G17 vs. USPc 40 S&W

[Wizz]

Originally Posted by Sleeper 362

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Glocks are not perfect, far from it.

Many professionals and amateur shooters would disagree with that. There is no other semi auto that has less issues than Glocks in standard 9mm and .40 calibers...not a Sig (I own a Sig), 1911s are junk for the most part unless you spend big money and tinker with them constantly, and HK is the only proven semi-auto that comes close or is on par with Glock for reliability, no one comes close to Glock for simplicity. One of my instructors who owned a range cleaned their rental Glocks only every 10,000 rounds with no issues.

Also the DA pull on HKs is one of the worst out of all quality SA/DA semi-auto pistols, it's horrendous especially for a $900 gun, with Glocks you at least get the same moderate trigger pull each time. I love my HK but I would hate to have to put it up against my 15 year old G19 if I had to pick just one to carry. Not to mention you can have two Glocks for the price of one HK...and HK doesn't give you twice the gun for twice the price.

[Wvladimire]

Originally Posted by Wizz

Many professionals and amateur shooters would disagree with that. There is no other semi auto that has less issues than Glocks in standard 9mm and .40 calibers...not a Sig (I own a Sig), 1911s are junk for the most part unless you spend big money and tinker with them constantly, and HK is the only proven semi-auto that comes close or is on par with Glock for reliability, no one comes close to Glock for simplicity. One of my instructors who owned a range cleaned their rental Glocks only every 10,000 rounds with no issues.

Also the DA pull on HKs is one of the worst out of all quality SA/DA semi-auto pistols, it's horrendous especially for a $900 gun, with Glocks you at least get the same moderate trigger pull each time. I love my HK but I would hate to have to put it up against my 15 year old G19 if I had to pick just one to carry. Not to mention you can have two Glocks for the price of one HK...and HK doesn't give you twice the gun for twice the price.

I was never a fan of guns that you don't have to clean. My grand daddy always said, "a reliable firearm is a clean firearm." With that said the tolerances in a gun that will shoot when absolutely filthy in a combat situation is something the average shooter is not going to encounter.

For the money a Glock is a good shooting gun. But they are not perfect. Having worked on many Glocks through work and training, there are parts in them that are just plain cheap. Plain and simple fact. It's like comparing a Norinco SKS and a Russian or Yugo one. For the money, the Norinco is a good shooter. But for a little more money, you get a better quality and craftsmanship in the Russian or Yugo model.

As far as 1911's being junk, I would say four wars and the standard issue side arm for the US military speaks for itself. While a mil-spec 1911 will work and be reliable it is not going to give you the best accuracy. Combat accuracy is a pie plate group at 25 yards for hand guns. Big difference when compared to professional shooter requirements. Most out of the box 1911's do shoot well and are reliable. It's only when inexperienced tinkerers work on them that they have problems. And yes, if you want a higher end 1911, you are going to pay for all the hand fitting and the quality of the parts used.

The best hand gun manufacturer's today in my opinion are exactly in this order. HK, Sig, and Walther Germany, Ruger is the only US manufacturer that will make my list because for one, they have the strongest frames on the market, and even their semi auto's though ugly are built like tanks. They are not pretty, but they do work and are reliable.

The reason why the German companies make the top of my list is due to the quality of the parts used internally. Compare the trigger return spring of any of these pistols to the Glock and you will see a big difference in quality. The Glock spring is thinner and just feels cheap to the touch. Compare the barrel of the HK and Glock together. Even though both use polyognal rifling, the HK barrel feels heavier than the Glock and the bore is like a mirror inside, while you can see slight tool marks in the Glock.

I concede to the point that HK DA trigger pull is terrible, but there are trigger kits that can improve this. And while Glock has built in safeties or Safe Action Pistol as they call it. I find it disturbing that one would refer to their trigger system as safe. The Glock is the only pistol that can fire while out of battery. And a safety, technically, is a manual device that one must manually engage or disengage in order to make the pistol fire. The 1911 has a thumb safety and a grip safety, without these two safeties being disengaged, the pistol cannot fire. I would say the 1911 is a more safe pistol to carry than a Glock with no manual safety. Also HK has the control lever, a manual safety that de-cocks the hammer, and it acts as a manual safety too. While the Sig P series of pistols have a de-cocker lever with no manual safety.

Now I'm not taking anything away from Glock. For the money they are good shooters. You might say they are the Kia's of the gun world. But when you buy an HK, Sig, or Walther Germany handgun you are getting the Lexus, Cadillac, BMW, or Mercedes of the gun world. The quality and craftsmanship is better than the Glock. But sometimes their is no reasoning with belief. IF the Glock was so great, then every military or police department in the world would be using them. But the honest answer is, they don't. Why, because the Glock has failed some sort of safety or reliability issue with all of them. Every European police force carries a CZ, not a Glock. And many police forces here in the US have or have switched from the Glock. It's good, but not great.

[FChen17213]

Everyone will have their own unique opinion. I personally like the Glock trigger way better than both the HK and Sig. The reset is so much shorter and more distinct. In terms of recoil, the Glock shoots very mildly. The USP does too, but I do not feel any more recoil out of a Glock than I do a USP. Especially a G17 compared to a USP40c. I will say that a USP 40F may feel tamer than a G22, but that's sort of subjective too.

I do not find the craftmanship any better on a USP than I do a Glock. Sorry guys. More expensive doesn't always mean better craftsmanship. When I field strip a Sig, HK, Glock, or FN, they all seem about the same to me. Compared to an M&P, I do somewhat feel that the quality seems slightly better, but that's just my pure intuition. That being said, I love the M&P as well.

There's no way I could compare a Glock to a Kia in terms of quality. A Glock would be more like a Honda or Toyota. An HK would be like a BMW....maybe, maybe not. Maybe a Nighthawk 1911 or Baer would be a BMW or Benz. A Ferrari would be a $5000 Full House Custom 1911 I guess.

I don't think anyone can say that one combat pistol such as a Sig, HK, Glock, or M&P is more accurate than another in particular. All of these guns will shoot around 2.5" at 25 yards or less provided the user does their part. While some of you may shoot your HKs better than your Sigs or Glocks, there are plenty that shoot their Glocks or Sigs better than their HKs. Most all of these guns shoot way better than most of us do.

[MONEY]

Fact: More Police in the USA use Glock pistols than any other brand by far. You say if Glock was so great, then every military or police department in the world would be using them? Well maybe it is for the same reason they all do not all use HK,s or Sig. And as far as comparing a Glock to a KIA that is just plain stupid and I also agree that that Sigs are great weapons as long as they were made in Germany (not the USA made ones). My Glock pistols are just as reliable and accurate as my HK pistols and are not as expensive. The Glocks also have less moving parts than the Hk which could also mean less chance of failure. The HK is a more complex design while the Glock is a more simple design but complex does not allways mean it is better. Do I favor my HK,s more than my Glocks ? Yes I do but not enough to worry about carrying a gun with a HK (Mercades) logo on it.

[Sleeper 362]

Yall take your glocks in your hand and shake them side to side. You here all that rattling? It sounds like maracas. Do the same with your H&K, I promise you hear next to nothing or nothing at all. That is called quality in craftsmanship. And to those who said glock is used by more police departments than any other. That is about to change, I know here in NC every dept. that still uses glocks is making the switch to M&P and the NCHP actually dropped their glocks years ago in favor if SIGs.

[Wvladimire]

Have to add my two cents here. Like I said, for the money, a Glock is a good shooter. Comparing the Glock to a KIA is an accurate description. While a Glock has less moving parts, they also have cheaply made platic parts that are not glass filled nylon. Example, the spring loaded bearing is a cheap plastic part that works the extractor. The firing pin channel liner and spacer sleeve are cheap plastic, as well as the spring cups. The connector is tool steel but made cheap by being a thin stamped part. When compared to Hk, Sig, and Walther Germany. And when you compare the Glock extractor to an HK or Sig, you can visually see a difference in quality. And that the Glock falls short. Yes the Kia is a good comparison to Glock quality. The cars are cheaply made but they work and are reliable.

Most American made handgun manufacturer's use MIM parts. When MIM is manufactured correctly, it is very hard and will dull carbide bits. But most of the time, MIM falls short. The only thing worse than a MIM part in my opinion, is a cheap plastic part. The Glock design is simple yes. But the HK USP & Sig P series of pistols are based on Browning's 1911 and Hi-Power designs. Both designs are very reliable and have proven themselves far longer than Glock's have been around.

And yes at one time more Police departments here in the US were issued a Glock. But that is changing. LA SWAT uses a Kimber SIS Pro, Federal tac teams use a Springfield TRP Pro, Federal Agencies use Sig's, LVPD use Sig, OSP use Sig, and more and more police departments are switching to a pistol with a manual safety device. There are far more accidental discharges with a Glock then there ever were with a properly loaded 1911. Another reason police departments are switching is the problem that the Glock will fire out of battery. Some departments have had accidental discharges with the officer entering or exiting their vehicle. If I were to bet my life on a handgun I would want it to have all metal internals compared to mostly plastic.

[Wizz]

Originally Posted by Wvladimire

Have to add my two cents here. Like I said, for the money, a Glock is a good shooter. Comparing the Glock to a KIA is an accurate description. While a Glock has less moving parts, they also have cheaply made platic parts that are not glass filled nylon. Example, the spring loaded bearing is a cheap plastic part that works the extractor. The firing pin channel liner and spacer sleeve are cheap plastic, as well as the spring cups. The connector is tool steel but made cheap by being a thin stamped part. When compared to Hk, Sig, and Walther Germany. And when you compare the Glock extractor to an HK or Sig, you can visually see a difference in quality. And that the Glock falls short. Yes the Kia is a good comparison to Glock quality. The cars are cheaply made but they work and are reliable.

Most American made handgun manufacturer's use MIM parts. When MIM is manufactured correctly, it is very hard and will dull carbide bits. But most of the time, MIM falls short. The only thing worse than a MIM part in my opinion, is a cheap plastic part. The Glock design is simple yes. But the HK USP & Sig P series of pistols are based on Browning's 1911 and Hi-Power designs. Both designs are very reliable and have proven themselves far longer than Glock's have been around.

And yes at one time more Police departments here in the US were issued a Glock. But that is changing. LA SWAT uses a Kimber SIS Pro, Federal tac teams use a Springfield TRP Pro, Federal Agencies use Sig's, LVPD use Sig, OSP use Sig, and more and more police departments are switching to a pistol with a manual safety device. There are far more accidental discharges with a Glock then there ever were with a properly loaded 1911. Another reason police departments are switching is the problem that the Glock will fire out of battery. Some departments have had accidental discharges with the officer entering or exiting their vehicle. If I were to bet my life on a handgun I would want it to have all metal internals compared to mostly plastic.

So which of these 'cheaply' made Glock parts actually break???...I have not heard anyone say they break nor have they been breaking. What about the plastic trigger on HKs that FLEXES during the DA pull (that's embarrassing)...now that is ultimate cheap feeling. Glock parts may be 'cheap', but they've proven never to break nor do they flex, they simply work...and that's why most LEOs chose Glocks and will continue to chose Glocks.

And 1911s jam on their own consistently...seen it countless times, no additional tinkering required. I've even seen $2,500 Wilson Combat 1911s have issues (felt bad for the owner). My G19 has not had one single malfunction in 15 years of regular shooting, I've dropped it into hot-tubs and onto concrete numerous times and I don't have to cringe or clean it when it happens, I just pick it up, make sure the night sight inserts didn't crack, and then just let it air dry until the next training session...b/c it's a Glock. Only 'issue' it experienced was a box of Federal target ammo that had three dead primers, which wouldn't fire out of other pistols when we tried to make sure it wasn't a light strike.

The only reason the 1911 worked back in the day is b/c the military designed it for round nose steel cased 200gr ammo (the 1911 wasn't designed around 230gr ammo, the military requested 230gr), and even then it wasn't 100%. Now go feed that same 1911 some modern 230gr jacketed hollow points and steel cased ammo and we'll see how it does, it will get a stove-pipe at some point, and don't forget to clean that 1911 after every range session. A good pistol hardly needs to be cleaned, that's the whole point of a good combat pistol...minimal to no cleaning required for it to function. My buddy has a stock Kimber Pro Carry and it's had a couple FTEs, while we were talking about the FTEs he said, "It's no Glock." That's why the military chose the M9 and why a majority of LEOs use Glocks (my good buddy is an instructor at the LAPD academy and they still suggest/prefer Glocks). The military just had an option to replace the M9 with something else and they passed, says it all.

I agree as well, I wouldn't touch an American made pistol...I prefer quality, which means not made in the USA.

[Sleeper 362]

Well I guess I will sum it up the way the gun range owner explained it. The Glock is the best gun you can buy for less than 500. For the record him and his son both carry P30s for protection when they are working at the range.

[sig1473]

Fact: The most widely used military sidearm in the world is the CZ-75.