

if you look at PTRs ammo recommendations you'll see this exact ammo is not recommended. you might be screwed if you have problems.

[Shattered Mind]

Like, how would they ever know? Does JLD/PTR have some sort of sniffin' machine?

C'mon.... get real.

[raising_arizona]

if you look at PTRs ammo recommendations you'll see this exact ammo is not recommended. you might be screwed if you have problems.

I had some serious problems with tar-sealed ammo like Winchester white box. Gummed it up completely after about 4-5 rounds. They sent me a list of recommended ammo, one of which was Federal American Eagle, which works great. I can't find the email, or the link on their site for ammo recommendations.

Is there a link?

[Lon Moer]

Its a battle rifle.

[AviatorDave]

Like, how would they ever know? Does JLD/PTR have some sort of sniffin' machine?

C'mon.... get real.

Oh yeah, they have a gas chromatography mass spectrometer. They run an analysis of anything that comes in for warranty work. Sure, it cost them $50,000, but they sure bust a lot of people using ammo on the banned list.

[kwesi]

Like, how would they ever know? Does JLD/PTR have some sort of sniffin' machine?

C'mon.... get real.

Shattered: priceless! Sure did miss your comments during your recent trip!

[kuma138]

i'm sure when they get a gun in for repair work they have to find out what kind of ammo the guys using. they've been making guns for what 7 or 8 years now. you don't think they've gotten any feedback on what ammo is good and what ammo is bad by now. come on now. if they told you not to use South African because it has a tar sealant in it and will screw up your chamber and your barrel and you go ahead and use it. now you call customer service and tell them you have a problem and the guy at PTR asks you what ammo your using, what are you gonna tell him. Go ahead, I'll take their word for it. But apperently Shattered Mind knows everything about everything though.:1900000:

[kuma138]

customer feedback is probably the strongest thing a company could ever have.

[Oakley Davies]

The strongest most important things a company can have is excellent QC and customer service.
They need to understand that there is a lot different ammo out there and a person may try something off or on the "list".
Sure tar sealed ammo will gum up the works and overpressured reloads will damage your rifle.
The ammo in question is made in Germany to NATO specs, how could you get any better?
As far as shattered mind he's probably fired more ammo in the last year than I ever will. I value all the wisdom he imparts to this great forum.
More importantly I wonder if I need service from PTR-91 what will they think of all the modifications I have made and will make?
-Oakley Davies

[kzguns]

well is'nt surplus ammo leftover/outdated military supply? Aren't these weapons built org. for the the military?
yes
yes
fire away:)

[kuma138]

i agree, you need to have good customer service. but if you're shooting ammo they're telling you not to use theyre probably gonna bust your balls a little bit when you call in with problems.

[kwesi]

First of all shattered has probably fired more in the last 30 days than I get down range the rest of the year. It is valuable to rely on the wisdom of those that have ten's of thousands of rounds under their belts!

Keep in mind that I was told by one manufacturer not to use the wolf because the lacquer will gum up the trunion. He forgot to mention that all the newer production wolf no longer has that coating.

I'm glad that I found the German "DAG" head stamp - can't wait to remove the f/s next time!

Sounds like you will feel better not using this ammo, go with the Lithuanian.

[raising_arizona]

Isn't PTR's ammo recommendation more of a "this will work better in your rifle" comment, rather than a "this will blow up your rifle, and you will have to wear an eye patch and kids will taunt you" kind of comment? The reason I ask is because the Winchester was gumming up my rifle, and they said they don't recommend it.

Do they actually have a list of ammo that will void your warranty?

BTW, I'm going to fire that ammo through it. ;) :350:

[Shattered Mind]

Oh yeah, they have a gas chromatography mass spectrometer.

Haha. A gas what? Dave, yer giving me gas....:43:

[Shattered Mind]

But apperently Shattered Mind knows everything about everything though.:1900000:

Not true. I continually buy lotto tickets and have failed to find the right combination... so far.

As far as South African tar issues or ANY ammo related issues... I ask this. Do you clean you guns? Do you REALLY clean your guns? Because if you do , IF YOU DO, you will have no worries about ANY ammo, including the worst corrosive ammo out there. For anyone who fails to clean their guns properly and then need to have someone else chisel out tar and petrified carbon, well, you get what you deserve.

JLD/PTR gets guns back that are filthy with crud and RUST… and the customer bawls about how the gun sucks, and that they should fix it up with new shiny parts. I'd give out the same sheets if I were them. It's a customer problem. So they give you a list of nice, non corrosive, brandy-new ammo to use so they don't have to listen to whiners.

You can shoot any damn tar laden, steel cased, lousy smelling, dirty ammo you want. Learn to clean your guns and then you too can make statements like this without hesitation.

Oh, and you misspelled "apparently". My spell checker is whining about that also.

[Shattered Mind]

First of all shattered has probably fired more in the last 30 days than I get down range the rest of the year.


You might be right. Just came back from the Eden, VT shoot three weeks ago. The Browning A4 ate just over 3,000 rounds of 8 mm and 2,000 rounds of .22 in a Gubbermint .22 conversion that I just got working. The SW-51K gobbled up the two 200 round battle-packs I brought for it. The Vector 53P and HK-33 dumped close to 2,000 rounds of Israeli tracer down range. I just converted my M1A1 Thompson to 9 mm and blew off 500 rounds with apparent teething problems, then changed it back to 45 and used up some 400 rounds for that. I made up a Swedish practice ammo barrel for one of my MKA-760 subbies and it wolfed down a case of the 5 mm BB tipped rounds without a hiccup. The wife helped get rid of over half a case of 9 mm +P+ ammo through her Walther MPK and my Mac 11/9 slofire.

Then we set up a mini grill and had a bunch of people help get rid of a bunch of hotdogs and Bubba Burgers.

We had fun.

[Shattered Mind]

well is'nt surplus ammo leftover/outdated military supply? Aren't these weapons built org. for the the military?
yes
yes
fire away:)


Well, yeah, My point eggzactly. Just treat the gun like the military does too and you'll have no problems.

[raising_arizona]

Well, yeah, My point eggzactly. Just treat the gun like the military does too and you'll have no problems.

Roger that. I don't think my 200 rds is going to last that long. ;)

[kwesi]

You might be right. Just came back from the Eden, VT shoot three weeks ago. The Browning A4 ate just over 3,000 rounds of 8 mm and 2,000 rounds of .22 in a Gubbermint .22 conversion that I just got working. The SW-51K gobbled up the two 200 round battle-packs I brought for it. The Vector 53P and HK-33 dumped close to 2,000 rounds of Israeli tracer down range. I just converted my M1A1 Thompson to 9 mm and blew off 500 rounds with apparent teething problems, then changed it back to 45 and used up some 400 rounds for that. I made up a Swedish practice ammo barrel for one of my MKA-760 subbies and it wolfed down a case of the 5 mm BB tipped rounds without a hiccup. The wife helped get rid of over half a case of 9 mm +P+ ammo through her Walther MPK and my Mac 11/9 slofire.

Then we set up a mini grill and had a bunch of people help get rid of a bunch of hotdogs and Bubba Burgers.

We had fun.

I give...I give. Thanks for stopping with the ammo count - I'll bet I don't have a chance on the Bubba Burgers either :-).

[kwesi]

With the "cupro-nickel" cladding over the steel jacket, you will not be haivng steel-to-steel contact within your barrel. The cupro-nickel cladding (coating) is softer than steel for just this reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupro-nickel

I recently picked up 1000+ rounds of this with the DAG head stamp. I was told that while the common belief is that this causes more wear on your barrel that fact is that it is less! This is due to the polished nickel ext. It is my understanding that the this also increased the velocity. Seems like these projectiles were quite expensive to produce back in the day.

I'm finding that in evey box I've opened there are 4-6 rounds that have a dark green discoloration on the casings. It was removed easily with light sand paper. All rounds functioned fine.

I tried to post the pictures but the mods removed the thread. I can email them to anyone interested. You can email me at michael@michaeldavissellshomes.com.

BTW: One person said that this is oxidation from the acid contained in the cardboard boxes.

[Huntersdad]

Holy cow... I wanna come to one of your parties.

-Huntersdad


You might be right. Just came back from the Eden, VT shoot three weeks ago. The Browning A4 ate just over 3,000 rounds of 8 mm and 2,000 rounds of .22 in a Gubbermint .22 conversion that I just got working. The SW-51K gobbled up the two 200 round battle-packs I brought for it. The Vector 53P and HK-33 dumped close to 2,000 rounds of Israeli tracer down range. I just converted my M1A1 Thompson to 9 mm and blew off 500 rounds with apparent teething problems, then changed it back to 45 and used up some 400 rounds for that. I made up a Swedish practice ammo barrel for one of my MKA-760 subbies and it wolfed down a case of the 5 mm BB tipped rounds without a hiccup. The wife helped get rid of over half a case of 9 mm +P+ ammo through her Walther MPK and my Mac 11/9 slofire.

Then we set up a mini grill and had a bunch of people help get rid of a bunch of hotdogs and Bubba Burgers.

We had fun.

[akxx]

So what is the preferred method of removing tar deposited from SA ammo after firing? Potential inquiring minds want to know how to clean these thing properly!

[Shattered Mind]

So what is the preferred method of removing tar deposited from SA ammo after firing? Potential inquiring minds want to know how to clean these thing properly!

Well!

Personally, I use the HK chamber brush and solvent, if it's worn and I don't have another (that'd be rare) I have used AR-15 chamber brushes. For a stubborn deposit in a flute, I have used a dental pick very carefully followed by more scrubbing with a chamber brush.

[coprtoppe]

if you look at PTRs ammo recommendations you'll see this exact ammo is not recommended. you might be screwed if you have problems.


So is there a list?
I searched the web site without luck.

Tony

[paratroop23]

I recently picked up 1000+ rounds of this with the DAG head stamp. I was told that while the common belief is that this causes more wear on your barrel that fact is that it is less! This is due to the polished nickel ext. It is my understanding that the this also increased the velocity. Seems like these projectiles were quite expensive to produce back in the day.

I'm finding that in evey box I've opened there are 4-6 rounds that have a dark green discoloration on the casings. It was removed easily with light sand paper. All rounds functioned fine.

I tried to post the pictures but the mods removed the thread. I can email them to anyone interested. You can email me at michael@michaeldavissellshomes.com.

BTW: One person said that this is oxidation from the acid contained in the cardboard boxes.

I had the exact same problem! I bought a case of DAG a several months ago. 20% of the rounds I inspected from the battle pack that I opened had corrosion. I still haven't fired any of it. I've heard that it's good stuff. What kind of groups are you getting? Are you putting it through a PTR91?

[tcr39]

I had the exact same problem! I bought a case of DAG a several months ago. 20% of the rounds I inspected from the battle pack that I opened had corrosion. I still haven't fired any of it. I've heard that it's good stuff. What kind of groups are you getting? Are you putting it through a PTR91?

I have this same ammo,it is very accurate and has less wear on barrel because of the nickle jacket. THE PROBLEM is that every couple rounds one will not extract from my chamber in my ptr-91k. Now it is tar sealed because i cut one open. this is the only ammo that has ever failed to extract from my chamber,it will not push bolt back and i have to manualy extract by hand. Is it the small amount of corrosion on casing or is it the tar that is doing this? again very accurate,but not reliable. thank god i just picked up 600rds of port for 300$. I shoot PORT, ASUSSIE,IGMAN, PRVI SERB,WOLF,SELLEIR BELLOT and HORNADY with no FTE what up w/this ammo? OH, and by the way ; I keep this rifle spotless, clean it immediatly when i get home from range and yes , I clean the flutes very carefully. It has to be the TAR

[BillR]

I have this same ammo,it is very accurate and has less wear on barrel because of the nickle jacket. THE PROBLEM is that every couple rounds one will not extract from my chamber in my ptr-91k. Now it is tar sealed because i cut one open. this is the only ammo that has ever failed to extract from my chamber,it will not push bolt back and i have to manualy extract by hand. Is it the small amount of corrosion on casing or is it the tar that is doing this? again very accurate,but not reliable. thank god i just picked up 600rds of port for 300$. I shoot PORT, ASUSSIE,IGMAN, PRVI SERB,WOLF,SELLEIR BELLOT and HORNADY with no FTE what up w/this ammo? OH, and by the way ; I keep this rifle spotless, clean it immediatly when i get home from range and yes , I clean the flutes very carefully. It has to be the TAR



Probably bad ammo, some rounds are weak and not pushing the carrier back far enough to let the ejector do its thing. If it was the TAR problem i would think that you would get to a point where all rounds would FTE. From what others have said about corrosion on the cases it may have not be stored properly causing the powder to go bad. Watch and listen for squib rounds.

[BillR]

I had some serious problems with tar-sealed ammo like Winchester white box. Gummed it up completely after about 4-5 rounds. They sent me a list of recommended ammo, one of which was Federal American Eagle, which works great. I can't find the email, or the link on their site for ammo recommendations.

Is there a link?


Never had a problem with my build that has a HK91 barrel and i shoot South African ammo, it gets real black and sooted up in the chamber . That list of recommended ammo is a cop out. Let me guess the brands they recommend dont have sealed bullits or primers. Sounds more like a barrel problem, it should eat and eject anything.

[tcr39]

Never had a problem with my build that has a HK91 barrel and i shoot South African ammo, it gets real black and sooted up in the chamber . That list of recommended ammo is a cop out. Let me guess the brands they recommend dont have sealed bullits or primers. Sounds more like a barrel problem, it should eat and eject anything.

HEY Billr, thanks for input, but this only happens with this DAG ammo. And it only happens every 4 or 5 rounds, I suppose you could be right about some loads not cycling bolt,but has anyone else had this prpblem? this rifle eats everything else even wolf. I,m going to try somemore this week and see what happens. What say you ?

[kwesi]

HEY Billr, thanks for input, but this only happens with this DAG ammo. And it only happens every 4 or 5 rounds, I suppose you could be right about some loads not cycling bolt,but has anyone else had this prpblem? this rifle eats everything else even wolf. I,m going to try somemore this week and see what happens. What say you ?

I've been shooting the DAG "cupro-nickel" for several months with very few extraction issues and on F/A. Good stuff!

I'm using it my V51P.

[tcr39]

I've been shooting the DAG "cupro-nickel" for several months with very few extraction issues and on F/A. Good stuff!

I'm using it my V51P.

I,m thinking it could be some of the corrosion on some of the cases getting hot when it fires, and maybe thats making it stick , just long enough to not push bolt back. IT will extract by hand after i fire. I guess i,ll have to see what happens. I have 1500rnds of other surplus that all cycles perfect

[tcr39]

I,m thinking it could be some of the corrosion on some of the cases getting hot when it fires, and maybe thats making it stick , just long enough to not push bolt back. IT will extract by hand after i fire. I guess i,ll have to see what happens. I have 1500rnds of other surplus that all cycles perfect

well I cleaned the corrosion off some of the cases today before i went to range, and they all functioned perfect. they group almost as good as the portugese does. I will just have to clean with greeny pad the ones that have oxidation. DAG is good stuff

[chadc5150]

Has anyone fired this ammo in an SAR8 ? Thinking of buying a couple of cases but would like a little input first. Thanks in advance.