Battle of the Plastic .45's - A Review by Hilton Yam

[ironchef]

**MODS** I hope this is okay to post, if not, please remove accordingly. I have no affiliations to 10-8 or Hilton Yam. I just subscribe to his newsletter and have bought some 1911 parts from his website.

Posting an informal review of the HK45, Glock 21, and S&W M&P 45 4" by Hilton Yam. In case anyone doesn't know who Hilton Yam is, here is a link to his bio and website:

http://www.10-8performance.com/id13.html



Battle of the Plastic .45's
http://10-8performance.com/pics/Plastic45x3.jpg

I recently had the opportunity to shoot some of the front runners in the current crop of fantastic plastic .45 ACP service pistols in a side by side test. While very subjective and relatively informal, this testing proved quite informative. All firing was performed at 7 yards on three IDPA type targets evenly spaced apart about 1 meter center to center. The other shooter, David, was of similar skill and experience level - he's a buddy who is a SWAT operator, firearms instructor, and anavid IDPA Master Class shooter.
The pistols tested were the HK45 full size in Variant 1 configuration (cocked & locked, with decock capability), Glock 21, and S&W M&P .45 4" with thumb safety. We would run each string once or twice with one pistol, then either alternate shooters or switch guns. Strings of fire included two on each target, failure drills (2 body, 1 head), strong hand only 2 on each target, and two body on each then one head on each. All ammunition was Winchester Q4170 ball fed from the factory magazines. Due to the issues with juggling holsters and mag pouches, we did not perform any reloads or draws for the protocol. All firing was initiated from the high ready.

Each of the review sections refers to the guns "tracking", so I want to make sure we are all on the same page as far as what we're talking about. Tracking primarily refers to the gun's characteristics when moving in recoil, which has significant effects on sight recovery. The shooter's physical characteristics and mechanical capability also affect tracking, but each gun also has particular traits that it imparts to the experience. Tracking can also refer peripherally to the ability to drive the gun between targets in recoil, as the gun's recovery in recoil in conjunction with its overall pointability and muzzle balance have a profound effect on this. My buddy David and I rate guns critically on their tracking and ergonomics, as these two sets of characteristics have the most significant effects on the utility of a gun.


Glock 21
The Glock 21 wore a 10-8 .140" rear notch sight with a .215" trititum front and was otherwise stock. This was one of my buddy's IDPA guns and the stock trigger was quite smooth from countless rounds. The reset was positive as with all Glocks. He has larger hands than I do and did not have issues with the gun's grip circumference. I wear a size 8 flight glove and I immediately noted how thick and wide the grip felt. The Glock was the only one of the test guns which held more than 10 rounds in the magazine. I wonder how the gun would feel if it had been made with a 10 round magazine instead of 13. Despite the huge feel in the hand, I was able to shoot the gun well in the testing. I would expect that the size would come into play during the drawstroke as well as manipulations such as hand transfers and reloading.

Overall the gun behaved as most Glocks, and tracked well in recoil, returning positively to a neutral position after firing. The recoil impulse was soft, but sometimes exhibited a loose mechanical feel much like the impulse of an AK-47 where you can feel the parts moving around in recoil. The gun behaved quite differently when it was fully loaded than when it was almost empty. The difference in the felt recoil and speed in tracking was significant - the gun moved more sharply when empty and more slowly/softly when fully loaded.


HK45
The HK45 tested was bone stock and featured the Variant 1 configuration, which permits cocked & locked carry with a decocking capability if you press the safety down past "Fire." The overall feel of the pistol gained positive marks from all who handled it, and it does feel good in the hand. The single action trigger was very good, but no one volunteered to shoot it DA/SA as the DA pull was quite long and heavy. All test firing was done in single action only. The overall trigger movement was a bit long in that the trigger had to be let out most of the way for the reset, but it did not cause any issues in live fire.

The litmus test of course was live fire, and this is where the HK45 really got interesting. Its high bore axis made for a detached feel in regards to pointability and created a rather pronounced muzzle flip. The muzzle flip was such that shooters remarked that they were "spectators" in the gun's recoil recovery, and that you had to put it back rather than it returning on its own. I likened it to holding on to a pogo stick. It wasn't that the recoil was violent - the straight back recoil was quite soft, but that the muzzle bounced around a lot. After rising and then falling in recoil, the muzzle bounced around a bit prior to stopping at neutral. The gun was quite a chore to shoot one handed in any type of hurry, as the muzzle simply did not want to return on its own.

The HK45 also has a few other issues of note. The Variant 1 decock/safety was often pushed down to the decock position (especially when shooting one handed), and required conscious effort not to decock the gun. If I wasn't careful, I could lock up the trigger trying to decock the hammer as I was pressing the trigger. There is a trough in trigger guard that the bottom of the trigger rides in, and this can abrade the trigger finger of some shooters. Of the three guns, it is the heaviest when empty. The gun's long magazines and unique mag catch design (the typical HK lever that needs to be pressed down to release the magazine) make reloading a bit more difficult. I ended up using my trigger finger to drop the mag as I can't reach it with my thumb. The length of the mags can make indexing them into the magazine well somewhat harder to make repeatable.

The HK45 wasn't all bad news, as its saving grace was its exceptional inherent accuracy and how easy it was for shooters to exploit that right away. The barrel uses the same rubber O-ring setup seen on other HK pistols, and it blows my mind that a plastic service pistol with a rubber ring on its drop-in barrel can outshoot a lot of custom 1911s. The magazines were easy to fill, and feature an excellent corrosion resistant finish.


S&W M&P45, 4"
The last gun has already been reviewed in great detail in a previous newsletter (CLICK HERE TO READ THE REVIEW), and it is likely no surprise that it fared very well in this comparison. Of the three guns, it was the lightest and most ergonomic. It was the snappiest in recoil, but it tracked extremely well and returned sharply. I likened the M&P's tracking to watching the Glock 21 in fast motion. Once it came down out of recoil, it stopped moving. Period. It was an interesting contrast going between this gun and the HK. The low bore line and light weight made the gun extremely quick to move between targets. When transitioning between the different pistols, I found that the M&P sometimes returned before I was ready to shoot.

The Achilles heel of the gun is its gritty trigger with indistinct reset. For dedicated individual users, this is easily remedied with a trip to David Bowie's shop. Each generation of the M&P has had improvements in the triggers, and it is my hope that the maturation of the platform brings a consistent out of the box trigger. The other main issue is the magazines, which rust quite easily. All of my dull blue mags were speckled and brown or orange. This is with routine handling and even spraying or wiping with Shooter's Choice Rust Prevent. As I've noted before, bluing is a lousy finish for a service weapon, particularly in the humid climate like that of South Florida. S&W is phasing in a grey electroless nickel looking finish for the .45 magazines, and a black spray on polymer coating in the 9/.40 magazines. In my experience with all the generations of magazines, these new finishes resolve the fuzzy brown mag problem.

[ironchef]

Overall Impressions:
After finishing the shooting, I came up with a few "big picture" impressions of each gun.

The Glock 21 is a big, thick gun that is soft in recoil, tracks well, and benefits from the classic consistent Glock trigger with positive reset. It is a solid performer, if it fits your hand, which is a critical caveat. For me, the weight and size were very much of a deal breaker.

The HK45 has good overall ergonomics and it is very easy to exploit its inherent accuracy. Most shooters who picked it up were able to print excellent groups with it right away. It simultaneously bugs and amazes me that a plastic gun with a rubber O-ring around the end of a drop-in barrel can shoot as well as many hand fit custom 1911s. The Variant 1 decock/safety and weird mag catch make for challenging manual of arms. If I could, I would lose the decock function by going to the Variant 9 if/when the parts become available. Users may also want to take a hard look at the LEM trigger module. The high bore axis makes the gun point in a somewhat detached manner and recoil recovery is a bit of a chore. The gun is big and relatively heavy, so handling and carry can be an issue for smaller users. It is pushing the maximum size for an exposed carry duty gun. The upside, and it is a big one, is that this big gun boasts the famous HK reliability and performance.

The M&P45 is lightweight and exudes excellent ergonomics. It is hands down the most comfortable of the three guns tested. Its trigger is useable but most specimens could benefit from some work. It is snappy in recoil but extremely fast returning on target. The low bore axis in combination with fast tracking made this a very shootable setup. For me, I feel that it is the clear winner with many positives overshadowing a relatively small and fully correctable gripe list.

Not surprisingly, the S&W was my overall pick after running the three. Its excellent ergonomics and tracking characteristics made it the best shooting and handling gun. The HK wins hands down in the accuracy and trigger categories, but is a harder gun to shoot for speed and multiple rounds. It has a high build quality as expected, and has the famous HK reliability. The Glock was predictably Glock-like, and is a very functional gun as long as it fits your hand. I would characterize the 21 as the most "middle of the road" gun in that it did not have severe deficits or benefits over the other two guns in most categories (other than size). The durability/longevity record of the Glock 21 is somewhat mixed. The HK45 and M&P45 are both still too new to have full track record, but I hope for good things.

Anyone looking for a pistol for uniform patrol or tactical team use would do well with any of the three guns tested. However, the size and weight of the HK and Glock would limit their utility for plainclothes use for some personnel. Here is where the M&P would shine. Conversely, the M&P works fine in the other roles too, making it the most versatile of the three. I hope that this little shooting test gives folks some food for thought and is of value in making the right choice in a service pistol.


Good Hunting.
Hilton Yam
10-8 Performance......

[HKCHEF]

Can't say I agree with the pogo stick remark. ;)

[EXCATM]

I'd have to respectfully disagree with a couple of things. The HK mag release is the fastest design I have ever tried, but only if you use your finger not your thumb. The safety lever only becomes a problem if you try to shoot it with a high thumb hold, if you shoot low thumb it is a non issue as it takes a bit of preassure to decock the weapon. If you are using it as a safety and not a thumb shelf then you would never be atempting to dissengage it while trying to pull the trigger. perhaps if he were shooting with a low thumb the pogo stick problem may not exist as he could use the thumb to apply a more even grip to the gun. Granted, I'm not gonna argue technique with Hilton Yam he's been there and done that many more times than I. It just seems to me that with a high thumb grip on a HK all you would have is problems or a loose hold on the pistol.

[99999]

I thought it was fantastic for someone to finally say that HK has a great trigger! =)

I would defer to Greg Bell for comments on shooting it fast and reloading...

[quikz]

This seems all to be a purely subjective review centering in on "tracking" or keeping your gun on target and (subjective) ergonomics.

I'd like to see the actual targets and how they hit.

[El Torero]

They should've had an XD45 for a good comparison too. It's like when they do car comparison's in auto mags and they leave out a good competitor.

[ARKAY.357]

The pic looks like Cinderella flanked by her two homely sisters.

ARKAY

[Turbocharged]

If you learn the pistol you can learn its recoil characteristics until follow up shots are second nature and muzzle flip isn't really noticeable. What I was happy to read was how impressed he was with the accuracy.

[EXCATM]

The pic looks like Cinderella flanked by her two homely sisters.

ARKAY

Step sisters theres obviously no blood relation there.

[08G37S]

So if he shot the HK45 in Condition 1 and I believe its the only pistol that is DA/SA and cocked and locked would put it in SA. That means a variable was added that differs from the other two. Probably doesn't make much of a difference for a distinguished professional but I have shot my roommate's MP45 and downright hate it firing it cause its DAO; therefore I have a differing experience firing a SA versus DA.

[quikz]

When I saw the title of the post & before I clicked on it, I said to myself...."Self, lemme guess, Hilton is gonna rate the HK45 on or near the bottom of this "test", hmmm...not to mention of course, two strikers vs. a hammer gun."

[KILO1-1]

I'd have to respectfully disagree with a couple of things. The HK mag release is the fastest design I have ever tried, but only if you use your finger not your thumb. The safety lever only becomes a problem if you try to shoot it with a high thumb hold, if you shoot low thumb it is a non issue as it takes a bit of preassure to decock the weapon. If you are using it as a safety and not a thumb shelf then you would never be atempting to dissengage it while trying to pull the trigger. perhaps if he were shooting with a low thumb the pogo stick problem may not exist as he could use the thumb to apply a more even grip to the gun. Granted, I'm not gonna argue technique with Hilton Yam he's been there and done that many more times than I. It just seems to me that with a high thumb grip on a HK all you would have is problems or a loose hold on the pistol.

+1. couldnt have said it better myself!

[Greg Bell]

The HK45 also has a few other issues of note. The Variant 1 decock/safety was often pushed down to the decock position (especially when shooting one handed), and required conscious effort not to decock the gun. If I wasn't careful, I could lock up the trigger trying to decock the hammer as I was pressing the trigger.

LOL, it sounds like a certain guru is blaming the tool for his mistakes.

[johnnfx13]

I've never had a problem with the mag release. I've learned to use my HK and Glocks. Each gun is designed differently so I think he was just to used to the traditional thumb style mag release. As pretty much everyone, but HK has the thumb release on the side of the grip.

He didn't go into a deep review about accuracy. which i think is pretty important with any gun. with recoil and all that stuff, each gun is different and you just have to learn how the tools you use behave.

BTW, HK45 is by far one of the best hand guns i've shoot to date. ran my 1st 100 rounds through mine yesterday and was surprise how well it preformed.

[retromullet]

It sounded to me like a fair review from his perspective. I can understand where he is coming from when he says a lot of the things he said; doesn't mean I agree.


I think a better summation would be, "Personal preference reigns supreme."

[ranburr]

I wouldn't get too worked up. Yam is queer for the M&P.

ranburr

[Talon66]

I wouldn't get too worked up. Yam is queer for the M&P.

ranburr

Yeah and so are Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn! Hilton Yam, Vickers and Hackathorn know guns! Yam simply gave his subjective impression of the three. I think it's very informative and allows someone shopping for a handgun for real work to be somewhat "better" informed. It's like reading a motorcycle review on the Yamaha R6, Honda 600RR and the GSX-R600. Just because the author doesn't choose the R6 doesn't mean it's not a great track weapon. Just like the pistols, each one has it's own characteristics and attributes. Much of what Hilton Yam has stated is what most of my buddies are telling me anyways before I even read this review. Thank you Ironchef for posting it. It's enlightening and informative. I have a great deal of respect for what guys like Hilton Yam have to say about fighting pistols.

For those of you not familiar with 10-8 Forums, you may want to check them out. Most of these guys depend on their guns' reliability and accuracy for work.

[Greg Bell]

Talon,

I wouldn't say Ken was "queer" for the M&P. Although he has praised it, and has used it in class, he describes it as a product-improved Glock. He also said that S&W was in the process of screwing it up (like they always do) and that the various firing pin breakage issues, trigger issues, etc were a sign of that.

[Talon66]

Talon,

I wouldn't say Ken was "queer" for the M&P. Although he has praised it, and has used it in class, he describes it as a product-improved Glock. He also said that S&W was in the process of screwing it up (like they always do) and that the various firing pin breakage issues, trigger issues, etc were a sign of that.

Fair enough Mr. Bell. Thank you for correcting me.

[ironchef]

happy to see the interesting conversation this thread has sparked. look forward to reading more. keep it coming folks, this is what makes our forum great!

[NiceHK]

It simultaneously bugs and amazes me that a plastic gun with a rubber O-ring around the end of a drop-in barrel can shoot as well as many hand fit custom 1911s.

Analysis of Hilton Yam HK45 review / Hilton Yam Polymer .45 comparison review

Honestly the way the review is written, it sounds like Mr. Yam has it in for the HK45. As you read the article notice the use of descriptive wording when the review outlines the HK45's negatives. The gun was a "chore" to shoot one handed. The gun had a "detached" feel. The shooters felt as if they were "spectators" when shooting the gun. The muzzle "bounced" around allot. The HK45 "wasn't all bad news". I can pick out a few more examples but my point is that when negatives were outlined in the other pistols, the negatives were gently laid down and not pointed out to such an extent.
For example when Hilton was speaking of the MP45's trigger, "Its trigger is useable but most specimens could benefit from some work", he gently alludes to the fact that if your planning to buy a MP your best advised to get a trigger job b/c it's pretty poor. Anyone that I have spoken to exudes this point as a must. Mr. Yam is very quick to paint a detailed and descriptive picture of the HK45 feeling very alien in ones hand and acting as if it was a wild bucking bronco.
It can not be ignored how super accurate the HK45 is and how much it "bugs" Hilton. Why should it bug him that the HK45 is designed so well that it rivals many high end custom 1911's. Well, the accuracy had to be said or the review would have sounded very one sided b/c everyone knows the HK45 is super accurate. However, again notice how much emphasis, the careful crafting of the words, the thought out angle of attack to void out the accuracy by depicting the gun to be this unmanageable tool.
I welcome any specialists input. I respect anyone's personal opinion. However, this type of writing to me honestly sounds like it had a agenda that simply was far more than just a comparison review.

[Omega Man]

LOL, it sounds like a certain guru is blaming the tool for his mistakes.
I agree. I never experienced any of these issues when fireing my HK45. Ive shot a Glock 21 in 45acp and used to own an XD45 and those guns felt like garbage in comparison to the HK45. With respect to recoil, accuracy, fireing one handed and weak handed. You name it and the HK blew them off the map. I also used to own a Sig 220 and i still have a TRP 1911 and the HK45 also has better feeling recoil than those as well. Overall the HK is the best 45 going right now. Thats my opinion based on shooting the 45's i mention. Is it not wierd that a guy at his level of skills would have trouble with the decocker? That dosen't add up to me.

[GTXR390]

So if he shot the HK45 in Condition 1 and I believe its the only pistol that is DA/SA and cocked and locked would put it in SA. That means a variable was added that differs from the other two. Probably doesn't make much of a difference for a distinguished professional but I have shot my roommate's MP45 and downright hate it firing it cause its DAO; therefore I have a differing experience firing a SA versus DA.


I thought striker fired isn't considered DA, or SA. it's in it's own class. read that somewhere...forgot where though.

MP45 trigger isn't the greatest, i own one...but it's pretty accurate as much a rookie as i am.

I remember shooting a Glock21C and it was really easy to shoot, even more accurate than my MP45.

MP45 is a good gun...but for me it took alotta time and practice to be able to shoot well with it.

Glock21C i just picked up and shot very well.

I don't have the luxury of trying a HK45 since i'm in PRK, but the closest thing i have to it is a P2000 and i love the way this pistol shooots. it's my favorite!!!

[Greg Bell]

NiceHK,

I am glad someone else pays attention to things like that. Out of respect, we can presume that Mr. Yam did this subconsciously.

Omega,

It may be that Hilton's extensive training is actually the problem. He has developed the habit of pressing down hard on his 1911's safety. This might be helpful with a 1911 (which is his true baby), but it can be problematic if you do it with an HK45. I wonder if other well-ingrained parts of his technique were the source of his problem controlling the HK45's recoil? Either way, I doubt a man who completed the Roger's Shooting school with a full-power 1911 needs any pointers from me. I would refer you to NiceHK's analysis if you are cynical.

[AKpredator]

That was not a very legitimate test of a platform. Usage begins with a holster presentation and if you are too lazy to swap holsters, that doesn't give a good impression. It's easy to carefully fit the gun into one's hands, then shoot it. With gloves, a drop or hip holster and under pressure, that is where it makes more sense.

I didn't see XD's, Glock 21SF, ragler USP 45 (or the awesome P9S:47:) on there either.

I think the better way to evaluate them is to shoot some kind of standards course (IDPA Classifier, FAM Qual) where time, score and handling can be noted. Have 5 different shooters of comparable skill try them all out.

In the end, the point is academic. They all work pretty well, they all shoot pretty well and no two shooters have the same hands or eyes. You have to find the one that fits yourself. Guns that can be fitted to your hand and adapted to suit your purpose are going to win out.

AKpredator

[swiseuf]

It would be interesting if someone could actually make a device that tested this high bore axis/difficult to double tap crap. Once and for all, I'd like to know what the data says rather than the subjective comments coming from "experts."

I get the impression that once certain buzzwords like "high bore axis" are introduced into the collective firearms vernacular, they get regurgitated way too often.

[SP89]

I met Hilton two years ago at a school re-union. He's a very nice guy and I think I recall him liking the German made pistols (we were idscussing Sigs and HKs at the time).

I can't discount his point of view. Now what'd be neat would be to see his take on the various HK .45s...

[dobe]

I think it is Yam's opinion, and it is pretty accurate according to his standards. It may be legitimate by his standards, espescially if he and his students are accustomed to shooting a low bore axis and a Glock/M&P style trigger. It only makes sense.

I was shooting my HK45 and 1911 yesterday. First, I shot my HK45, then one one of my 1911's also in .45 ACP. What I noticed is how much quicker it was to recover from the recoil of the 1911. But what I also understand is that it matters to what I am most accustomed. Jerry Miculek can shoot a DA revolver faster and more accurately than most people can shoot an auto. I can't think of many handguns with a higher bore axis than a DA revolver. Actually, I just compared my HK45 to a Smith Mod 25-5. The bore axis is about the same.

So, will I be selling the HK45 in favor of an M&P? No, I'll end up getting an HK P30 or P30L next year. But I may get an M&P for a BOB. I'd rather loose the M&P than one of my HK's.

[AKpredator]

A low-bore axis has nothing to do with accuracy. :1200000:

[johnnfx13]

I agree. I never experienced any of these issues when fireing my HK45. Ive shot a Glock 21 in 45acp and used to own an XD45 and those guns felt like garbage in comparison to the HK45. With respect to recoil, accuracy, fireing one handed and weak handed. You name it and the HK blew them off the map. I also used to own a Sig 220 and i still have a TRP 1911 and the HK45 also has better feeling recoil than those as well. Overall the HK is the best 45 going right now. Thats my opinion based on shooting the 45's i mention. Is it not wierd that a guy at his level of skills would have trouble with the decocker? That dosen't add up to me.

haha @ the decocker comment.

[Kost]

Wish he would have included the Taurus OSS, Springfield XD, and Sig 250 in the shootout, 3 pistols just dont cut it for reviews of this type - good to see the HK45 getting more press.

[LSP 972]

<<It simultaneously bugs and amazes me that a plastic pistol... can shoot as well as a cusstom fitted 1911.>>

That tells the tale, right there, guys.

His bedrock has been shaken; his faith wavers.

And that bothers him on a sub-conscious level.

I am not trying to minimize his skill, experience, etc. However, there are plenty of other folks out here in Forum Land who "depend upon on our pistols", and not all of us are bumpkins with minimal training.

Take that treatise/"review" for what it is; a well-written opinion. ;)

.

[dobe]

A low-bore axis has nothing to do with accuracy. :1200000:

The accuracy I just mentioned above was in reference to speed vs accuracy, which has much to do with recovery, which has much to do with bore axis.

[Greg Bell]

I agree that low bore-axis aids in shot recovery. However, top competition shooters like Bruce Gray have explained that, in their opinion, it is a much smaller part of the equation than is commonly assumed. For example, the 1911 does not have a particularly low bore-axis (quite similar to the HK45, actually) and it has been successful in competition. A lot of factors go into quick shot recovery.

Of course, all other things being equal, you would rather have lower bore axis. But when it comes down to most folks, they will neither be able to exploit the superior accuracy of the H&K or the quicker shot recovery of the M&P. The one thing that will be equal for everyone is that the H&K will, at the end of the day, be more durable. Very few people, however, need the level of sturdiness that the H&K brings to the table.

[steelshooter]

Those issues do not exist on newer M&P's.

Talon,
I wouldn't say Ken was "queer" for the M&P. Although he has praised it, and has used it in class, he describes it as a product-improved Glock. He also said that S&W was in the process of screwing it up (like they always do) and that the various firing pin breakage issues, trigger issues, etc were a sign of that.

[steelshooter]

A lot of people here are getting way bent out of shape as if Hilton's comments are a personal commentary on their choice of pistol. The idea that Hilton is upset at the accuracy of the HK 45 compared to a 1911 is just silly and is really reaching. Not to mention the pop psychology analyses of his thought processes in writing this article. I don't have any issues with the decocker myself but I do with the thumb safety location changing my grip to a less than optimal one. Also the muzzle flip and twist on the full size is not a good thing. However I don't have any of these issues with the HK 45c.

[Greg Bell]

Steelshooter,

What did Smith do to resolve the striker issue? Ken mentioned this about 6 months ago, and a buddy of mine is on his third striker in his M&P9. I also saw one go down with a busted striker at a class earlier this year. It seemed like the problem was pretty serious.

[steelshooter]

They are now made out of tool steel. if I remember correctly, and I may not, the firing pins were originally a MIM part. Also the triggers have gradually improved to the point where even the .45 triggers are not bad out of the box. Plus they have improved the finish making it more even as well as the finish on the mags that used to have rust issues. M&P's certainly had their share of issues over their first year or two but Smith has been pretty diligent about getting them fixed. i can understand why someone who knows about the history of Smith semi-automatic would be skeptical but they seem to be doing things right with the M&P and taking lessons learned. Having said that, one of the things I find remarkable about the HK 45/45c/P30 is just how few issue they have had right from their inception.

[Greg Bell]

I have always enjoyed shooting M&Ps. I even considered trading in my Glocks for one before I heard about all the teething problems they were having. Good to hear that Smith is working on the striker issue. Before, I kept reading that you should "buy a spare striker and use snap caps." That was a big "no go" for me.

[steelshooter]

Yeah I wasn't interested in doing that either.

[SIGtrarian]

Can't say I agree with the pogo stick remark. ;)That was exactly my first thought. With a relaxed but firm two handed grip, the front sight, for me, goes right back on target.

[SIGtrarian]

Talon,

I wouldn't say Ken was "queer" for the M&P. Although he has praised it, and has used it in class, he describes it as a product-improved Glock. He also said that S&W was in the process of screwing it up (like they always do) and that the various firing pin breakage issues, trigger issues, etc were a sign of that.

Fair enough Mr. Bell. Thank you for correcting me.He's only "bi" for it.

[steelshooter]

I had said earlier in the thread on M4.net where this was discussed that it pops back down for me and I can fire again on target. I don't need to "pull it" back on target as described in the review. I use a relaxed grip with all pistols of any type.

That was exactly my first thought. With a relaxed but firm two handed grip, the front sight, for me, goes right back on target.

[HKIWB]

I put a couple hundred rounds of Blazer Brass 230g through a relative's M&P 45 over the holidays. I didn't notice my double taps being any quicker or more accurate, but the M&P was noticably less accurate than my HK45 during slow fire. The M&P trigger was better than I was expecting after reading this review, and the ergonomics were pretty good, but it failed to feed a round that also choked the new S&W 1911 PD model we were shooting. It was extremely difficult to load the tenth round in the M&P mags, where my HK45 mags easily take 10 or 11 rounds without a mag loader. FWIW, all three of us were more accurate with the M&P than the 1911.

[NiceHK]

Took my p30L to the range this weekend and had the opportunity to shoot both the M&P and HK45 right after another. HK45 was more accurate for me. I preferred the HK45's recoil feel to the M&P. The HK45 came right back down to target on it's own. The M&P was perhaps a bit quicker. I looked over Hilton's article again after I got home scratching my head. One word popped into my head, exaggerated.

[nwusp45]

I didn't think it was all that bad. Besides, It's coming from a guy who didn't already know the mag release works better with the trigger finger, and many find it easier, faster, and better this way. It's of course very different and some people don't like it because they are not used to it. As for his decock "complaint", it seems he decided it's not ideal to go cocked and locked with variant 1. This is old news to regular USP/HK45 shooters, that's why V9 and 10 are available. Hilton Yam has a large following; I only wish he would have had a chance to talk with a regular HK shooter who would have educated him on these two particulars so he would have shot V9 and used his trigger from the beginning. That way we he could have shared his thoughts minus two things that have nothing to do with anything.

[nwusp45]

I didn't think it was all that bad. Besides, It's coming from a guy who didn't already know the mag release works better with the trigger finger, and many find it easier, faster, and better this way. It's of course very different and some people don't like it because they are not used to it. As for his decock "complaint", it seems he decided it's not ideal to go cocked and locked with variant 1. This is old news to regular USP/HK45 shooters, that's why V9 and 10 are available. Hilton Yam has a large following; I only wish he would have had a chance to talk with a regular HK shooter who would have educated him on these two particulars so he would have shot V9 and used his trigger from the beginning. That way we he could have shared his thoughts minus two things that have nothing to do with anything.

[jotie coyote]

Guys, not to change the subject, but just recieved my monthly Midway flyer. They're selling factory new HK mags this month. MP5 $55.99, HK45, HK45C,P2000, USPcompact, P30,P7M8, P7PSP, and USP mags.
I would have posted in the " H&K for Sale" , but I don't have the seniority yet to post a thread on my own. Maybe someone could. www.midwayusa.com
Hope this was helpful.

[Sidewinder6]

Talon,

I wouldn't say Ken was "queer" for the M&P. Although he has praised it, and has used it in class, he describes it as a product-improved Glock. He also said that S&W was in the process of screwing it up (like they always do) and that the various firing pin breakage issues, trigger issues, etc were a sign of that.

I believe we both saw that occur at a Ken's class earlier this year where a firing pin snapped. This is how the subject was brought up.

I do say, I learned about the bore axis difference from reading Hilton's write up. Although I dont consider the issue as he did, I recognize his comfort on the larger grip bothered him while shooting. I actually gravitated to the full size grip and larger backstrap when setting mine up. We actually shot together at a class just before he released his write up and he was happy with his M&P although he said he was learning the platform better. (His shooting was impeccable)

I have experienced the decocking issue he wrote about when I first got the pistol shooting retention drills. You have to learn the gun (again pointed out by other posters). Another self correcting error I persistantly have is having the gun bite my hand if I leave it anywhere within three feet of the breech face of chambering!

Now I have a $3K Nighthawk which, I consider a premiere 1911. The trigger is a thing of beauty.

But you know, the polymer frame (weight reduction) , recoil management (buffer) , relialibility, and magazine capacity account for serious points on the love scale for the HK. After a trigger job, I think they are close to equal and the accuracy of both guns is remarkable.

One other thing I have to mention is the complete defficiency in the factory sights at nighttime. They work for 30 minutes, then your shooting blind. This is unacceptable and I am happy to see more companies are finally getting around to making sights for these guns.

When I fingered the M&P ( in 9 and 45) , I feel the need for immediate after market Smith work and then the reliability issue we discussed effects me.

I am scarred by the early pistols by Smith. This ends my cool aid sipping for these guns until I shoot someones that convinces me otherwise. Right now, I trust my Glocks over the M&P's even though I share the optimistic feeling that American guns should fill American holsters.

YMMV

[Kenji]

Now I have a $3K Nighthawk which, I consider a premiere 1911. The trigger is a thing of beauty.



Both my wife and I have Nighthawk Customs. These are great guns and I agree that they are premiere 1911s and the triggers are great.

I would like to add, that I think the triggers on the Experts and the Elites are at least in the same class.

[BytorJr]

There is definitely more muzzle flip with any HK (save P7) vs Glock; nobody can argue that. However, one reason I chose to stick with HK despite their CS issues and sky-high prices is that magazine release. It is so much quicker than the side button it's scary. Folks that have trained for a few years with a button can't beat relative newbies with the finger technique on the HK...it's just that much quicker IMO. Get used to it, and you'll never go back.

[LSP 972]

... that magazine release. It is so much quicker than the side button it's scary. ...it's just that much quicker IMO. Get used to it, and you'll never go back.

Agree totally... by using the trigger finger to actuate it, you do not have to shift your grip AT ALL... even if you have small hands.

[amstaffHK]

It's obvious just by looking at the 2 (HK45 and M&P) that the HK has better ergonomics. If your talking about the mag release thats just personal preference.

[Sidewinder6]

Agree totally... by using the trigger finger to actuate it, you do not have to shift your grip AT ALL... even if you have small hands.


Try your bird finger. Trigger finger stays straight.

[NiceHK]

Try your bird finger. Trigger finger stays straight.

I also find it better for me to use the bird finger.

[steelshooter]

Really? Just by looking? The M&P has a lower bore axis and beavertail so it has much less muzzle rise. It's certainly a very comfortable and ergonomic pistol. My only issue with the M&P 45 vs the HK is in comparison the M&P looks and feels cheaper. In reality after the 1st year or so of bugs they are holding up very well and are extremely well liked. Try shooting one instead of just looking at pictures and see if your "obvious" opinion holds up.

It's obvious just by looking at the 2 (HK45 and M&P) that the HK has better ergonomics. If your talking about the mag release thats just personal preference.

[steelshooter]

I held off on HK's partly because they were so big and clunky with crappy triggers and CS and partly because I thought after 30+ years of side button mag releases the HK mag release would be too hard to get used to. But I was instantly hooked. I do not like the older HK mag releases because they are too small.

There is definitely more muzzle flip with any HK (save P7) vs Glock; nobody can argue that. However, one reason I chose to stick with HK despite their CS issues and sky-high prices is that magazine release. It is so much quicker than the side button it's scary. Folks that have trained for a few years with a button can't beat relative newbies with the finger technique on the HK...it's just that much quicker IMO. Get used to it, and you'll never go back.

[dtibbals]

I commented about this article on M4 carbine as well. I have never had an issue with the safety on my HK45, if its a big issue for someone they should be going to a V9 or the LEM. I find it interesting he will say send the S&W out for work to make it perfect and then kill the HK45 over stupid stuff but does not consider changing it over to a V9 or V10. That is something HK has them all beat on and that is being modular allowing it to be exactly what the shooter prefers. Most gun makers try to make one gun fit everyone and though many are starting to follow HK in making their guns more modular; HK is still far ahead of them. People also forget HK made the first polymer pistol, the first to use 3 dot sights and the first to place a forward accessory rail on a gun. Things have evolved since all of these first but HK has always been forward thinking. Smith and Wesson is trying to make a Glock copy and in my opinion has done a crappy job at it. HK has not tried to just build another Glock copy but rather raised the bar in many respects to the HK45 and P30.

The argument of the low bore axis in my opinion is crap. I have over 10k rounds through my HK45 now and it has been 100%. I shot it better then all of my Glocks which I have owned and shot for 13 plus years. It is more about how the gun fits your hands and how natural it shoots for you then some damn bore axis. There are lots of new M&P fans out there and while they can have their opinion that the M&P is the next best thing but I will not be spending my money on one. I have shot them and HATED the trigger, total crap! I also did not like the mag release at all and my over all opinion is I would not trade any of my Glock's for it let alone any of my HK's. I have personally watched M&P's break, drop mags when the shooter (who both where of a high skill level) did not want them to and have malfunctions related to either ammo or magazines. In fact I took a box of factory ammo a guy could not get his M&P to cycle at all and the HK45 fired the 40 or so rounds left in the box with zero problems. Bottom line is the HK45 works, does not have issues like the M&P or Glock 40's etc. But people who like the S&W will knock an HK45 for the stupidest and most nit picky reasons but will put up with the S&W having all the problems it has had plus one of the worst factory triggers I have ever felt (this is my opinion of 5 different M&P's I have tried). I have had no problems with double tapping my HK45 or any of my USP's. They all shoot well, point well, are comfortable to me and have the typical HK trigger that I have used for around 14 years and never had an issue with it. Some do not like the slack in the HK triggers and the over travel they have and while I can understand that it does not take long at all to shoot them well right from the beginning.

Bottom line is if you want a striker fired weapon buy a Glock or an XDm. If you are open minded to anything else buy something that says HK on it and be happy. There are many other fine weapons out there but in my opinion it is about impossible not to be able to fill your needs with either a Glock or an HK weapon.


Dave

[harrydog]

The argument of the low bore axis in my opinion is crap. I have over 10k rounds through my HK45 now and it has been 100%. I shot it better then all of my Glocks which I have owned and shot for 13 plus years. It is more about how the gun fits your hands and how natural it shoots for you then some damn bore axis. There are lots of new M&P fans out there and while they can have their opinion that the M&P is the next best thing but I will not be spending my money on one. I have shot them and HATED the trigger, total crap! I also did not like the mag release at all and my over all opinion is I would not trade any of my Glock's for it let alone any of my HK's. I have personally watched M&P's break, drop mags when the shooter (who both where of a high skill level) did not want them to and have malfunctions related to either ammo or magazines. In fact I took a box of factory ammo a guy could not get his M&P to cycle at all and the HK45 fired the 40 or so rounds left in the box with zero problems. Bottom line is the HK45 works, does not have issues like the M&P or Glock 40's etc. But people who like the S&W will knock an HK45 for the stupidest and most nit picky reasons but will put up with the S&W having all the problems it has had plus one of the worst factory triggers I have ever felt (this is my opinion of 5 different M&P's I have tried). I have had no problems with double tapping my HK45 or any of my USP's. They all shoot well, point well, are comfortable to me and have the typical HK trigger that I have used for around 14 years and never had an issue with it. Some do not like the slack in the HK triggers and the over travel they have and while I can understand that it does not take long at all to shoot them well right from the beginning.

Bottom line is if you want a striker fired weapon buy a Glock or an XDm. If you are open minded to anything else buy something that says HK on it and be happy. There are many other fine weapons out there but in my opinion it is about impossible not to be able to fill your needs with either a Glock or an HK weapon.


Dave

I agree with your statement above and that's why I don't like Glocks.
I owned a Glock 23, 19 and 17 but sold them several years ago. Just yesterday I rented a Glock 19 and 17 at the range to compare it to my M&P9. I had never tried a Gen. 3 Glock and figured maybe thay had improved on their ergonomics. Unfortunately it only proved that the Glock still felt horrible in my hand compared to either my HK45 or my M&P. I can shoot either of those guns much more accurately than I can any Glock. The M&P is a softer shooting gun as well. Also, the G19 wouldn't even fire a complete mag without jamming. I think it was a mag problem but it still just goes to show you that Glocks are not infallible.
Bottom line: I can shoot both my HK45 and my M&P far better than I can any Glock. Even though I prefer my HK45 to my M&P I still think the M&P is a fine handgun.

[LSP 972]

Try your bird finger. Trigger finger stays straight.

Tried it when I was first learning the thing.

Nope, the trigger finger works best for me.

.

[BillR]

NiceHK,

I am glad someone else pays attention to things like that. Out of respect, we can presume that Mr. Yam did this subconsciously.

Omega,

It may be that Hilton's extensive training is actually the problem. He has developed the habit of pressing down hard on his 1911's safety. This might be helpful with a 1911 (which is his true baby), but it can be problematic if you do it with an HK45. I wonder if other well-ingrained parts of his technique were the source of his problem controlling the HK45's recoil? Either way, I doubt a man who completed the Roger's Shooting school with a full-power 1911 needs any pointers from me. I would refer you to NiceHK's analysis if you are cynical.


Good point, he's probably used to the 1911 beavertail also , as an aid to quick recovery. Notice the S@W has a large one.

[NiceHK]

People also forget HK made the first polymer pistol, the first to use 3 dot sights and the first to place a forward accessory rail on a gun. Things have evolved since all of these first but HK has always been forward thinking.

Dave

First polymer, check. But first to use three dot sights and forward accessory rail is news to me. Pretty cool facts to know.

[dtibbals]

First polymer, check. But first to use three dot sights and forward accessory rail is news to me. Pretty cool facts to know.

Yup right from the book of HK.

[LCSO264]

yep, the USP line was the first factory handgun to come standard with an accessory rail. little did HK know, the 1913 rail would later become the industry standard, but they were the pioneers in pistol rail.

Now the three dot sights was news to me... but doesn't surprise me....

it is important to remember, HK manufactured the first polymer frame handgun in 1969-1970, with the VP70 (although now relegated to mostly a novelty/collectors handgun, I person like mine). A full 10+ years before the introduction of the Glock 17.

[Arnie100]

Hmmm...didn't know about the three dot sights, either! Interesting little trivia!

[Dumak]

NiceHK,

I am glad someone else pays attention to things like that. Out of respect, we can presume that Mr. Yam did this subconsciously.

Omega,

It may be that Hilton's extensive training is actually the problem. He has developed the habit of pressing down hard on his 1911's safety. This might be helpful with a 1911 (which is his true baby), but it can be problematic if you do it with an HK45. I wonder if other well-ingrained parts of his technique were the source of his problem controlling the HK45's recoil? Either way, I doubt a man who completed the Roger's Shooting school with a full-power 1911 needs any pointers from me. I would refer you to NiceHK's analysis if you are cynical.


GB,

Hilton's training is the problem. You are correct...

The whole concept of a gun tracking and returning to original point of aim is dependent on the shooter. Most every school of "thumbs forward' technique instructs shooters not to muscle the gun. The gun has to be allowed to do its own thing. Imparting force on the gun affects the gun's ability to return back to zero. Because of this, most schools teach to just let the thumb rest on the thumb safety.

When he mentions muzzle dance after recoil that is a clear sign that he wasn't using a neutral grip. He was fighting the recoil and that meant the HK45 didn't expend all of its recoil energy when the slide finished moving forward.

On heavier guns like 1911s that tend to have a lot of weight under the barrel or low bore axis guns you can have a sloppier technique. This is why low bore axis, striker fired guns, are becoming so popular.

[harrydog]

I've definitely noticed that a slightly more relaxed grip helps the sight get back on target quicker than an iron clad grip. I find this to be true with all pistols, not just the HK45.