P2000 V3 just got back from Bill Springfield...

[AviatorDave]

Mrs_Esterhouse and aaronsdb:

Firstly, it was a VERY serious and knowledgeable woman at BATF, a man at a regional US Postal Center, and a woman at my local US Post Office. . . not just one person.

Secondly, we were NOT discussing the mailing or shipment of HANDGUNS or any other firearms. We were strictly discussing the mailing of handgun PARTS to a gunsmith for repair or lawful modification. . . specifically in particular, a handgun FRAME.

Third, I don't know if you've bothered to look at Bill Springfield's site or if you are just speaking in general terms, but Bill ONLY asks for the handgun FRAME. No slide assy, no barrel, no mags, etc. to do his trigger-job. Another service he offers requires only your recoil assy.

Are you guys saying it is also illegal to mail him your recoil assy without going through an FFL dealer? . . . or are you just saying it is illegal to ship/mail the actual handgun? If you are only talking about mailing or shipping a handgun, then yes, you are correct in saying it must go to an FFL dealer. It would need to go UPS or FedEx (overnight but not because of the law, but because of shipping company policies) and may not be mailed through the US Postal system unless the sender is also an FFL dealer.

Falcon007 pointed out that:
"Any person who is engaged in the business of installing “drop in” replacement parts in or on existing, fully assembled firearms as described in this ruling must be licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, under the Gun Control Act"

Bill is not working on fully assembled firearms. He is working on firearm parts. :)

Here's what I see as the big missing link in your argument, and the reason you received the answers that you did: When you asked the post office and BATF, did you explain that the recipient does not have an FFL? It sounds like you said you were sending them to a gunsmith, which is of course legal.

But it appears from this thread that Bill Springfield is not a gunsmith. A gunsmith must be licensed, usually an FFL type Type 01, a Title 1 dealer or gunsmith.

But I'm going to go to the ATF on this one myself. It would sure help me out if people could just mail their stripped USC receivers from out of state straight to me, instead of the FFL I've been using.

So I hope you're correct on this, I really, really do. But it appears to defy everything written in USC 18 and GCA68.

The crux of it all will be whether or not in this one case, they have decided that the serialized frame or receiver is not a firearm, when for all other instances, the frame or receiver IS the firearm. This is what concerns me, specifically the last paragraph:

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pu...c_sect1715.pdf

[orfeo]

In my case 2 months ago, I was considering sending my frame from my CZ 75 SP-01 to Mathew Mink for a race trigger job. It so happens that he is a licensed FFL. Frankly, I am not 100% absolutely certain that I would have been allowed to send it to him if he wasn't. That may be something to be definitively clarified with the BATF.

I had been told by several "experts" that I could not mail the frame, nor any serialized parts through the US Postal system, not even to an FFL dealer, unless I was an FFL dealer myself (which would be totally accurate for a whole handgun). The big difference to ME was that the "experts" were dead wrong, and I could legally mail the frame through the Post Office with their blessing (and also the BATF) to my chosen gunsmith instead of having to pay 3x as much through UPS or FedEx as long as it wasn't a whole handgun.

If Bill needs to be an FFL to receive the handgun frames, then I hope he either gets his license back, or arranges for an FFL dealer he knows to receive them for him. :)

[ToddG]

A friend emailed me a link to this thread and asked me to offer some insight. FWIW, I've been in the firearms industry for about ten years, including three years working as the Law Enforcement Operations Manager at Beretta USA and five years as the Federal/Military Projects Manager at SIGARMS (now SIG-Sauer). As such, I've dealt with FFL/shipping issues on a daily basis for a very long time.

It seems there are two confusing points here.

First, HK serializes a number of different parts. This is due to foreign regulations and has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. For the purposes of shipping a firearm within the US, one part is declared the serialized firearm. For pistols, that is almost always the frame. (cf., SIG P250)

Second, again at least insofar as the immediate issue is concerned, the shipper need not be an FFL holder but the recipient must be (the recipient is then also allowed to ship it back to the owner, unless specific state law says otherwise).

So you can ship your barrel & slide anywhere you want. But if you ship the serialized frame of your HK pistol to someone who is not an FFL for the purpose of having it 'smithed, you've committed a crime.

Stay safe ...

--
Todd Louis Green
pistol-training.com

[Mrs_Esterhouse]

A friend emailed me a link to this thread and asked me to offer some insight. FWIW, I've been in the firearms industry for about ten years, including three years working as the Law Enforcement Operations Manager at Beretta USA and five years as the Federal/Military Projects Manager at SIGARMS (now SIG-Sauer). As such, I've dealt with FFL/shipping issues on a daily basis for a very long time.

It seems there are two confusing points here.

First, HK serializes a number of different parts. This is due to foreign regulations and has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. For the purposes of shipping a firearm within the US, one part is declared the serialized firearm. For pistols, that is almost always the frame. (cf., SIG P250)

Second, again at least insofar as the immediate issue is concerned, the shipper need not be an FFL holder but the recipient must be (the recipient is then also allowed to ship it back to the owner, unless specific state law says otherwise).

So you can ship your barrel & slide anywhere you want. But if you ship the serialized frame of your HK pistol to someone who is not an FFL for the purpose of having it 'smithed, you've committed a crime.

Stay safe ...

--
Todd Louis Green
pistol-training.com

Exactly!

[Carrots]

Thanks Todd, I am glad to see that we (or you all!) are bottoming this out. I will wait to hear back from AviatorDave but by the sounds of things far from being 'a waste of time' this thread has done us all a service, and for that I am grateful. Call me crazy but I like my liberty, my bank balance and being able to use my right to buy, own and shoot firearms. If the ATF confirm this then I will be happy to send my three to Bill once he has got himself back in the FFL loop.

[aaronsdb]

A friend emailed me a link to this thread and asked me to offer some insight. FWIW, I've been in the firearms industry for about ten years, including three years working as the Law Enforcement Operations Manager at Beretta USA and five years as the Federal/Military Projects Manager at SIGARMS (now SIG-Sauer). As such, I've dealt with FFL/shipping issues on a daily basis for a very long time.

It seems there are two confusing points here.

First, HK serializes a number of different parts. This is due to foreign regulations and has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. For the purposes of shipping a firearm within the US, one part is declared the serialized firearm. For pistols, that is almost always the frame. (cf., SIG P250)

Second, again at least insofar as the immediate issue is concerned, the shipper need not be an FFL holder but the recipient must be (the recipient is then also allowed to ship it back to the owner, unless specific state law says otherwise).

So you can ship your barrel & slide anywhere you want. But if you ship the serialized frame of your HK pistol to someone who is not an FFL for the purpose of having it 'smithed, you've committed a crime.

Stay safe ...

--
Todd Louis Green
pistol-training.com

Thanks Todd. This is exactly what we have been trying to say.

[orfeo]

Great thread by the way. . . and excellent posts by all.

So, it would seem that the bottom line is this:

1. Bill does not appear to need an FFL to be able to work on your handgun-frame, but he DOES need one to receive it from you directly (out of state), or at least he would need to have an FFL dealer recieve it from you on his behalf.

2. As far as shipping/mailing, you do not need to use an outgoing FFL dealer on your end as the sender of a handgun-frame.

3. An FFL dealer may mail an entire weapon through the US Postal Service but a non-FFL dealer may not.

4. A non-FFL dealer may mail a handgun frame through the US Postal Service, but ONLY to an FFL dealer. UPS or FedEx may also be used but they are MUCH more expensive than the US Postal Service.

5. Handgun parts other than the actual serialized frame may be mailed through the US Postal Service, UPS, or FedEx to a non-FFL dealer.

6. These are all Federal-law guidelines. The particular states involved may or may not be MUCH more prohibitive on certain particulars (ie: California, New Jersey, and New York come to mind). :)

[orfeo]

Mrs_Esterhouse and aaronsdb, I apologize if anything I said before offended you. . . and thanks for all your patient input. :)

[aaronsdb]

Great thread by the way. . . and excellent posts by all.

So, it would seem that the bottom line is this:

1. Bill does not appear to need an FFL to be able to work on your handgun-frame, but he DOES need one to receive it from you directly (out of state), or at least he would need to have an FFL dealer recieve it from you on his behalf.

2. As far as shipping/mailing, you do not need to use an outgoing FFL dealer on your end as the sender of a handgun-frame.

3. An FFL dealer may mail an entire weapon through the US Postal Service but a non-FFL dealer may not.

4. A non-FFL dealer may mail a handgun frame through the US Postal Service, but ONLY to an FFL dealer. UPS or FedEx may also be used but they are MUCH more expensive than the US Postal Service.

5. Handgun parts other than the actual serialized frame may be mailed through the US Postal Service, UPS, or FedEx to a non-FFL dealer.

6. These are all Federal-law guidelines. The particular states involved may or may not be MUCH more prohibitive on certain particulars (ie: California, New Jersey, and New York come to mind). :)

Very good summation. Thanks.

[Mrs_Esterhouse]

Mrs_Esterhouse and aaronsdb, I apologize if anything I said before offended you. . . and thanks for all your patient input. :)

No worries. I wish the law was not the way it is, but until it changes, I didn't want to see anyone get into trouble they didn't even realize they were getting into.