WEAK USP .45 Mag Spring? WTF???? Even with Wolf?

[gunut45]

Anyone have any issues with the mag springs with their USP .45 after being kept loaded?

I usually have my mags loaded w/ 12rnds, 1 in the pipe.

Awhile ago I took my USP Tac .45 to the range and experienced numerous ftf (first ever failures) because the mag spring had crapped out after being left loaded.

I upgraded all my 12nrd mags to Wolf +10% and have not done too much shooting since then. I just left one of the mags loaded for around 6 months or so.

Today I was playing with my Tac .45 when I noticed that the mag that I had kept loaded would not always lock the slide back when I pulled slowly to the rear. It will when I pull the slide back in a quick motion, but not when I slowly retract it. The slide stop always pops up quickly when I did the same motion with the mags (wolf +10% spring) that were not left loaded.

I worry that down the road I will run into the same issues.

So, is my worrying justified? Anyone else experiance anything like this?

Thoughts?

[JT]

As recommended by Larry Vickers, SpecOps/pistolsmith guru, try downloading your mags by 1 and rotating them monthly for preservation and reliability.

[gunut45]

As recommended by Larry Vickers, SpecOps/pistolsmith guru, try downloading your mags by 1 and rotating them monthly for preservation and reliability.

That sucks :(

I think I will also call wolf tomorrow and see what they have to say about it.

[bshizzle]

That sucks :(

I think I will also call wolf tomorrow and see what they have to say about it.

That does suck and I disagree with the guru - I have kept my glock mags loaded for longer than 6 months and they have worked very well.

I'm interested in seeing what wolf has to say as I just picked up a USP 45.

[AviatorDave]

I have, well, had, it was either lost or stolen, a Ruger P85 for almost 18 years. Both magazines were fully loaded continuously over those 18 years, and never once did I have an FTF due to mag springs.

I'm surprised that with the advances in material sciences that there is a need for Wolff springs.

[gunut45]

That does suck and I disagree with the guru - I have kept my glock mags loaded for longer than 6 months and they have worked very well.

I'm interested in seeing what wolf has to say as I just picked up a USP 45.

Yes, my G22 mags are always loaded.

[gunut45]

So I called Wolf springs today and they stated:

-HK springs are crap. 2nd worst in the industry (this I know. Sad but true)

-They recommend changing out loaded mags about every year or so for best spring life, after all he USP .45 magazine has to deal with a lot of weight having 12 .45 cartridges in them.

-They build their springs with the intention for you to keep them fully loaded.



I told them my story and they stated that it should not be doing that and there is a chance I had received a defective spring.

He is sending me another mag spring free of change under warranty.

I think once I receive this spring I will only keep 11 loaded in the mag for long storage and as always have one in the pipe.

[AviatorDave]

So I called Wolf springs today and they stated:

-HK springs are crap. 2nd worst in the industry (this I know. Sad but true)

-They recommend changing out loaded mags about every year or so for best spring life, after all he USP .45 magazine has to deal with a lot of weight having 12 .45 cartridges in them.

-They build their springs with the intention for you to keep them fully loaded.



I don't know anything about the quality or necessity of their springs, nor the ranking of HKs mag springs in the industry, but this part of Wolf's comment is utterly ridiculous: "after all the USP .45 magazine has to deal with a lot of weight having 12 .45 cartridges in them." Whomever said that is either completely ignorant of how springs fatigue, or just a lie to convince you that you need their springs. The loading of a mag spring has nothing to do with the weight of the ammo. It's the DISTANCE it is compressed, not the sum of the weight on it. You could replace the 12 .45 cartridges with 12 cylinders of balsa wood and it wouldn't change the stress in the spring one little bit.

If the weight of the ammo made any difference, you could simply store your magazines hanging upside down and the springs would never wear out.

[Kochaholic]

-HK springs are crap. 2nd worst in the industry

-They recommend changing out loaded mags about every year or so for best spring life, after all he USP .45 magazine has to deal with a lot of weight having 12 .45 cartridges in them. Sounds like they just want to sell springs.

I told them my story and they stated that it should not be doing that and there is a chance I had received a defective spring. He is sending me another mag spring free of change under warranty. -They build their springs with the intention for you to keep them fully loaded. sounds like Wolff failed the test to.

While anyone can make a defective spring, If I read your thread correctly, you have only had problems with one mag that you have kept loaded, both with the HK spring and Wolffs. ( you did not say if the loaded mag with Wolff spring was the same mag you initially had the problem with) Ever think the problem might be with your guns slide release or the mag?

[gunut45]

I don't know anything about the quality or necessity of their springs, nor the ranking of HKs mag springs in the industry, but this part of Wolf's comment is utterly ridiculous: "after all the USP .45 magazine has to deal with a lot of weight having 12 .45 cartridges in them." Whomever said that is either completely ignorant of how springs fatigue, or just a lie to convince you that you need their springs. The loading of a mag spring has nothing to do with the weight of the ammo. It's the DISTANCE it is compressed, not the sum of the weight on it. You could replace the 12 .45 cartridges with 12 cylinders of balsa wood and it wouldn't change the stress in the spring one little bit.

If the weight of the ammo made any difference, you could simply store your magazines hanging upside down and the springs would never wear out.

He said something about HK using a poor type of metal in their springs that make them wear faster. What you said about the weight makes sense.

I am just surprised how fast these springs wear out. The HK .45 magazine and follow are pretty big for the capacity. It is surprising that they compress so much as to damage the spring.

[gunut45]

-HK springs are crap. 2nd worst in the industry

-They recommend changing out loaded mags about every year or so for best spring life, after all he USP .45 magazine has to deal with a lot of weight having 12 .45 cartridges in them. Sounds like they just want to sell springs.

I told them my story and they stated that it should not be doing that and there is a chance I had received a defective spring. He is sending me another mag spring free of change under warranty. -They build their springs with the intention for you to keep them fully loaded. sounds like Wolff failed the test to.

While anyone can make a defective spring, If I read your thread correctly, you have only had problems with one mag that you have kept loaded, both with the HK spring and Wolffs. ( you did not say if the loaded mag with Wolff spring was the same mag you initially had the problem with) Ever think the problem might be with your guns slide release or the mag?

After I switched the springs in all my mags I used a different mag than the one I had been using when I had my first spring failure. I didn't quite trust it yet.

I don't think it is the slide release since it functions fine with my other mags and I know it is not the magazine body because I swapped the internals and has the same failure.

Lemme go swap the followers...

ETA yeah swapped bodies and followers again. It is the spring.

[SIGtrarian]

I don't know anything about the quality or necessity of their springs, nor the ranking of HKs mag springs in the industry, but this part of Wolf's comment is utterly ridiculous: "after all the USP .45 magazine has to deal with a lot of weight having 12 .45 cartridges in them." Several years ago I found a deal I couldn't pass up on two USP40f's, night sights and 3 mags each, it was a large agency order over run. The awb had just ended and I was jonesing. I ended up having to replace the springs in all 6 magazines after the first outing, none had enough power to push up the slide stop up after the last round. I replaced them with Wolff +10's and haven't had to replace them yet. The comment about the weight of the .45 rounds seems a little over the top, though. It's not like there constantly bouncing up and down.

[orfeo]

12 times 21 grams (a 230 gr 45 ACP cartridge's approximate weight) is 9 total ounces. . . well over half a pound. It's heavy. The design of the USP magazine DOES over-compress the spring when fully loaded to some degree. The somewhat over-compressed spring, then having to strongly lift 9 heavy ounces of cartridges after staying somewhat over-compressed for a long period of time, really tests the limits of the spring. Keep in mind that the spring-maker (whether HK or Wolff) also has to contend with the other side of the equation wherein if the spring is too strong, it will be impossible to load by hand and/or it will break the floor-plate out of the mag if it is dropped or banged. Downloading by 1 is a very good solution to the over-compression thing, and will most definitely add to the useful lifespan of the mag-spring. It is not that the weight in itself will accelerate the wear on the spring so much as it is the weight combined with the somewhat over-compression when fully loaded. There will always be design tradeoffs when you try to fit maximum rounds into the smallest package. The factory HK springs would be MUCH more reliable if they sold them as 11 rounders instead of calling them 12s. The HK mag-springs are also MUCH easier and more pleasant to use than the stronger Wolffs, but even the mighty Wolff spring falls victim to the somewhat over-compression thing. . . even as strong as they are. :)

[AviatorDave]

12 times 21 ounces (a 230 gr 45 ACP cartridge's approximate weight) is 9 total ounces. . . well over half a pound.

Your numbers are way off somewhere. 12 x 21 ounces is over 15 pounds, and I'm pretty sure that a single 45 acp doesn't weigh nearly a pound and a half.

[AviatorDave]

Several years ago I found a deal I couldn't pass up on two USP40f's, night sights and 3 mags each, it was a large agency order over run. The awb had just ended and I was jonesing. I ended up having to replace the springs in all 6 magazines after the first outing, none had enough power to push up the slide stop up after the last round. I replaced them with Wolff +10's and haven't had to replace them yet. The comment about the weight of the .45 rounds seems a little over the top, though. It's not like there constantly bouncing up and down.

Like I said, I'm not arguing that the OEM springs aren't a weak point, just that the statement about "having to deal with the weight of 12 rounds of .45" is a bunch of crap as it relates to storing full magazines.

[orfeo]

Your numbers are way off somewhere. 12 x 21 ounces is over 15 pounds, and I'm pretty sure that a single 45 acp doesn't weigh nearly a pound and a half.

I meant 21 grams :) not 21 ounces. . .

12 x 21 grams = 252 grams divided by 28 grams in an ounce = 9 ounces. . .

Like I said, 9 ounces is over half a pound (16 ounces in a pound). . . it is quite heavy. And also like I tried to say, it is the somewhat overcompressed design that is the culprit, and that is the reason that downloading by one is a VERY helpful technique to preserve the mag-spring-life. . . especially so if you always downloaded by one since new.

Thanks for the correction and for saving me from looking silly :)

[BytorJr]

So what happened to the theory, which I've heard from smaller manufacturers, that springs don't wear out just by being compressed? That it's the up and down that wears them out. I'm not a metallurgist, but maybe somebody on board is.

[9mil]

The compression of a spring is generally not what causes it's fatigue. The frequent loading and unloading is usually more much of a factor than any period of compression. If you are storing a mag for a long time I would recommend that the magazine be fairly unused. There was a study done on magazine springs on an AR site that showed this. At work we had a problem with springs and came up with the same thing. If I can find the post, Ill add a link to it.

[9mil]

I can't find the post with the graphs before and after loading but here is a good article that talks all about leaving magazines loaded. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_163_27/ai_99130369

[AviatorDave]

From a materials engineering perspective -

New springs do take an initial set if they are compressed for an extended period, but it's very small. Like 1%-2% at normal temperatures, and only 5% at temperatures around 500F.

They will do this whether they are cycling or not. And for all intents and purposes, a spring in a magazine is considered to be under static load. Springs under oscillating load would be hammer springs, recoil springs, etc, that are rapidly compressed and rapidly extended. Not mag springs. They are slowly compressed, and then relatively slowly extended.

When fatigue life of a spring is discussed, the low end of the scale is 100,000 cycles. No magazine spring will ever come near that.

So if a spring is designed properly and of a suitable material, it won't be a problem to store it that way.

I wonder if that's why the UMP mags are designed the way they are - the 25 round magazines will easily take 27 rounds and can still be seated in the magwell. I'm very skeptical when a company that sells mag springs says that the ones that come with one of the most expensive commercial handguns on the market uses the worst springs, but of course, "ours are much better."

[9mil]

Exactly. No major handgun manufacturer would ever design their mag springs to plastically deform when filled to their stated max capacity. I have trouble believing that any magazine made in the last 100 years would be designed that way. Even the worst engineer would never let that happen. But worse things have happened.

[SIGtrarian]

Several years ago I found a deal I couldn't pass up on two USP40f's, night sights and 3 mags each, it was a large agency order over run. The awb had just ended and I was jonesing. I ended up having to replace the springs in all 6 magazines after the first outing, none had enough power to push up the slide stop up after the last round. I replaced them with Wolff +10's and haven't had to replace them yet. The comment about the weight of the .45 rounds seems a little over the top, though. It's not like there constantly bouncing up and down.

Like I said, I'm not arguing that the OEM springs aren't a weak point, just that the statement about "having to deal with the weight of 12 rounds of .45" is a bunch of crap as it relates to storing full magazines.I know,...that's why I agreed with you.

[orfeo]

. . . the 25 round magazines will easily take 27 rounds and can still be seated in the magwell. . .

This is exactly what I am talking about. At 25 rounds, the mag capacity stays within the elastic limits of the spring, so that the following statement might be true:

** "When fatigue life of a spring is discussed, the low end of the scale is 100,000 cycles. No magazine spring will ever come near that." **

That statement works only with a spring and mag design that does not stress the spring beyond it's elastic limits.

Once a spring is stretched or compressed beyond its elastic limits, it becomes DAMAGED. Once it becomes overstressed or damaged, cyclic fatigue lifespan is out the window.

Another oft-overlooked factor in spring "set" is how many cycles of significant temperature changes occur during a long period wherein a mag is kept fully loaded. For example, suppose that a brand new USP 45 mag is left fully loaded to the max with 12 rounds of 230 gr 45 acp for 25 years on the seat inside of a car out in your yard in Montana. . . going from say 105 degrees down to say -15 degrees repeatedly. Then after those 25 years take out that spring and compare it to another 25 year old new spring from a USP 45 mag that was also kept fully loaded with 12 rounds of 230 gr 45 acp in a perfect temperature and humidity-controlled environment of 72 degrees and 25 percent humidity. The one exposed to the fluctuations will certainly be shorter compressed than the other.

Cyclic fatigue predictions only work when all other possible factors are removed from the equation. Cyclic fatigue predictions of 100,000 cycles in a 12-round 45 USP mag might surely work if the mag was only ever loaded to say 6 or 8 rounds. In other words, if you make absolutely sure that the spring NEVER approaches its elastic limits, it will cycle without noticeable fatigue for an awfully LONG time.

It is tiring listening to some people repeat over and over what they may have read in theory somewhere about how springs ONLY wear from cyclic fatigue. That is simply wrong, and NOT true. Try taking your mag spring out and stretching it out to its fully straight length. . . then compress it carefully and deliberately back into its original shape and length, and reinsert it back into your mag and start using it every day next to one that was never overstretched. You'll see in short order that cyclic fatigue is NOT the only way to damage a spring.

Mag makers are hard pressed to get the most cartridges into the least space. The result sometimes is that not enough space is left for the compressed spring, leading to a more-compressed-than-would-be-optimal magazine spring. And THAT is why downloading your mags by 1 or 2 increases the overall lifespan and reliability of the spring. :)

Nuthin' personal. . . Peace brothers ;)

[orfeo]

. . .So if a spring is designed properly and of a suitable material, it won't be a problem to store it that way. . .

Yes, but. . . it's more the mag design. It must leave enough room for the spring to compress without OVER-compressing. :)

[orfeo]

The weight issues mentioned above, only really come into play when a spring is operating close to its elastic limits, or when the spring is insufficiently strong to begin with. :)

[MrShipwreck]

I will vouch for HK mag springs not being very good. I have a USPc 9mm - and I have 7 mags for it. three are 13 rounders, and four at 10 rounders. After 3 range trips, EVERY one of them failed to lock the slide back.

I had to replace the springs in all 7 mags to get them to stop doing this (with Wolf springs).

I have a new USPc 45 now - I anticipate having to do the same thing. Purchasing 7 magsprings wasn't cheap. I have 6 mags for my USPc 45 now - I guess Ill be planning for them to go south soon.

[9mil]

The reason that people keep talking about cyclic fatigue is that in any well designed spring system it is the main cause for failure. I do not work for a gun company but I would assume they would not allow any plastic deformation in the normal displacement of a magazine. I'm a ME and I don't know of any engineer that would purposely design a spring to plastically deform under an expected displacement. Allowing this violates basic engineering principles. Unless someone that works for a gun company can verify they design magazine springs to plastically deform under normal magazine conditions; assuming cyclic fatigue to be the cause of failure is valid.

[gunut45]

I meant 21 grams :) not 21 ounces. . .

12 x 21 grams = 252 grams divided by 28 grams in an ounce = 9 ounces. . .

Like I said, 9 ounces is over half a pound (16 ounces in a pound). . . it is quite heavy. And also like I tried to say, it is the somewhat overcompressed design that is the culprit, and that is the reason that downloading by one is a VERY helpful technique to preserve the mag-spring-life. . . especially so if you always downloaded by one since new.

Thanks for the correction and for saving me from looking silly :)

you would think the design wouldn't allow for over compression. The mag and follower are HUGE compared to other mags.

[orfeo]

I've got a CZ SP-01 (All steel CZ-75 with accessory rail)

It comes with mags that everyone calls 19-round mags, because they hold 19 rounds. But CZ calls them 18-round mags.

[BytorJr]

While I don't deny that a stretched out spring will not function and that an over-compressed spring will also suffer damage, if a magazine is designed properly, the spring won't be over compressed; therefore, it should not degrade by just being loaded unless heat cycled a bunch.

Furthermore, just to add to the fray a little more, my USP has about 6000 rounds through it, on 4 magazines - and they are still tough to load the final 1 or 2 rounds.