Unlucky coincidence or incompetent customer service?

[YVK]

I had to send my M8 to Trussville a month ago for a weird cycling problem. It came back with diagnosis of, what else, dirty gas chamber. Person who called me seemed to be unimpressed with the fact that this pistol was under the same maintenance routine for the first 7200 flawless rounds. But, what do I know, they are the professionals.

First range trip - the thing becomes inoperable after 32 rounds. Broken drop safety spring; I don't know if anything else is wrong.

Called them back - they asked to send the pistol back. No, they wouldn't pay for shipping even though it is a second trip in 6 weeks. The rep said that he "would try to do something for me"; we'll see what comes out of it.

BTW, the destination address was HK facility in Columbus, GA. Looks like their CS has been moved.

So, what do you think: did they fail to inspect and repair the gun properly first time around, or I, with my luck, had two different issues separated by just 32 rounds?

[cmdrdredd]

Sounds like a smith took it apart and figured "he just don't clean it right" and didn't give it a good look over.

[ARKAY.357]

Travis, the head gun guru who has been held in high regard by many here, is no longer with the company. Maybe the new guy isn't up to speed.

Just a WAG;

ARKAY

[Bolted]

:390:

Dear Customers,

In order to better serve you, Heckler & Koch will be consolidating the Trussville, Alabama and Columbus, Georgia facilities. This transition will take place August 25 – September 5, 2008. During this time we will strictly comply with all U.S. BATF regulations to ensure No Compromises are made. Throughout this two-week period, no product will be shipped from our facilities, and no repairs will be accepted.

The contact information at the consolidated Columbus facility is:

Heckler & Koch
Commercial and Civilian Sales
5675 Transport Blvd. Suite 200
Columbus, GA 31907 USA
Tel: (706) 568-1906
Fax: (706) 568-9151
Email: cs@hk-usa.com

We look forward to better serving you.

Heckler & Koch USA

[Big Bore]

I think the new guy (how long before we quit calling him the new guy? ;) ) is up to speed but it really does sound to me that you have two separate issues. The gun was working until it broke so there was no way the person could tell if the spring was going to break. There are several things that can stop a P7-M8 cold in its tracks and until it breaks there is no way for an inspector to tell if anything is wrong. I think if the spring had been broken before it was returned it would have shown up on the first shot and while it failing so quickly after getting the pistol back is unfortunate I do not think it was because anyone missed anything the first time. By the way, if I am right, save your money and don't buy a lottery ticket because you have the same luck I have. As they use to say on Hee-Haw, "If it weren't for bad luck I'd have not luck at all..."

[YVK]

Sounds like a smith took it apart and figured "he just don't clean it right" and didn't give it a good look over.

This brings me to another point I'd forgotten to make. I didn't clean pistol before sending it back, so it was 140-rounds-dirty. If I were to do this again, I would give a pistol my usual cleaning.

By the way, if I am right, save your money and don't buy a lottery ticket..."

Never bought one in my life.

I follow your logic. One thing that we don't know is how this spring breaks. If it breaks like glass - one minute it is fine, next it's in pieces - then you're right, it should've only shown when the spring was broken. However, if it gets deformed, or part-way dislodged or misaligned before snapping, then it could theoretically give intermittent malfunctions. And, theoretically, the problem could be detected on careful inspection.

I don't know if I'll ever get to the bottom of this. Honestly, what I can't wrap my brain around is them telling me that gas chamber was too dirty. I mean, it wasn't dirty enough for first 7+K rounds with soaking-scraping-and-brushing-every-250-rounds routine.

I need to learn how to let go...

[flanker4741]

I just wish we could send our H&Ks to Germany for service.:)

[Chui]

I just wish we could send our H&Ks to Germany for service.:)
Have you been following the US economic situation lately???

[flanker4741]

Have you been following the US economic situation lately???

Just what does the US economic situation have to do with me wanting the best service for my German Mfg. H&K?:6:

[JoeyBones]

Oops - Double Post.

[JoeyBones]

Just what does the US economic situation have to do with me wanting the best service for my German Mfg. H&K?

Crappy U.S. economy = crappy Dollar = Higher charges, etc., when dealing with a European country, I believe is what it boils down do...

I'm no economist, but that was my take on Chui's statement.

Regards,
-Bones

[flanker4741]

Crappy U.S. economy = crappy Dollar = Higher charges, etc., when dealing with a European country, I believe is what it boils down do...

I'm no economist, but that was my take on Chui's statement.

Regards,
-Bones

Well since it's not really going to happen as there is no way we can ship our H&Ks out of the USA or get them back without and export/ inport firearm license. I was just giving my own thoughts on really getting quality work done when and if it's ever needed on my H&Ks.:40:

[YVK]

Follow-up: got the gun back, 10 days turn-around. I wonder if this short time was a favor that customer rep implied about, 'cause, otherwise, there was nothing else in the package.

The repair list states: "gas port in barrel was eroded - replaced barrel. Replaced worn gas piston. Replaced broken catch safety spring and bent squeeze cocker spring".

I am glad to have this pistol back. I am curious how the new barrel will shoot; somewhat apprehensive if POA/POI will change. I am surprised that gas port and piston wore out after 8K of factory ammo. I am going to do another "no-cleaning" trial since they stated they'd cleaned gas chamber during pistol's last trip. I like the fact that this time the person who worked on my gun put his name on accompanying papers; first time it was incognito. I am convinced that the first time around their tech didn't do his job, since, whether safety catch spring was broken or not, the gas port and piston were out of specs then. I do want my 70 bucks back. That's all.

[Germanic]

It seems to me, that if you had mentioned the approximate round count, they should have replaced all the major springs as a matter of preventative maintenance. SIG recommends spring replacement every 3K - 5K rounds. As many critical springs as a P7 has, that should be done as a matter of routine on any gun with a significant number of rounds down range.

It also seems a bit odd that the gas port & piston needed replacement after only 7K or so rounds.

[YVK]

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the only true problem was a drop safety spring, and it was missed on the first inspection. I think - can't confirm, but strongly suspect - that barrel and gas piston replacement was that "something" that their CS rep has implied he was going to do for me. He was appreciative of my frustration of shipping the gun back to them twice in 6 weeks. If I am right in my assumptions, then thank you, Linc.

[G3Kurz]

YVK

You did not describe the "weird cycling problem" caused by the fouled gas cylinder. Also no mentioin if you purchased it new or used before you fired 7200 additional rounds through it. I am assuming you fire only jacketed and no lead bullets thru your P7. In my assessment the two issues are unrelated. It is likely that the gas cylinder may have needed additional cleaning with a special reamer (cutter) HK armorers sometimes use to remove heavy deposits in the rear of the cylinder that can sometimes inhibit the free movement of the slide, especially build ups of molten lead from unjacketed ammo. This would be beyond the fouling that can be removed by the P7 scraping tool or brush, or solvent as you mentioned. You should never fired unjacketed bullets through a gas retarded P7.

As the drop safety spring has nothing to do with cycling or the gas retardation seems it was just bad luck that it failed when it did. The drop safety component is not even required for proper function, just for duplicate prevention of drop induced AD's (an important function to be sure!)

If HK replaced those parrts you listed at no charge and the pistol is now working to your satisfaction consider yourself the recipient of the better end of the deal by far because the cost for a new barrel and gas piston alone would be at least $500 and as you know spare barrels for the P7 are no longer importable.

As for why they would have reoplaced the barrel and gas piston on the second trip it seems they took care of you for the trouble and may have found excessive wear that upon closer inspection could have contributed to your "weird cycling issue" - causing overfunction in a P7 where an worn/oversized gas port combined with worn gas piston causes excessive rearward velocity in the slide and can cause feeding stoppages.

If you purchased this pistol used there is no telling how many rounds were through it before you rec'd it, or how it was maintained. Even P7's as durable as they are still in need of attn from time to time. There is a price to be paid thru the advantages of the gas retardation system.

As for a change in POA/POI with the new barrel I doubt you will see much if any depending upon how well you shoot. The pressed in arrangement and extreme durability of P7 barrels (> 60K rounds I have seen) usually eliminates such concerns in the P7 but you will answer that question when you check your zero. The damaged squeeze cocker spring is almost always caused by incorrrect reassembly.

From the info provided I would say HK in this case provided very good customer service.

Good luck with it.

G3Kurz

[YVK]

G3Kurz,

I am an original owner of the pistol, and the round count is exact. Pistol has only seen jacketed ammo. In fact, it's only seen factory-loaded jacketed ammo as I don't reload. That's why I am wondering if the bbl port was truly eroded.

The cycling problem that lead to the first trip was this: episodic slide freeze at the very end of slide travel. By freeze I mean exactly that: slide stuck at the very end of travel, requiring light tap to make it moving again. There were about 7 or 8 of these over the 500 rounds, both with live fire and manual cycling. There was no relationship to whether the gun was clean or dirty, and, again, my cleaning cycle is about 250 rounds. I already mentioned a couple of reasons (meticulous maintenance schedule and perfect function from day 1 till now) that make me very skeptical it had anything to do with dirty chamber. Another thing is that between malfunctions there were no indications of fouled chamber - the slide cycled easily, no sluggishness, normal feeding and ejection. I'd expect some of those, as well as more frequent, maybe constant, malfunctions, if fouling was bad enough to stop slide in it's tracks, like it happened with mine.

As far as safety spring is concerned, I think the best way to put it is that presence of it is not necessary for proper cycling of the gun. When my broke, it affected cycling big time :D - the gun wouldn't cycle at all as squeezing the cocker would pull the slide out of battery but would not cock the firing pin. Apparently this is a recognized symptom of broken safety spring, according to folks on PCT.

My theory, which will never be confirmed, that safety spring, before it broke completely, may have lost tension, or got deformed, which in turn may have caused episodic prolapse or position change which could explain episodic nature of malfunctions.

Regardless, I am happy to have my pistol back, I hope it's the end of my problems, and I appreciate you taking time to type that long reply. Also, certain things you mentioned were quite informative and made me think some other things about my pistol's problems. I do understand that worn piston would cause excessive rearward velocity, but how would eroded gas port contribute to this? Wouldn't it lead to more gas pressure in the chamber?